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British and Irish Lions vs Melbourne Rebels, 25th June 2013, Sky Sports 10.40am

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    #422
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    We won't be seeing Zebo again, but I think he can hold his head high after a good tour. Should have been in the original party imo, and if he was I think he would have started last weekend but thems the breaks. He had nothing to lose being called out and it really showed in the way he played. Going to be an important player for Munster and Ireland next season

    Yup. I think it's disappointing he wasn't with the original party tbh. He'd have a much larger part to play in this tour if he had. We may see him again if there is an injury or two. Anyway, this experience will stick to him and I'm excited to see what Joe will do with him for Ireland.


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    #423
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Good post on PR re: Barnes today



    He really annoyed me

    Didn't know you posted on PR. :pac:

    Thought Murray's service was generally good and he had a decent game but a scrum half can't have so many sloppy errors. The botched offload, the kick ahead to nobody, the tap and go, kicking the ball dead before the end (there's a big bloody hooter that sounds!)....they all handed possession back to the opposition unnecessarily.

    His passing, in the first half particularly, was very smooth and good. But to get into the Lions 23, he needed to be error free.


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    #424
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,249 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    And I hate putting it like this, but I think there are some people who just aren't able to see what he does and get frustrated. But the last two Saturdays have been good examples.

    Its not a case of people not seeing this unglamorous work, we all see the rucks hit and the tackles made. However we also see the lack of impact when balls in hand.

    We saw today a well balanced back row, a tackling blind side, a jackling and barn storming open side, and an eight with a good mix of both and an ability to hit rucks.

    Last saturday we supposedly had our carrying flanker on blind side and our ground hog on open side, with an eight who does as the above (only better in m y opinion).
    My argument is that warbs main skill / selling point its that his support play hitting rucks its worth the loss of impact he has in open play when compared to sob for instance.

    The lions did not get enough quick ruck ball on saturday to make this argument.


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    #425
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,897 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Funnily enough I think the Lh selection may havesome bearing on who plays 6. If Gatland goes with Grant I can see him picking SOB to add an extra dinension to the pack.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #426
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Yes Barnes sounds so pompous on commentary.


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    #427
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,538 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    What did SOB say?


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    #428
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,249 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    awec wrote: »
    What did SOB say?

    Players were pissed off after last week


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    #429
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,897 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Players were pissed off after last week

    Seemed strange to have to apologies for. If it's not on the Boards swear filter it's not worth talking about ;)

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #430
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    piss

    EDIT: wasn't sure if it was on the filter or not

    haha, piss piss piss piss piss


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    #431
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,538 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    piss

    flaps?

    Anyway, Barnes' bias should be of no surprise to anyone.


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    #432
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Barnes is just clueless really, wouldn't even say it's bias, sure he loves Leinster


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    #433
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Did Tuilagi come off?


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    #434
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    .ak wrote: »
    Did Tuilagi come off?

    Nope


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    #435
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Its not a case of people not seeing this unglamorous work, we all see the rucks hit and the tackles made. However we also see the lack of impact when balls in hand.

    We saw today a well balanced back row, a tackling blind side, a jackling and barn storming open side, and an eight with a good mix of both and an ability to hit rucks.

    Last saturday we supposedly had our carrying flanker on blind side and our ground hog on open side, with an eight who does as the above (only better in m y opinion).
    My argument is that warbs main skill / selling point its that his support play hitting rucks its worth the loss of impact he has in open play when compared to sob for instance.

    The lions did not get enough quick ruck ball on saturday to make this argument.
    Well firstly the Lions got plenty of quick ball. You can't argue the selection wasnt a success, it was. You can certainly argue the selection of Croft wasn't.

    The best way to show exactly why it was a success is the attacking possession directly before Genia's try. An example of the Lions setting out and achieving some top class Gatland ball.

    Now if you have a problem with the ball carrying in the back row, then I suggest looking at the player selected to do that. Tom Croft. And I do think SOB would have done a better job than him.

    If you think the balance of the back row is wrong, then I guess you have a problem with Gatland. But this is a very successful approach to the game and it is probably the best available to the Lions against this opposition. And I think if you look at how quiet Hooper was in the first half you'll see why.


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    #436
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Well firstly the Lions got plenty of quick ball. You can't argue the selection wasnt a success, it was. You can certainly argue the selection of Croft wasn't.

    Sorry what?

    Aus missed kicks at goal. That was the reason for the result. Australia lost the game, not the Lions winning it.

    Aus finished the game with 3 front line backs in hospital. They were a makeshift team for over 25 minutes of the game and lost by 2 points.

    The result may have been a Lions win, but it sure as **** was not a success.


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    #437
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Sorry what?

    Aus missed kicks at goal. That was the reason Lions won.

    Aus finished the game with 3 front line backs in hospital. They were a makeshift team for over 25 minutes of the game and lost by 2 points.

    The result may have been a Lions win, but it sure as **** was not a success.

    The pack were excellent. The game was so close because of a couple of factors (Phillips, the ref) but the forwards were excellent almost to a man.


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    #438
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Well firstly the Lions got plenty of quick ball. You can't argue the selection wasnt a success, it was. You can certainly argue the selection of Croft wasn't.

    I can argue with that. Had Auss brought a decent pair of boots with them they'd have won the first test. The Lions didn't do anything to contribute to that. We were blown out of the water at the breakdown.

    Watching the test back the other day we were extremely sloppy at the breakdown. The two most valuable players were actually Warbs and POC. Warb is extremely clever, and not the biggest guy but uses his body in clever ways. POC just acted like a 6 and smashed the rucks. However, he isn't as mobile as we like to think, and Croft was found wanting when he had to hit rucks. He flopped on them more than anything.

    Australia shaded us in the breakdown, anytime our ball was slowed down they were very clinical at pushing us back and disrupting ball further, our clear outs were extremely ineffective.

    Now that POC is out of the picture we'll need another big unit to hit rucks. AWJ will need to step up, but I'd seriously consider SOB too. I think SOB and Warburton would actually have the best balance to be honest.

    EDIT: Incidentally I work with a SA shark's fan, and he can't fathom why Lydiate or Warburton are on the tour, and he's actually a big fan of Wales usually. He thinks the two of them are underpowered for these tests. He also thinks Croft should be dropped after saturday.

    As much as the 'depth' in the Lions backrow has been bigged up we currently have a weaker back row than Australia imo.

    Smith will only further impact that problem.


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    #439
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I got to "we were blown out of the water at the breakdown" and stopped.

    Completely untrue.

    How many times did they turn us over at the breakdown in the first half?


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    #440
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I got to "we were blown out of the water at the breakdown" and stopped.

    Completely untrue.

    How many times did they turn us over at the breakdown in the first half?

    BOD and Warburton both came out and said they stopped competing at the breakdown when the refs 'interpretation' became apparent, I would imagine the Aussies were thinking something similar


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    #441
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I got to "we were blown out of the water at the breakdown" and stopped.

    Completely untrue.

    How many times did they turn us over at the breakdown in the first half?

    What does turn overs have to do with anything? We consistently struggled to get clean ball and got sucked into dog fights which clearly was not part of the plan and was clearly due to a lack of power at the breakdown.


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    #442
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,249 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Well firstly the Lions got plenty of quick ball. You can't argue the selection wasnt a success, it was.

    well secondly, they didn't... And it wasnt.

    Mowen showed how to cut down the attacking options around the breakdown where as the lions definitely came out second best in that regard when compared.

    The truth is the lions, while playing better and having better players, almost lost the game because of what they couldn't do.... Not because of what they could. The lions should have had that game sown up after ,60 when hooper moved to centre, but they were unable to pull away because of slow ground ball and a scrum half that was shorn of ideas. Even when youngs came on the ball wasn't as clean as it should have been to allow him to dictate the play.

    We won't agree on this.


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    #443
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    BOD and Warburton both came out and said they stopped competing at the breakdown when the refs 'interpretation' became apparent, I would imagine the Aussies were thinking something similar

    You're talking about defensively.

    I don't think the Aussies stopped. Hooper couldn't get a sniff


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    #444
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    You're talking about defensively.

    I don't think the Aussies stopped. Hooper couldn't get a sniff

    Aussies are probably saying the same about Warburton, but I think the ref played a huge part in it


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    #445
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,249 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Aussies are probably saying the same about Warburton, but I think the ref played a huge part in it

    But sure our open side flanker wasnt there for turn overs...don't cha know ;)


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    #446
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Melbourne Rebels
    Lydiate underpowered? Can't see that.


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    #447
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Lydiate underpowered? Can't see that.

    In fairness Lydiate hasn't shown anything to say otherwise, he's played feck all and has made a lot of defensive tackles, but that's it. He's a shadow of his 2012 6N player of the season self.


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    #448
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Aussies are probably saying the same about Warburton, but I think the ref played a huge part in it

    Well I doubt the Aussies are aaying that about the breakdown. If they are they're wrong.

    Theres a reason the Lions achieved a phase count of 23 when the Aussies only managed 7 at the most.


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    #449
    For Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭For Paws


    Melbourne Rebels
    In any case the game plan for the 2nd Test (providing the Lions won the 1st) will be to keep it tight, which in turn makes Croft's selection more difficult.

    With POC out, we're left with only 3 line out jumpers (AWJ, Parling & Heaslip) so Croft may owe his place in the starting side to his line out capabilities.

    But since Tom Youngs can't throw accurately to the tail, it's debatable whether Croft's catching is enough to see him named.

    Reckon JH will start, with SW at 7 & Lydiate at 6. SOB to bench.

    Roberts will come in at 12 & Ben Youngs will bench.

    Tommy Bowe to start at 14.

    So much, again, will revolve around Phillips' ability to compete with Genia's speed, and to keep control at ruck time.


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    #450
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Well I doubt the Aussies are aaying that about the breakdown. If they are they're wrong.

    Theres a reason the Lions achieved a phase count of 23 when the Aussies only managed 7 at the most.

    Go on?


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    #451
    wonderfullife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    Tom Croft is a superb athlete and is always shown to best effect when the backline is functioning. Back in 2009 in the 1st Test he had a shocker in the 1st Half, but when Stephen Jones started to unleash Doc-Bod, Croft was great. Excellent support lines, decent carries and good finishes.

    But he IS a flanker and frankly he's often admitted half jokingly he ends up on the wing more than the wingers do. We need either SOB, or hell, i'd even be ok with Lydiate in there this weekend. If we can't at least get parity at the breakdown it doesnt matter how much talent we have out wide.

    Bottom line is this - and it has to keep coming back to this - the selection of Warburton as captain has really served to mess up a quite stunning set of forwards.

    SOB
    Heaslip
    Faletau
    Tipuric
    Lydiate
    Warburton
    Croft

    ANY touring side ever put together would dream of talent like that to choose from. Yet because Warburton is captain, and hence un-dropable despite Gatlands baloni pre-tour, it's becoming ever more difficult to get the best out of that group.

    There are so many combinations of that seven that could be unbelievably good this weekend.

    Lydiate - SOB -Heaslip
    Tipuric - SOB - Heaslip
    SOB - Warburton - Heaslip
    Croft - SOB - Heaslip
    Croft - Tipuric - Heaslip

    And of course i have Heaslip in all but Faletau for Heaslip changes little, both superb.

    The problem isnt just Warburton hasnt justified his selection and is not in peak form. The problem is his guaranteed selection means Gatland has to base the entire "balance" of the backrow around him.


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