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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #1112
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    You could use 2+2 minimum and with full motorway width overbridges and GSJs . Anyway I would start by trying to reactivate Cork - Buttevant as designed and with some extra movements near Buttevant at a partial junction. When the PPP logjam clears it may clear with a vengeance and we may suddenly run out of 'product' for the market.

    I'd consider the 'lighter' road solution for the northern section ( Buttevant - Patrickswell and Adare ) even if only to show that I considered it and discarded it for good reason. The southern section should proceed as Motorway and with the CORK NRR tacked on. :)


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    #1113
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    the sections of 2+1 between Mallow and Cork could easily have been 2+2 with a small extra expenditure but it was an experiment to see if 2+1 might work...it's regarded as a failure and there wont be any more. Climbing lanes is a different matter of course.


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    #1114
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Anyway I don't/didn't recommend 2+1 be built at all. I said Type 1 S2 ( the one with the hard shoulders as one hard shoulder could become a median in time.


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    #1115
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Really, you could fool me looking at a map, but then the M50 isn't a full ring road
    either.

    It's a bit like saying the "circular road" in Galway is a bypass when it's only a neighbourhood road through Rahoon & Newcastle.

    You could stretch a point and say the Cork "ring Road" goes from the end of the Carrigrohane straight to Silversprings (or maybe Blackpool) via the N40 but in reality it's only a half ring.

    I'm not actually sure that the road needs to be a complete ring...Build from the Tunnel/M8 to the (one day) M20 near Blackpool and that might suffice.


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    #1116
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    corktina wrote: »
    the sections of 2+1 between Mallow and Cork could easily have been 2+2 with a small extra expenditure but it was an experiment to see if 2+1 might work...it's regarded as a failure and there wont be any more. Climbing lanes is a different matter of course.
    the new build sections of 2+1 on the N2 on the Castleblaney by pass though I'd argue are spot on as the overtaking sections aren't fantastically long but are long enough to get your overtaking done.


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    #1117
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    the new build sections of 2+1 on the N2 on the Castleblaney by pass though I'd argue are spot on as the overtaking sections aren't fantastically long but are long enough to get your overtaking done.

    ah but if they had been 2+2 in the first place....

    On the Mallow section, they severely hinder traffic flow and at 1 km are too short to make much difference to overtaking as you just get stuck behind the next slowcoach (some of which are tractors doing 20km/h.. The one thing they do do well is to stop rear-end accidents at the junctions and the fatalities previously seen.


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    #1118
    Cash is king
    Site Banned Posts: 166 ✭✭Cash is king


    corktina wrote: »
    ah but if they had been 2+2 in the first place....

    On the Mallow section, they severely hinder traffic flow and at 1 km are too short to make much difference to overtaking as you just get stuck behind the next slowcoach (some of which are tractors doing 20km/h.. The one thing they do do well is to stop rear-end accidents at the junctions and the fatalities previously seen.


    The last time I used that road I used the overtaking lane to pass a truck that was going slow. He had being held up too by the car in front but the car put down the shoe and matched his speed.

    Long story short at the end your man stayed out and pinned the car into the ditch!!!


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    #1119
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The 2+1 section is a 1990s upgrade to a road that was only built in the 1980s in the first place. That itself was a major upgrade to what was the most diabolic main road in Ireland ...namely Cork - Mallow c.1980. Not a single straight longer than 100m for about 25 miles.

    Christ that road was friggin awful. :(

    Yet here we go with the third major upgrade in only 30 years because we got it wrong...twice...during that time.


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    #1120
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    When first I encountered Cork to Mallow, I couldn't believe it (about 1979). Bends galore, many Railway Bridges too .Even had to negotiate Mallow Town then. I thought we'd never get where we were going (and was amazed at how big Co Cork is...and had only really scratched the surface of it at that stage!)

    We forget quickly what the roads used to be like!


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    #1121
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    http://goo.gl/maps/mF4oJ

    http://goo.gl/maps/1m32A

    http://goo.gl/maps/wCRea

    http://goo.gl/maps/pe7Pg

    http://goo.gl/maps/A4706

    http://goo.gl/maps/WFeBq

    Couple of google SV pics of the Old Mallow Road. This bit was replaced by the DC that now goes from Cork to Blarney, sometime in the 80s. It was an AWFUL road, with absolutely hilarious bends and junctions. They quite rightly replaced it.

    Its not even an R road now.


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    #1122
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Yet here we go with the third major upgrade in only 30 years because we got it wrong...twice...during that time.

    Out of interest, do you know why Buttevant still uses the same alignment as it did in the late 1800s? Why did that never get straightened?

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,553987,607028,6,9

    The quarry is in the way, but a road around it would be very short.

    And on that note, does anyone know why this suspiciously wide bit of fencing

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,554627,611308,6,0

    was never made into a road?


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    #1123
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Yes, the old Cork to Mallow road was a diabolical, hideous goat track that was totally unfit for purpose.

    I think that even if the M20 was to get the go ahead soon it would still be wise and prudent to improve the Mallow-Buttevant section including a bypass of Buttevant.


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    #1124
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    corktina wrote: »
    We forget quickly what the roads used to be like!

    I don't. The country would be totally banjaxed if we had the road network we had in 1980 ....ie no motorways at all. :D


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    #1125
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    http://goo.gl/maps/pe7Pg

    Of course this bend was already mitigated. No doubt you'd have been even less impressed before!
    But many roads weren't much better in the early 80s.


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    #1126
    RikkFlair
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭RikkFlair


    Something I've often wondered about this section of the N20, the stone walls that are set in from the road north of Buttevant, always glanced at them driving down to Cork but didn't really take any notice what they actually were....til I read this thread!

    http://goo.gl/maps/a6fhJ

    Someone told me recently that they were built for road widening that never happened, that true? Would love to know what year they were built as they seem to have been there for ages.


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    #1127
    Cash is king
    Site Banned Posts: 166 ✭✭Cash is king


    RikkFlair wrote: »
    Something I've often wondered about this section of the N20, the stone walls that are set in from the road north of Buttevant, always glanced at them driving down to Cork but didn't really take any notice what they actually were....til I read this thread!

    http://goo.gl/maps/a6fhJ

    Someone told me recently that they were built for road widening that never happened, that true? Would love to know what year they were built as they seem to have been there for ages.

    That is true allthough I cannot tell you when they were built but guessing by the discolouration of the stone I would say a long time. It's madness really considering the cost involved in land acquisition and building the wall.


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    #1128
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Two posts back I was asking about that :D

    Here is is from the air, clear indication that land was purchased for widening. Ironically wouldn't have sorted the bends south of Buttevant, but anyway.

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,554627,611308,6,0


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    #1129
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »

    Here is is from the air, clear indication that land was purchased for widening. Ironically wouldn't have sorted the bends south of Buttevant, but anyway.

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,554627,611308,6,0

    Same place in 1995.

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,554627,611308,6,5


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    #1130
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I can't find the maps now but I **think** the M20 will use that bit of purchased land, so is the likely point for the tie-in of the southern scheme (Blarney - Buttevant) to the northern scheme (Buttevant - Patrickswell). Uneducated guesswork though.


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    #1131
    RikkFlair
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭RikkFlair


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Two posts back I was asking about that :D

    Here is is from the air, clear indication that land was purchased for widening. Ironically wouldn't have sorted the bends south of Buttevant, but anyway.

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,554627,611308,6,0

    Ah, those links wont load for me in Google Chrome so I thought you were talking about somewhere else! But I can see the aerial view fine now, in Firefox. Much better view than Google Maps actually. The wall seems to go on for much farther than I had thought.

    Probably built sometime in the late 90s so.


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    #1132
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Quick N20 related question guys.

    I see on google maps that there's the New Mallow Road and the Old Mallow Road.

    Is the present section between the Commons Road and Blarney a completely new build and if so, when was it first built.

    Is it the case that the road to Mallow used to be the one indicated in yellow here on the map:

    https://maps.google.ie/?ll=51.931883,-8.487668&spn=0.018258,0.045404&t=m&z=15

    If this is also the case, how did people get to Blarney back then ?


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    #1133
    KCAccidental
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭KCAccidental


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Quick N20 related question guys.

    I see on google maps that there's the New Mallow Road and the Old Mallow Road.

    Is the present section between the Commons Road and Blarney a completely new build and if so, when was it first built.

    Is it the case that the road to Mallow used to be the one indicated in yellow here on the map:

    https://maps.google.ie/?ll=51.931883,-8.487668&spn=0.018258,0.045404&t=m&z=15

    If this is also the case, how did people get to Blarney back then ?

    indeed, it was built in the early 90's if I remember correctly

    there was a turn off for Blarney from that road

    also Blarney St and in turn Blarney Rd, which is now the back road to Blarney.


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    #1134
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Nice to know that there is still an alternative route if they want to reclassify the Blarney to Commons Road section a motorway. IMO, that section is also fully capable of a 120kph limit.

    Just on that map I posted, there is also a road called the "Kiln Road". I'm guessing this also went into Blarney ? Looks like they blocked the road either side of the new road and never built a bridge to continue it on.


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    #1135
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    That was indeed the old road to Mallow. It was godawful. So bendy and twisty you could hardly make progress on it at all. Get stuck behind a lorry and you were indeed stuck.


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    #1136
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Any idea why the road to Whitechurch is called the "Old Mallow Road" while the one that goes to Monard is known as the Mallow Road ?


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    #1137
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    The Whitechurch road may have been superceded by the other road due to a minor change in the junctions in town in the 1980s (vague memory). You have to consider that from late Sept to end December every year that road was very heavily trafficked with trucks bringing beet to the sugar factory in Mallow (the plant was open from 07:00 to 21:00 - or there abouts, when things were busy. In the 1980s, hauliers used to figure on 4 loads a day from East Cork, the first leaving at 05:30. Good times).

    The old road was awful and very dangerous (particularly the run down into Blackpool when laden) - that new road was an absolute life saver. At a guess, I'd say it opened around 1991-92?


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    #1138
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The N20 was upgraded between Mallow and Cork city in stages between the mid 1980s and 1994. The first section to be improved was just south of Mallow around 1983/4, then the Mallow bypass opened with a new bridge over the River Blackwater in 1986 and finally a completely offline section from Kilmona to Blackpool including the Blackpool to Blarney DC in 1993/94.

    The original N20 between Mallow and Cork was one of the worst sections of National Primary in Ireland and that, given the general state of the country's roads back then, was saying something.


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    #1139
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    The N20 was upgraded between Mallow and Cork city in stages between the mid 1980s and 1994. The first section to be improved was just south of Mallow around 1983/4, then the Mallow bypass opened with a new bridge over the River Blackwater in 1986 and finally a completely offline section from Kilmona to Blackpool including the Blackpool to Blarney DC in 1993/94.

    The original N20 between Mallow and Cork was one of the worst sections of National Primary in Ireland and that, given the general state of the country's roads back then, was saying something.

    Any idea whether the Whitechurch road would have been the main road to Mallow previous to the road through Monard as Aidan thinks it might have been ?


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    #1140
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I was looking through Limerick 2030 An Economic and Spatial Plan for Limerick which was released yesterday and noticed this map;

    258374.jpg

    I notice it has M20 to Newcastle West, Adare & Tralee but M21 to Cork. Does this suggest the plan is that once the motorway between Limerick and Cork is built (whenever that will be!) it will become the M21 and the existing N21 will be reclassified as N20? Or will the N21 become something else (N24?) with the sections of M7 and M18 around Limerick becoming the M20 and N21 remaining as is? The latter would keep the theme of having multiples of 10 for ring roads of cities (M50 for Dublin, M40 for Cork), in this case I presume the Galway Outer Bypass would become the M30?

    Too soon to change the thread title?


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    #1141
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    By the looks of it the Limerick bypass will be half M7 and half M18. I dont think it'll have its own number a la the M50 or N40. As for the Galway bypass, it's likely to be a continuation of the M6 right?


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