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Cymru Lions v Wallabies, 3rd Test Match Thread, Sat July 6, 1100am

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    #1382
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Indeed they were. But Gatty has been a massive success, he will be able to name his price for the next tour, and I for one wouldn't bet against him winning the series either.

    I would. If the Lions dish up the same medicine during the tests in NZ, it'll be 0-3...again. At least NZ has decent props, so Gatland will need a Plan B.


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    #1383
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Le vieux renard wrote: »
    I would. If the Lions dish up the same medicine during the tests in NZ, it'll be 0-3...again. At least NZ has decent props, so Gatland will need a Plan B.

    They won't, Gatty is far too professional for that. He'd target any weakness the ABs may have.


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    #1384
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Rightwing wrote: »
    They won't, Gatty is far too professional for that. He'd target any weakness the ABs may have.

    He found it hard enough to target the obvious weaknesses that the wallabies had, he's going to struggle to find any with the AB's


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    #1385
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Lelantos wrote: »
    He found it hard enough to target the obvious weaknesses that the wallabies had, he's going to struggle to find any with the AB's

    He knew what the weakness was, but they couldn't execute it until the last game for a few reasons.

    There's no doubt v ABs would be the ultimate challenge for any coach.


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    #1386
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    He knew what the weakness was, but they couldn't execute it until the last game for a few reasons.

    There's no doubt v ABs would be the ultimate challenge for any coach.

    Reasons such as?

    Most of the reasons didn't play like they did in the last twenty minutes of the third test were down to no one else but Gatland (Phillips on the field, the constant garryowens, rarely going wide off quick ball)


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    #1387
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Reasons such as?

    Most of the reasons didn't play like they did in the last twenty minutes of the third test were down to no one else but Gatland (Phillips on the field, the constant garryowens, rarely going wide off quick ball)

    No one else but Gatland?


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    #1388
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No one else but Gatland?

    Well I assume he had a big say in the way the Lions played......

    Actually I did phrase that awkwardly, my point was that had Gatland matched the physicality of his pack with the lethal finishing of the backs only really evident in the last 20 minutes of the series the Lions would have won at a canter


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    #1389
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Refs & injuries would appear the obvious ones.


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    #1390
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Refs & injuries would appear the obvious ones.

    refs? In what sense?

    Injuries had an impact on the Lions, but it didn't force them to play ultra conservative for the first two tests. What injuries would you say forced them to hold back on keeping the ball in hand until the last twenty minutes of the third test?


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    #1391
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    Blaming Lions' struggles on injuries is absolutely ridiculous. If half the Australian team didn't get injured in the first test they would have won. And they were without 2 of their best backrowers, Higginbotham and Pocock, for the whole series.


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    #1392
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    matthew8 wrote: »
    Blaming Lions' struggles on injuries is absolutely ridiculous. If half the Australian team didn't get injured in the first test they would have won. And they were without 2 of their best backrowers, Higginbotham and Pocock, for the whole series.

    I agree fully, that's why I didn't hear Gatty mention injuries. Far bigger pool to choose from than the Aussies.


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    #1393
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Refs & injuries would appear the obvious ones.
    Rightwing wrote: »
    I agree fully, that's why I didn't hear Gatty mention injuries. Far bigger pool to choose from than the Aussies.

    But were you not saying two posts ago that injuries were one of the reasons the Lions couldn't exploit the weaknesses in the Wallabies side?:confused:


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    #1394
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Gatland came close to f*cking it up. He won the series, well done on that but I by no means think he's in any way a massive favourite for the next series. He had a genuine opportunity to go for a clean sweep tour which would have been truly brilliant.

    As it stands, he won the test series which was a solid and decent result and needlessly lost a warm up game.

    Gatland will have to up his performance with Wales if he wants the job again. Before the WC, he publicly admitted that he expected to be sacked if they didn't make a serious impression. The only thing that kept him there that long was the fact he signed a massive 4 year deal initially. Wales were very average in the 2010 and 2011 6N. People forget that Ireland, who were heavily criticised during those periods, finished ahead of Wales 3 years in a row before Gatland saved his job by beating Ireland in the RWC.

    He's a great coach but extremely fallible and I cannot see, in any way, a combination of his coaching and the current players in these islands being near good enough to strike anything beyond curiosity let alone fear into NZ rugby.


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    #1395
    duckysauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭duckysauce


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Refs & injuries would appear the obvious ones.

    The Aussies could say the same thing


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    #1396
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    duckysauce wrote: »
    The Aussies could say the same thing

    No doubt about that, but before this series, the question was, would the Lions be able to bully the aussies off the field up front.

    In the crucial 3rd test, they proved they were. Maybe if Corb'o was still injured etc they mightn't have had, but there ifs and buts.


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    #1397
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    All well and good saying Gatland would adapt to a NZ tour, don't think there's any debate that the Lions would have been heavily beaten playing that brand of rugby in NZ, but I genuinely don't think he's capable of employing that kind of complex game plan required to beat the best side in the world over a test series


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    #1398
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    Buer wrote: »
    Gatland came close to f*cking it up. He won the series, well done on that but I by no means think he's in any way a massive favourite for the next series. He had a genuine opportunity to go for a clean sweep tour which would have been truly brilliant.

    As it stands, he won the test series which was a solid and decent result and needlessly lost a warm up game.

    Gatland will have to up his performance with Wales if he wants the job again. Before the WC, he publicly admitted that he expected to be sacked if they didn't make a serious impression. The only thing that kept him there that long was the fact he signed a massive 4 year deal initially. Wales were very average in the 2010 and 2011 6N. People forget that Ireland, who were heavily criticised during those periods, finished ahead of Wales 3 years in a row before Gatland saved his job by beating Ireland in the RWC.

    He's a great coach but extremely fallible and I cannot see, in any way, a combination of his coaching and the current players in these islands being near good enough to strike anything beyond curiosity let alone fear into NZ rugby.

    Couldn't put it better myself. The only conclusion that can confidently be made about the 3rd test is that Alexander can't scrum against good props. Wales v Ireland, Gatland v Schmidt will be a great watch.


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    #1399
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    No doubt about that, but before this series, the question was, would the Lions be able to bully the aussies off the field up front.

    In the crucial 3rd test, they proved they were. Maybe if Corb'o was still injured etc they mightn't have had, but there ifs and buts.

    Which is not a good indictment of Gatland as his coach, more or less the whole series heavily dependent on a loosehead prop

    The Lions didn't need to settle for winning three tests with their scrummaging, they had a squad capable of actually playing rugby. But that would have required invention and risk, something not on the menu as far as Gatland was concerned


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    #1400
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Another thing Gatty did that was clever was drop BOD.

    It was harsh on BOD, but lulled the aussies into a false sense of security, when in fact the likes of BOD/Davies were never going to be match winner. It galvanised the welsh lads.

    As a lions fan, would I take to NZ: Yes. Absolutely.


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    #1401
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Another thing Gatty did that was clever was drop BOD.

    It was harsh on BOD, but lulled the aussies into a false sense of security, when in fact the likes of BOD/Davies were never going to be match winner. It galvanised the welsh lads.

    As a lions fan, would I take to NZ: Yes. Absolutely.

    Firstly, why on earth would he drop BOD to galvanise the Welsh players? That would do nothing but piss off the rest of the squad

    And tbh, going by the comments from some of the players since it seems it did just that

    Neither Davies or BOD were going to be match winners, because the game plan didn't allow it, so the putting BOD out of the team changes nothing really bar you get a worse defender at 13

    It's for this reason I really still can't make sense of the decision, all it seems to have done is leave a sour taste for a lot of fans and now it seems players

    I ask again, how was it something he should be applauded for?


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    #1402
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Dropping BOD had absolutely no bearing on the game Rightwing. It was not a clever or ballsy move in the slightest and people need to stop thinking it was.


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    #1403
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Teferi wrote: »
    Dropping BOD had absolutely no bearing on the game Rightwing. It was not a clever or ballsy move in the slightest and people need to stop thinking it was.

    It was ballsy. No doubting that. It wasn't clever though.


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    #1404
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Buer wrote: »
    It was ballsy. No doubting that. It wasn't clever though.

    I don't think it was ballsy in the way people are talking about it though - as though Gatland had some tricks up his sleeve.


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    #1405
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,038 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Teferi wrote: »
    Dropping BOD had absolutely no bearing on the game Rightwing. It was not a clever or ballsy move in the slightest and people need to stop thinking it was.

    Of course it was ballsy, however it may not have been clever.

    It might have lead Australia to focus elsewhere than their biggest weakness - their scrum. If it did I seriously doubt it was the reason for dropping Brian.


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    #1406
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,885 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Which is not a good indictment of Gatland as his coach, more or less the whole series heavily dependent on a loosehead prop

    The Lions didn't need to settle for winning three tests with their scrummaging, they had a squad capable of actually playing rugby. But that would have required invention and risk, something not on the menu as far as Gatland was concerned

    It was his 3rd choice loosehead to be fair. Gatland's main aim was winning the series and he did that. Playing flowing rugby against some of the world's best backs seems like a bad idea. People keep slagging of Gatland but there are few coaches at his level (there are a few but an entire list is hard to come up with). At the moment he is the only valid candidate for NZ, Lancaster and Schmidt have the chance to throw their name in the hat over the next 4 years, not many others really.

    Yes these tactics would have lost us the series in NZ but he designed them with Australia in mind. He went with what he knew and really the nations play different styles of rugby making a gel with a good mix of nations a poor play as too many will be playing in an unfamiliar system. The lions will get destroyed by NZ in 4 years barring a rash of injuries for NZ or some insane talent coming forward. They are too good. The only player the lions had that would make a full strength NZ squad is O'Driscoll and even then Conrad Smith is only slightly worse and might be better. A couple would challenge for bench spots but not the starting team.


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    #1407
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Christy42 wrote: »
    It was his 3rd choice loosehead to be fair. Gatland's main aim was winning the series and he did that. Playing flowing rugby against some of the world's best backs seems like a bad idea. People keep slagging of Gatland but there are few coaches at his level (there are a few but an entire list is hard to come up with). At the moment he is the only valid candidate for NZ, Lancaster and Schmidt have the chance to throw their name in the hat over the next 4 years, not many others really.

    Yes these tactics would have lost us the series in NZ but he designed them with Australia in mind. He went with what he knew and really the nations play different styles of rugby making a gel with a good mix of nations a poor play as too many will be playing in an unfamiliar system. The lions will get destroyed by NZ in 4 years barring a rash of injuries for NZ or some insane talent coming forward. They are too good. The only player the lions had that would make a full strength NZ squad is O'Driscoll and even then Conrad Smith is only slightly worse and might be better. A couple would challenge for bench spots but not the starting team.


    Why? It seemed to work in the last 15 minutes of the third test, which was the only consistent ambition shown by the Lions in the test series

    And surely holding onto the ball rather than leaving the Wallabies have it for the majority of the series would be a better tactic if neutralizing the Aussie backline was the concern ?(not that they did much with the vast amounts of ball they had, which is largely down to poor coaching and playing a 15 at 10)


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    #1408
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Christy42 wrote: »
    It was his 3rd choice loosehead to be fair. Gatland's main aim was winning the series and he did that. Playing flowing rugby against some of the world's best backs seems like a bad idea. People keep slagging of Gatland but there are few coaches at his level (there are a few but an entire list is hard to come up with). At the moment he is the only valid candidate for NZ, Lancaster and Schmidt have the chance to throw their name in the hat over the next 4 years, not many others really.

    Yes these tactics would have lost us the series in NZ but he designed them with Australia in mind. He went with what he knew and really the nations play different styles of rugby making a gel with a good mix of nations a poor play as too many will be playing in an unfamiliar system. The lions will get destroyed by NZ in 4 years barring a rash of injuries for NZ or some insane talent coming forward. They are too good. The only player the lions had that would make a full strength NZ squad is O'Driscoll and even then Conrad Smith is only slightly worse and might be better. A couple would challenge for bench spots but not the starting team.

    I couldn't agree with your 1st paragraph more. We'll see how Schmidt & Lancaster get on v Gatty in the 6Nations.


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    #1409
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I couldn't agree with your 1st paragraph more. We'll see how Schmidt & Lancaster get on v Gatty in the 6Nations.

    And the outcome of those games will have no baring on who will manage a tour 4 years down the line

    Declan Kidney was widely touted as a strong favorite after the 09 tour and look how that went


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    #1410
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,885 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I think he means over the next few years as presumably the last 6 nations matches before they pick the manager will have an effect.


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    #1411
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Christy42 wrote: »
    I think he means over the next few years as presumably the last 6 nations matches before they pick the manager will have an effect.

    That's exactly it. Kidney was able for H cups, fell on the international sword. Let's see how Schmidt will to. We know Gatty has mastered both club and international level. Safe pair of hands imo.


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