M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

antoobrien

TINA1984 wrote: »

Yet the N18 Gort - Crusheen was identified as a backlog project in that very same report, yet somehow it sneaked its way to the front of the line for a Motorway. In fact the entirety of the current M18 north of Shannon was identified as a backlog project in the 1998 report, The plot thickens...

Oh several things changed, for example Galway - Ballinasloe (under several different projects) were phase one but were the last parts of the M6 built. It seems that there was a decision that it made more sense to have the road snake from Dublin to Galway rather than take a beet in the middle approach.

For the N18, they seem to have taken the decision that giving Galway access to Shannon & Foynes is more strategically important than Cork (seeing that cork already has such facilities).

TINA1984

antoobrien wrote: »

For the N18, they seem to have taken the decision that giving Galway access to Shannon & Foynes is more strategically important than Cork (seeing that cork already has such facilities).

Oh I'm sure that was the reason alright

antoobrien

TINA1984 wrote: »

Oh I'm sure that was the reason alright

Nah, it's known that the bridge in Crusheen was one of the biggest death traps in the country and had to go. After that it's a bit of what makes sense, keep going north where the prerequisites are lower or go south.

Also neither Limerick nor Cork had the necessary infrastructure to push the dc/mway traffic without doing the ring roads first (which happened to be the plan in Galway as well until a certain dub heard of bog cotton:rolleyes:). The big difference between the N20 and N17/18 route was never supposed to actually enter the city of Galway, just close to it, where the N20 is a specific link between Cork & Limerick. Without the bypasses (ready in limerick and being upgrade in cork) there is as little point building the M20 as dropping the M6 into east Galway.

I've no doubt that if Cork & Limerick had the ring roads up to the required level that the M20 would have been done first. But without them it makes no sense.

corktina

mydiscworld wrote: »

Fred Barry, CEO of National Roads Authority, is in front of Oireachtas Committee this morning.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/live-mediaplayer/

Committee Room 1

He has just spoken on many routes, inc. Cork to Limerick. Said it was a Gov policy decision to cease progression on this route so cannot comment further.

ah yes the Sir Humphrey Appleton response.

corktina

antoobrien wrote: »

Nah, it's known that the bridge in Crusheen was one of the biggest death traps in the country and had to go. After that it's a bit of what makes sense, keep going north where the prerequisites are lower or go south.

Also neither Limerick nor Cork had the necessary infrastructure to push the dc/mway traffic without doing the ring roads first (which happened to be the plan in Galway as well until a certain dub heard of bog cotton:rolleyes:). The big difference between the N20 and N17/18 route was never supposed to actually enter the city of Galway, just close to it, where the N20 is a specific link between Cork & Limerick. Without the bypasses (ready in limerick and being upgrade in cork) there is as little point building the M20 as dropping the M6 into east Galway.

I've no doubt that if Cork & Limerick had the ring roads up to the required level that the M20 would have been done first. But without them it makes no sense.

( Limerick has it's ring road and) Cork has dual carriageway all the way to the quays plus the North Ring to Silversprings and dual thereafter to the tunnel and South Ring.

Given the same level of traffic on the M20 as there is now on the N20 I don't see why the lack of a Ring Road is particulalrly a problem

antoobrien

corktina wrote: »

( Limerick has it's ring road and)

Limerick didn't have a ring road, N18 traffic had to go through the city center to get to the N20.

corktina wrote: »

Cork has dual carriageway all the way to the quays plus the North Ring to Silversprings and dual thereafter to the tunnel and South Ring.

Given the same level of traffic on the M20 as there is now on the N20 I don't see why the lack of a Ring Road is particulalrly a problem

Because the Cork ring road as it stood wasn't up to the extra demands, same as the N6 in Galway City isn't up to handling the extra demands of being at the end of a motorway.

corktina

what extra demands?

antoobrien

corktina wrote: »

what extra demands?

and at that I'm going to stop because I'm wasting my time.

AugustusMinimus

I'd argue that the present situation of the M8 ending at the Dunkettle Roundabout is a much worse situation than a potential M20 ending in Blackpool.

At least with the potential M20, there are a lot more ways for traffic to disperse at the end than at the end of the M8 which is a bit of a distaster without the future Dunkettle upgrade.

In the end, building the east part of the Cork North Ring Road will only allow M20 traffic to access the M8. Maybe 20% of total traffic ?

TINA1984

Ok Anto, we believe you, its because the M20 project didn't exist in 2000/Cork doesn't have the infrastructure/Limerick doesn't have the infrastructure/Galway needs to be linked to Shannon & Foynes that the N20 has been ignored since the early naughties. :pac:

There's no politics in play here, definitely not!

For me, I'd be more then happy for just the original proposal in the 15 year old NRA report to be fulfilled, namely a bypass for the Charleville/Buttevant section which was considered an absolute priority then. nevermind now. Let's recall that the ridiculously twisty alignment has, as Chris has pointed out, not been touched since the 19th century :eek:.

corktina

I'd go further and argue that many of the motorways completed could have been much simpler dual carriageways or not built at all.

Oh and Anto, there would surely be no extra demands if you built a motorway from (say) the Commons Inn outward. The same traffic would access the Commons Road as does now.The Blarney bypass is already quite close to motorway standard and I can't understand where the extra demands are coming in. The purpose of building the M20 is to relieve those sections further North that are the problem, you could in fact start the Motorway at Blarney and head north, the section into the city doesn't really need improving except when and if a new North Ring gets built.

antoobrien

TINA1984 wrote: »

There's no politics in play here, definitely not!

If you think politics is responsible for the N18 being ahead of the N20, then you seriously overestimate the abilities of Galway goivernment TDs over the past 15 years, they are the most useless bunch of lame ducks that has been around for a long time.

corktina wrote: »

Oh and Anto, there would surely be no extra demands if you built a motorway from (say) the Commons Inn outward. The same traffic would access the Commons Road as does now.

Motorways bring extra traffic because the concentrate traffic on fewer roads in the corridor, meaning a changed distribution of how traffic interacts. The same claim could have been made of the M6 into Galway but it's bogus as the traffic was dumped onto a single junction instead of being distributed over 2/3 roads.

corktina

there is only one road in the N20 corridor...the N20. That's why it needs replacing..it's already carrying all the traffic on it's axis.

antoobrien

corktina wrote: »

there is only one road in the N20 corridor...the N20. That's why it needs replacing..it's already carrying all the traffic on it's axis.

Yeah, they said that about the N6 as well.

TINA1984

Just as well the NRA lumped the Cork Northern Ring Road in with the southern section of the M20 scheme to avoid this predicted mess!

Also interesting that even with the increased traffic motorways bring, the N20 has higher AADTs then the M6 as things stand

dee2dee

From Today's Limerick Leader

Limerick-Cork motorway costs ‘prohibitive’: Varadkar
by Mike Dwane
Published on the 10 October 2013



A MOTORWAY between Limerick and Cork is “not feasible” in the current climate, Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has told Deputy Patrick O’Donovan.

Landowners from Patrickswell to Charleville had been preparing to engage with the National Roads Authority on compulsory purchase orders until the €1 billion road scheme was shelved by the government in 2011.

The Fine Gael TD for Limerick had tabled a parliamentary question on whether the project could be resurrected as part of the capital expenditure budget but Minister Varadkar replied last week that the government had no plans to advance the motorway at present.


While it is proposed that the motorway would be built as a public-private partnership with significant investment from the private sector, the cost to the state of planning and other preparatory works were too high at present, Minister Varadkar said.


“In relation to projects of the scale of the M20, it is not feasible given current and future projections that the State would be in a position to build this from its own resources. Rather, it would be constructed through the PPP model. While this model involves the private sector carrying the construction risk, it does require the State to meet the initial design, planning and land purchase costs. In the case of the M20, to a significant degree more than any other roads project, these costs are prohibitive at present,” said the minister.


“In 2011 I indicated to the NRA that they should withdraw their application to An Bord Pleanála for the M20 Cork to Limerick route. I was concerned that to proceed any further with the scheme to build the M20 would have exposed the NRA to significant costs arising from a consequent requirement to purchase the CPO’d land within a limited timeframe.



“This would have had to be done without the reasonable prospect of proceeding to construction stage quickly. I do not believe the basis exists at present that would give confidence that a PPP of the scale of the M20 would be affordable or achievable and thereby justify commencing the project through planning again. However, this position is constantly under review,” Minister Varadkar told Deputy O’Donovan.



http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/business-news/limerick-cork-motorway-costs-prohibitive-varadkar-1-5566568

littlemac1980

Well I work in Mallow and having spent years traveling that lethal road from Limerick, I'm glad to say I have moved to Cork and no longer have to put my life at risk on a daily basis to make the trip to work.

wingfo

And that it seems is that.

kub

I wonder is Minister Varadker a big Leinster Rugby supporter and hates the thought of bridging the 2 cities which primarily make up his favourite teams biggest foes.

sonnyblack

wingfo wrote: »

And that it seems is that.

If they don't want to build a motorway why in heavens name can't they at least start a series of bypasses of Buttevant and Charleville. Even that much would save lives

littlemac1980

sonnyblack wrote: »

If they don't want to build a motorway why in heavens name can't they at least start a series of bypasses of Buttevant and Charleville. Even that much would save lives

And a couple of hard shoulders on the road from Croom to Charleville wouldn't go astray - would at least bring that road up to about 1980's standards.

Rightwing

Costs are prohibitive.....until the decision concerns Dublin, then let's throw billions at it, and we'll do our costing later. :mad:

cocobear

It's like the land that time forgot travelling between Limerick and Cork!
The politicians, both TDs and local for the areas along the route are responsible for sitting on their hands , daydreaming about how much their pensions will be, and doing nothing to ensure the motorway was pushed through and built while the money was there to do it.
They make me sick and by the way budget looms and we all know what that means for road tax

Rightwing

And all these signs for the M20, will it cost another few million to take them down now?

Cookiemunster

Rightwing wrote: »

And all these signs for the M20, will it cost another few million to take them down now?

What signs? There is actually an M20 between Limerick and Patrickswell which is correctly signed as M20. The rest of the route to cork is N20 and is signed as such.

source

Rightwing wrote: »

And all these signs for the M20, will it cost another few million to take them down now?

No need, M20 already exists from Limerick city to Patrickswell.

Rightwing

That road is as much the M21 as the M20, if not more so.

source

Rightwing wrote: »

That road is as much the M21 as the M20, if not more so.

No it's the M20, it replaced the N20,

Going by your thinking the M18 would be the M7 or indeed the M20 or even M21 as they're all linked by the one junction.

Cookiemunster

Rightwing wrote: »

That road is as much the M21 as the M20, if not more so.

That's not the way road designations work. The N21 branches off the M20 after Patrickswell. Just Like the way the M7 runs from Dublin to Limerick and the M8 to Cork branches off after Portlaoise.

Rightwing

source wrote: »

No it's the M20, it replaced the N20,

Going by your thinking the M18 would be the M7 or indeed the M20 or even M21 as they're all linked by the one junction.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's not the way road designations work. The N21 branches off the M20 after Patrickswell. Just Like the way the M7 runs from Dublin to Limerick and the M8 to Cork branches off after Portlaoise.

I know, but I've seen cars turn around on that motorway, they think they are on the motorway to Cork and they've missed the exit.

Another hairbrained decision by the NRA.

Must be the shortest motorway in the world.

Chuckle chuckle.