Cymru Lions v Wallabies, 3rd Test Match Thread, Sat July 6, 1100am

JagerScout

And if Brian O'Driscoll had started they wouldn't have won the test series? Come on.

Jonathan Davies was not the reason they won the series, just like Gatland.

irishbucsfan

JagerScout wrote: »

And if Brian O'Driscoll had started they wouldn't have won the test series? Come on.

Jonathan Davies was not the reason they won the series, just like Gatland.

Ah no I don't mean that. I'm not talking about that decision, I'm talking about the game plan.

JagerScout

gameplan was fine and all, limited but fine. Got the series win so no one can complain.

Buer

andyman wrote: »

The Lions lost the series in 2009 against South Africa, but Geech brought back the tradition of the Lions and it resulted in 3 wonderful exhibitions in rugby union and it was something that we (arguably) hadn't seen since 1997. Geech built a plan around the best in the team, Gatland built a team around the plan only he knows.

Do people remember the 1997 tour? That side was absolutely based on taking points and winning with kicks. McGeechan picked a pack to go toe to toe with the Boks, take them on in the set piece and win shots at goal for Jenkins. Three tests, three tries. History has been massively kind to those tests because they won.

McGeechan coached the 1993 Lions where he selected 11 England players to start. Three tests, two tries scored. Massive pack, England absolutely dominated the team and Gavin Hastings was there to just kick absolutely everything. Drop goal specialist and kicker at outhalf.

He coached a dull as dishwater Lions side to a 2-1 win in 1989 that had a thug as captain (and a pack with just the same in the likes of Richards, Ackford, Moore and Dooley). He played pragmatic rugby to win. Hastings at full back and drop goal specialist and kicker at outhalf. They only won the test series because of arguably the single greatest howler in living memory by Campese.

Gatland's tactics have not been popular nor entertaining in the opening two tests but this is nothing different to what has gone before. The Lions do not have a tradition based in running rugby.

Grandpa Hassan

Buer wrote: »

McGeechan coached the 1993 Lions where he selected 11 England players to start. Three tests, two tries scored. Massive pack, England absolutely dominated the team and Gavin Hastings was there to just kick absolutely everything. Drop goal specialist and kicker at outhalf.

.

You beat me to it.

Previous tours have fielded test teams with the same kind of concentration in one country as Gatland this time round. And there has never been this much moaning

The reality is that many people just resent Gatland because of the call he made about the centres. And the welsh make up of the team is a convenient stick with which to beat him

If BOD had played nowhere near as many people would be complaining about the welsh focus

Rest assured, despite what people say, this is just about BOD

Grimebox

Winning is all that matters to every member of coaching staff and to every player on every tour...

danthefan

JagerScout wrote: »

despondent? bit much.


also Lions =/= Ireland in terms of emotion, pride and investment

Bolded bit is definitely true.

thomond2006

danthefan wrote: »

Bolded bit is definitely true.

Absolutely. John Hayes played for Ireland and he didn't play for this Lions team.

.ak

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

You beat me to it.

Previous tours have fielded test teams with the same kind of concentration in one country as Gatland this time round. And there has never been this much moaning

The reality is that many people just resent Gatland because of the call he made about the centres. And the welsh make up of the team is a convenient stick with which to beat him

If BOD had played nowhere near as many people would be complaining about the welsh focus

Rest assured, despite what people say, this is just about BOD

Is it? Because people were making the same noise before the 3rd test. I don't think that's fair. Not in everyone's case anyway.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Is it? Because people were making the same noise before the 3rd test. I don't think that's fair. Not in everyone's case anyway.

I don't think it's entirely true. I think there's a large degree though. If BOD had played the final test and nothing else was different, I don't think there's any doubt that a lot of people would be far, far less dismissive and some would be entirely accepting of how things went.

There have been things wrong with this tour but the tactics and manner of winning the test series would be the lowest of things I'd take issue with.

I think the Barbarians game and the treatment of the Brumbies game genuinely undermined the Lions but there has been a fraction of the comment on them.

Grandpa Hassan

.ak wrote: »

Is it? Because people were making the same noise before the 3rd test. I don't think that's fair. Not in everyone's case anyway.

Not in everyone's case, for sure. But I'd wager a great deal of people are just coming out with the wide range of criticisms when they are actually only annoyed about BOD, and if he had played the context for many, particularly the casual fan, would be entirely different

I don't have an issue with the baabaas game....it was a disaster, but in theory it should have worked. You can't blame the lions for the baabaas letting themselves down.

The call ups for the brumbies damaged the credibility of the tour for me. But the injury count was scary, and Im not sure that the panickIng of the coaches is that unforgivable. And to be honest, once the tests come around, it is largely forgotten.

The concentration in one country is not a rare occurrence in lions teams, nor the lack of running rugby. The team spirit was clearly pretty bloody good....unlike a couple of precious tours.

So tbh, there are a lot of ticks there. But the BOD call is outweighing them all for a lot of people

.ak

Buer wrote: »

I don't think it's entirely true. I think there's a large degree though. If BOD had played the final test and nothing else was different, I don't think there's any doubt that a lot of people would be far, far less dismissive and some would be entirely accepting of how things went.

There have been things wrong with this tour but the tactics and manner of winning the test series would be the lowest of things I'd take issue with.

I think the Barbarians game and the treatment of the Brumbies game genuinely undermined the Lions but there has been a fraction of the comment on them.

That's fair enough, but hindsight is a great thing, and actually posting something before the event is different. Some people were making the noise that Gatland was getting things wrong before the final test, that's a fact. I'm not saying ALL of the people complaining about BOD's exclusion were doing it, but to dismiss them as only complaining because of the BOD thing is unfair.

wonderfullife

Buer wrote: »

I don't think it's entirely true. I think there's a large degree though. If BOD had played the final test and nothing else was different, I don't think there's any doubt that a lot of people would be far, far less dismissive and some would be entirely accepting of how things went.

There have been things wrong with this tour but the tactics and manner of winning the test series would be the lowest of things I'd take issue with.

I think the Barbarians game and the treatment of the Brumbies game genuinely undermined the Lions but there has been a fraction of the comment on them.

Just to clarify in response to an earlier poster (not you Buer) - i thought the Lions were absolutely superb on the weekend, it was a fantastic game of rugby and i was/am buzzing with it. The fact i still like debating issues like selection, and BOD, and other matters is just because i'm a big Lions fan (as they were my introduction to rugby in 1997 as a 15 year old).

Without that VHS (video for the younger ppl) i got that Xmas i would never have got into the game. I played at a very very limited level (i.e. bench warmed for years) but for me , weirdly, The Lions were the first rugby team i ever "supported".

That's also why i would have liked the Lions to a) win the series b) win it playing good rugby and c) win it with BOD in the Final Test. Because all that would probably get more and more involved in rugby like it did to me in 1997. The Lions takes place on a very quiet summer of sport - No World Cups, no Euros, No Olympics and usually only compete with annual events such as Wimbledon and Tour de France. It takes centre stage and it's a fantastic platform to promote rugby and get people involved.

What upset me the most about the BOD decision, other than the fact i didn't feel it was justified on form, is this:

Gatland named the team early on the Wednesday. I'm 100% convinced he knew long before then his intention to go with Roberts-JD. Yet despite that who was wheeled out to the worlds media on the Monday to represent the Lions? BOD.

Not only did that lead BOD to believe he would be Captain, it also led the world to believe it. I think it lacked class and respect for a fantastic player. If you know he is not going to be involved, then why ask him to be the face to talk so passionately about the 3rd Test a mere 24 hours before dropping him? It smacked of using him for his status in the game to promote and hype the 3rd Test via the media and was something Gatland should have ensured did not happen.


For all the faults Kidney had, i can't see him allowing POC or BOD to speak to the worlds press to promote a GS decider if he knew in his heart he was going to drop them 24 hours later. BOD sat there for 34 minutes answering questions on what the 3rd Test meant to him personally, he spoke eloquently and passionately. You had Andy Irvine describe him as a living legend in the same press conference. 24 hours later he was dropped. And Gatland let him go out and speak to the worlds media knowing he was going to be dropped.

That to me was the worst thing they did this Tour and the worst aspect of the decision to drop him.

irishbucsfan

Wouldn't it be the media manager who organises those pressers? I'd be very surprised if Gatland selects the players who speak at them.

Also, the 1997 tour was not good rugby. Hopefully the 2013 tour will bring just as many people in to the game. It's been very well followed in England anyway.

DellyBelly

When will the announcement for the next coch be made. Will it be Gatty again or could Schmitty be in line for it....

tbm

wonderfullife wrote: »

I think The Verve penned a song about the likes of him!

The Drugs don't work? They clearly do though....;)

wonderfullife wrote: »

My chief problem is this - if they are going to go with a current 6N manager then the coaching setup should reflect the whole ethos of the Lions.

It's all well and good preaching the Lions is about uniting four countries when the coaching setup is almost exclusively Welsh and English.

In the spirit of the Lions, there should be a member of each country on the coaching panel.

100% agree. It would still have been a surprise, but just to know that dropping BOD was properly considered and there was an Irish voice chiming in rather then it being a Welsh man getting it on a 50/50 call with little arguement.

wonderfullife wrote: »

What upset me the most about the BOD decision, other than the fact i didn't feel it was justified on form, is this:

Gatland named the team early on the Wednesday. I'm 100% convinced he knew long before then his intention to go with Roberts-JD. Yet despite that who was wheeled out to the worlds media on the Monday to represent the Lions? BOD.

Not only did that lead BOD to believe he would be Captain, it also led the world to believe it. I think it lacked class and respect for a fantastic player. If you know he is not going to be involved, then why ask him to be the face to talk so passionately about the 3rd Test a mere 24 hours before dropping him? It smacked of using him for his status in the game to promote and hype the 3rd Test via the media and was something Gatland should have ensured did not happen.

This sums up pefectly why I too have a slightly hollow feeling after the win.

.ak

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it was a really nice touch from Sexton to hand the trophy to BOD and POC during the celebrations as soon as Sam was finished. Showed how much it meant to him to make sure they were recognized for their work on past and present tours. Reminded me of BOD's speech after their first H-Cup win dedicating it to all the previous Leinster legends who helped get them there in the first place. Ofcourse Sexton wasn't hiding his feelings regarding BOD being dropped in the first place, so it was nice to see I guess.

Rightwing

DellyBelly wrote: »

When will the announcement for the next coch be made. Will it be Gatty again or could Schmitty be in line for it....

I'd say Gatty has it in the bag if he wants it. I was reading an article in the Ir Times, seems as if the Lions tour was a massive success on all fronts.

matthew8

There are 4 years, 3 6 nations and a world cup for a prospective Lions coach to prove himself. An absolute ton of rugby to be played. Schmidt, Cotter, Lancaster and Gatland the obvious frontrunners.

Grandpa Hassan

Rightwing wrote: »

I'd say Gatty has it in the bag if he wants it. I was reading an article in the Ir Times, seems as if the Lions tour was a massive success on all fronts.

Tbh, if Garry isnt wales coach in 2017, and he takes a nationslly diverse team of coaches (with a good attacking one) I would have no problem with it at all

Buer

4 years away and absolutely anything could happen. If they were offering the Lions job in December 2012 and not March 2012, Gatland wouldn't have even been given this tour.

bilston

DellyBelly wrote: »

When will the announcement for the next coch be made. Will it be Gatty again or could Schmitty be in line for it....

The coach won't be named for another three years. Gatland will probably get it again should he want it, he will probably be pretty successful with Wales over the next three years as well as they do look to have a pretty strong pool of players to choose from.

Swiwi.

This is an intriguing video, and seems not a bad way to finish off the series

BBDBB

Time lapse photography - the best way to see a Mike Phillips pass from the base of the ruck

irishbucsfan

BBDBB wrote: »

Time lapse photography - the best way to see a Mike Phillips pass from the base of the ruck

Buer

bilston wrote: »

The coach won't be named for another three years. Gatland will probably get it again should he want it, he will probably be pretty successful with Wales over the next three years as well as they do look to have a pretty strong pool of players to choose from.

The one thing that could be a major stumbling block is the RWC. They made a mess of their seeding. If they fail to get out of their pool (which there's a strong chance of) then I can't see Gatland getting the job. They'll need to beat England in Twickenham or Australia at home to get out of the pool.

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

The one thing that could be a major stumbling block is the RWC. They made a mess of their seeding. If they fail to get out of their pool (which there's a strong chance of) then I can't see Gatland getting the job. They'll need to beat England in Twickenham or Australia at home to get out of the pool.

At a minimum. Conceivably points difference, or for and against, or who wins the match between the 2 teams, or whatever the RWC uses to separate teams on equal points might come into the equation. From memory, there is no 4-try bonus etc in RWC pool stages.

Hanno83

Le vieux renard wrote: »

At a minimum. Conceivably points difference, or for and against, or who wins the match between the 2 teams, or whatever the RWC uses to separate teams on equal points might come into the equation. From memory, there is no 4-try bonus etc in RWC pool stages.

Yea, it's quite conceivable that the top three teams in that pool could each end the pool stage with one defeat each, which will make it difficult to separate them.

However, I'm almost sure there is a 4-try bonus system in the RWC. If I recall correctly, Ireland failed to get the try bonus against Georgia in 2007 and were then forced to chase a try bonus (as well as the win) in their final pool game against Argentina.

vienne86

Le vieux renard wrote: »

At a minimum. Conceivably points difference, or for and against, or who wins the match between the 2 teams, or whatever the RWC uses to separate teams on equal points might come into the equation. From memory, there is no 4-try bonus etc in RWC pool stages.

I'm pretty sure that try bonus points were awarded in 2011.

Rightwing

vienne86 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that try bonus points were awarded in 2011.

Indeed they were. But Gatty has been a massive success, he will be able to name his price for the next tour, and I for one wouldn't bet against him winning the series either.