M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

veryangryman

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Because the Cork to Limerick motorway isn't there just to serve those travelling from Cork to Limerick and vica versa.

I feel sorry for truckers. Time was that Motorways were built with Inter city trucking in mind.

We still have people thinking that Motorways are there for small-town folk where a simple S4 bypass would suit their small town.

AugustusMinimus

veryangryman wrote: »

I feel sorry for truckers. Time was that Motorways were built with Inter city trucking in mind.

We still have people thinking that Motorways are there for small-town folk where a simple S4 bypass would suit their small town.

Did you intend for your post to be as patronising as it came across ?


By your logic, all motorways should link various cities without any intermediary junctions ? Would help the truckers avoid those pesky drivers who might not want to use the entire length of the motorway.

veryangryman

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Did you intend for your post to be as patronising as it came across ?

As a resident of a small town, not at all.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

By your logic, all motorways should link various cities without any intermediary junctions ? Would help the truckers avoid those pesky drivers who might not want to use the entire length of the motorway.

You added 1 and 1 there and made 3, my friend.

My logic is that money for roads ain't what it used to be. By linking N24 to M8 in the previous posters example, we help out 2 routes (Galway/Limerick to Cork and 1/3 of Limerick to Waterford/Rosslare). This has more cost-benefit advantages than linking the towns of the current N20 on its own. The towns that happen to be on the way of this M24 can of course get their own junctions if needs be.

TINA1984

veryangryman wrote: »

As a resident of a small town, not at all.



You added 1 and 1 there and made 3, my friend.

My logic is that money for roads ain't what it used to be. By linking N24 to M8 in the previous posters example, we help out 2 routes (Galway/Limerick to Cork and 1/3 of Limerick to Waterford/Rosslare). This has more cost-benefit advantages than linking the towns of the current N20 on its own. The towns that happen to be on the way of this M24 can of course get their own junctions if needs be.

Your points have been refuted time and time again in this thread if you care to read through it, If we do as you suggest the following will still need to happen:

# Dunkettle is already creaking and will need to be rebuilt before any additional traffic is foisted upon it

# The N20 Mallow-Blarney section will still need to be rebuilt, it being a key artery in the Cork Metro Area (a metropolitan area of 300k roughly equivalent in population to Galway, Limerick & Waterford)

# Cork->Limerick->Galway traffic will still be as likely to take the old N20 as time savings will be marginal with a new M8/M24 combo which will include a toll, result meaning the North Cork towns will still all likely need some form of bypass

# Let's not forget that the CNRR & Adare Bypass will still need to be constructed somewhere along the line if the M20 is shelved permanently

So, whilst on paper your proposal sounds logical, you'll still be requiring substantial upgrades elsewhere if the NRA do as you suggest and cancel outright the M20 projects.

Bad as the N24 is, it ain't a priority in the same way the N20 is. And which to be fair, we could make the exact same arguments you've used to dismiss the M20's case - smaller towns and villages then on the N20 with delusions of grandeur in the form of wanting a motorway bypass - and apply that to the case for an N24

corktina

it is slightly annoying to yet again have someone not directly affected advocate linking Limerick by Motorway to Mitchelstown or (worse) Cahir and thus to Cork. Most motorway use in ireland is to a City from a small rural town NOT inter-city. We (in North Cork) are 45 minutes to an hour from the nearest motorway as it is, Lord alone knows how long it takes people from Killarney or West Cork (for example) to access the Motorway network.

The N20 is a dire road in places and the delays in replacing it will result in people dying, it's inevitable. To suggest NOT replacing it is astounding. At the very least, a modern road is needed from Netwopothouse to North of Buttevant and the whole section from Blarney to Croom is one of the worst trunk roads in the Country

veryangryman

corktina wrote: »

it is slightly annoying to yet again have someone not directly affected advocate linking Limerick by Motorway to Mitchelstown or (worse) Cahir and thus to Cork. Most motorway use in ireland is to a City from a small rural town NOT inter-city. We (in North Cork) are 45 minutes to an hour from the nearest motorway as it is, Lord alone knows how long it takes people from Killarney or West Cork (for example) to access the Motorway network.

The N20 is a dire road in places and the delays in replacing it will result in people dying, it's inevitable. To suggest NOT replacing it is astounding. At the very least, a modern road is needed from Netwopothouse to North of Buttevant and the whole section from Blarney to Croom is one of the worst trunk roads in the Country

Im fairly sure that truck access from London (and beyond) to Rosslare, Waterford, Limerick and Galway is of better benefit to the country. Allowing for easier/more efficient trade is one of the main stimulants to the economy.

West Cork/Kerry is unfortunate to not be on an intercity route and i appreciate that the counties are massive. That being said, its no reason to build motorways to or near them. Population of 300K+ you may say but that covers ALOT of space which cant be justified.

The motorways have in some cases been heavily used by commuters from the towns along the way, but that doesn't mean that it was their primary purpose when the build was done.

Just my own opinion, everyone has one.

corktina

truck traffic such as you state can take already-good roads to Waterford, then the M9/N9 up to the M7 and M50 etc.(not to mention the M/N11) They don't need a hugely expensive M24 through difficult country to Limerick .

Cork and Limerick are city #2 and #3 and need to be linked and more importantly need links into them from their hinterlands.

veryangryman

Edinburgh does not its own direct link to London via Motorway. You have to head towards Glasgow and turn (a much longer journey than proposed M24 to Mich/Cahir).

Im sure plenty of commuters 20 miles south of Edinburgh cried into their Cornflakes when this was planned, but they got over it im sure.

corktina

and your point is?
Almost no traffic flows from Edinburgh to London....it's the intermediate points that need facilities. I'd wager that ten times as much traffic flows between the two Scottish Cities as flows southwards
There is no case for a motorway based on the N24...the country is difficult...the flow is not there...other facilities are available.......meanwhile people die on the N20 for want of a proper road. The M20 serves a large swath of the Hinterland of both Cities, it is essential Infrastructure of a much higher order than the M24 would be.

By all means a M24 as well when we can afford it it, but NOT instead of an M20!

TINA1984

veryangryman wrote: »

Im fairly sure that truck access from London (and beyond) to Rosslare, Waterford, Limerick and Galway is of better benefit to the country. Allowing for easier/more efficient trade is one of the main stimulants to the economy.

So we're back to the "build it and they will come" line. All well and good but it doesn't justify ignoring the M20 and its offshoots which need to be built/rebuilt in favour of achieving a goal to link the most sparsely populated part of the island with London & the continent.

If that is the goal and the need is pressing, then to humour your previous suggestion, surely a couple of strategically placed S4 bypasses will do the job just as well along the current N24? If its good enough for Buttevant & Charleville, then surely its good enough for Oola & Tipp Town?

veryangryman wrote: »

Population of 300K+ you may say but that covers ALOT of space which cant be justified.

300k is just the population of Cork city and its immediate hinterland of suburbs & satellite towns, which isn't that big an area. It doesn't include the population of the North Co. Cork Towns being bypassed or south Co. Limerick where the M20 will be built.

veryangryman wrote: »

The motorways have in some cases been heavily used by commuters from the towns along the way, but that doesn't mean that it was their primary purpose when the build was done.

The M20 won't be creating commuter traffic, it will be facilitating existing traffic in the southern section of the scheme. The story of the current N20 Between Mallow & Blarney is one of high AADT's, low political priorities & terrible attempts at low cost fixes. That's the commuter section of the N20 (Not forgetting the badly needed Northern section of the Cork Ring Road)

Its the northern section of the Scheme, encompassing bypasses of the North Cork Towns & Adare which is the Intercity component of the scheme.

cjpm

Yet another fatality on one of the worst roads in Ireland. :mad::mad:


RIP the little girl :-(

Hope the others pull through

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fouryearold-dies-and-fiveyearold-injured-in-car-crash-29418085.html

corktina

In fairness the N20 at Grenagh is not the worst road in Ireland by a long chalk.I would imagine the road had no bearing on this accident.

mydiscworld

Another killed by Charleville. Not sure if it was on main road though

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0716/462710-rta-charleville/

corktina

mydiscworld wrote: »

Another killed by Charleville. Not sure if it was on main road though

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0716/462710-rta-charleville/

Boolard is on the R578 which is the Charleville to Newtowshandrum road, just beyond Charleville Golf Club. There are a couple of nasty bends in this area which may be relevant.

My sympathies to those involved.

JupiterKid

It actually beggars belief that the atrocious section of the N20 around Buttevant wasn't widened and realigned 20, 30 or even 40 years ago as it is such a substandard section of National Primary.

Even if the M20 had never been planned it should have been upgraded as a matter of urgency decades ago. Why was it overlooked for so long?:(:mad:

corktina

It's my memory (although it's been hotly denied on here before) that the people of Buttevant campaigned against a bypass, probably around 1990

It certainly should be done now, in lieu of the delay to the M20, although I doubt it will, (it is actually being resurfaced at present in part

Chris_5339762

If you look at the old OS maps, you'll see the alignment south of Buttevant is the same as it was in the late 1800s. Have a look at the Historical maps of the area. Its EXACTLY the same. Not one bend has been smoothed out in over 100 years. That has to be a record.

TINA1984

Drove up and down the entirety of the M/N20 over the weekend, its such a disaster of a road. Got stuck behind a tractor north of Mallow who wouldn't pull in for ages and there was a massive queue of traffic stuck behind him winding its way to Buttevant. Saw plenty of crazy overtaking as a result.

Is there a national primary route left which has the profile which this route has? In under 100km you have Motorway, Dual Carriageway, wide S2, narrow S2 & 2+1. Throw in the terrible bends at Bellybeg & the various traffic calming measures and you must have a candidate for the most varied route amongst the major roads on the island.

It boggles the mind that once you hit Patrickswell, once Gort - Tuam is built, then its Motorway all the way into the bowels of Connacht. South of Patrickswell you're into some kind of bizarre alternate universe where the splurge on roads by the Irish state during the Celtic Bubble era never happened!

veryangryman

TINA1984 wrote: »

Is there a national primary route left which has the profile which this route has? In under 100km you have Motorway, Dual Carriageway, wide S2, narrow S2 & 2+1. Throw in the terrible bends at Bellybeg & the various traffic calming measures and you must have a candidate for the most varied route amongst the major roads on the island.

N4 anyone? Low standard DC, HQDC, Motorway, Low standard DC, HQDC, wide S2, S2, 2+2, wide S2, Narrow S2, HQDC

larchill

Its all down to toytown politics. Resources (now all too scarce once again) get pulled nither & dither according to the numbskull politicians that run this place!:P

antoobrien

corktina wrote: »

It's my memory (although it's been hotly denied on here before) that the people of Buttevant campaigned against a bypass, probably around 1990

They wouldn't be the only ones to have done that. I remember a few dozen villages across the country all saying that bypasses would blah blah blah, then change their minds 10 years later.

AugustusMinimus

What was the reasoning behind prioritising the M18 ahead of the M20 ? Shannon Airport ?

Is N18 traffic heavier than M20 ?

TINA1984

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What was the reasoning behind prioritising the M18 ahead of the M20 ? Shannon Airport ?

Is N18 traffic heavier than M20 ?

From memory I believe the prioritisation of Gort/Tuam was Frank Fahey's doing in the dying days of the bubble.

Looking at the NRA Traffic counts, the Crusheen/Gort bypass numbers seem very low. That probably should have been the scheme to have been 'put on hold' to allow the M20 northern section to have been built.

antoobrien

TINA1984 wrote: »

From memory I believe the prioritisation of Gort/Tuam was Frank Fahey's doing in the dying days of the bubble.

Gort - Tuam was an original transport 21 initiative (the one that ran out in 2006), route selection started in 2000, the constraints study was publihsed in 2001, the route selection report was published in 2005.

The M20 constraints study was published in 2008 - as the bubble was bursting, so it's 7 years behind the M18 project.

Want to blame someone, blame Cork RDO & CCC.

mydiscworld

Fred Barry, CEO of National Roads Authority, is in front of Oireachtas Committee this morning.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/live-mediaplayer/

Committee Room 1

He has just spoken on many routes, inc. Cork to Limerick. Said it was a Gov policy decision to cease progression on this route so cannot comment further.

Chris_5339762

M18 was pushed so much due to political pressure, decentralisation and the need to do some funding in the west. Also Ennis was a worse bottleneck than anything on the N20, Gort was an awful place to try and get through also.

The Cork and Limerick TDs of the time didn't push the M20 at all basically, with the result that we are stuck with the N20 as it is for the foreseeable future.

TINA1984

antoobrien wrote: »

Gort - Tuam was an original transport 21 initiative (the one that ran out in 2006), route selection started in 2000, the constraints study was publihsed in 2001, the route selection report was published in 2005.

The M20 constraints study was published in 2008 - as the bubble was bursting, so it's 7 years behind the M18 project.

Want to blame someone, blame Cork RDO & CCC.

That's the M20 project as we know it now you're referring to, I believe the original plan was a Mallow - Croom Dual Carriageway which was on the NRA's 'to do' list since the early naughties and completion of the Croom bypass.

antoobrien

TINA1984 wrote: »

That's the M20 project as we know it now you're referring to, I believe the original plan was a Mallow - Croom Dual Carriageway which was on the NRA's 'to do' list since the early naughties and completion of the Croom bypass.

Funny but there's no mention of that project as a pre-existing project in the 1998 Road traffic needs study (unlike the Galway bypass which was stated as being something that was already under investigation as a future requirement).

It is instead identified as a backlog phase project, which means that it was not exactly high priority (same priority as Collooney to Tobercurry). The N20 projects identified as phase 1 are the Limerick Ring Road, Buttevant to Charleville and Charleville bypass and Cork to Mallow as Phase 3.

Compared to the N17/18 corridor, we see the Tuam Bypass, Tuam - Claregalway (now Rathmorrissey, near Athenry) and Oranmore (now Rathmorrissey, near Athenry) to Gort were all categorised as phase 1.

TINA1984

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The Cork and Limerick TDs of the time didn't push the M20 at all basically, with the result that we are stuck with the N20 as it is for the foreseeable future.

Given the N20 passes through more rural parts of 3 large geographical constituencies, with 'local' TD's coming from parts of the constituencies where other road projects like the the M7, M8, N22 & N25 took priority.

TINA1984

antoobrien wrote: »

Funny but there's no mention of that project as a pre-existing project in the 1998 Road traffic needs study (unlike the Galway bypass which was stated as being something that was already under investigation as a future requirement).

It is instead identified as a backlog phase project, which means that it was not exactly high priority (same priority as Collooney to Tobercurry). The N20 projects identified as phase 1 are the Limerick Ring Road, Buttevant to Charleville and Charleville bypass and Cork to Mallow as Phase 3.

Evidently somewhere between 1998 and the early naughties the decision was taken to prioritise the Croom bypass (backlog project according to the 1998 study), and roll the Croom - Charleville sections (backlog) Charleville - Buttevant (priority 1) & Buttevant - Mallow (Backlog) into 1 project. Wonder how that happened.

In fact its rather similar to what happened in the late naughties with the rolling of the Adare Bypass, CNRR & Mallow - Croom DC & Mallow/Blarney improvement into one project.

antoobrien wrote: »

Compared to the N17/18 corridor, we see the Tuam Bypass, Tuam - Claregalway (now Rathmorrissey, near Athenry) and Oranmore (now Rathmorrissey, near Athenry) to Gort were all categorised as phase 1.

Yet the N18 Gort - Crusheen was identified as a backlog project in that very same report, yet somehow it sneaked its way to the front of the line for a Motorway. In fact the entirety of the current M18 north of Shannon was identified as a backlog project in the 1998 report, The plot thickens...