Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

OldNotWIse · 13-06-2013 12:22PM

MaxWig wrote: »

This point is raised quite a bit, and I have to say I have no idea where it comes from.

Every system, every single one, has in-built safeguards against abuse. Why would pregnant women be any less prone abusing a system.

If you are pro-choice, I understand that you believes the need shouldn't arise.

But as it does arise, I think its a little silly to suggest that accounting for abuse is some kind of slight against 'women'.

Women are potential liars.
Women are potential criminals.
Men are potential liars.
Men are potential criminals etc etc

Agree. It is not some concerted effort to "get at" women. It just happens that women are the ones who become pregnant. If it were men, then the safeguards would apply to them. Care workers are Garda vetted because they will be working with young/vulnerable people. This is to safeguard against abuse...it is not a declaration that "all care workers are potential paedophiles" or "all care workers want to abuse the system and take advantage of vulnerable citizens". In fact, if one were to come out with a statement like, "a careworkers word that he/she will not abuse children should be enough to convince us", you'd be (rightly) laughed at.

eviltwin · 13-06-2013 12:29PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I dont see the issue. In many instances people go before boards/panels, not just one person. A woman for whom an abortion is genuinely the right solution will have nothing to worry about...whether she goes before 1, 2 or 3 experts.

Its very intimidating though. Expressing the desire to have an abortion is hard to do to one doctor even one you know is open and not going to give you a hard time about it. Having to talk about to a panel to plead my case would scare me.

Does anyone know if there will be someone to talk on behalf of the woman or will she be on her own?

OldNotWIse · 13-06-2013 12:30PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Its very intimidating though. Expressing the desire to have an abortion is hard to do to one doctor even one you know is open and not going to give you a hard time about it. Having to talk about to a panel to plead my case would scare me.

Does anyone know if there will be someone to talk on behalf of the woman or will she be on her own?

Agree, I cant personally imagine what that would be like (as a gay woman, I will likely never be faced with a crisis pregnancy, and actually really want a bbay anyway) but I see your point. Im imagine they would have to assign a counsellor or something?

eviltwin · 13-06-2013 12:34PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Agree, I cant personally imagine what that would be like (as a gay woman, I will likely never be faced with a crisis pregnancy, and actually really want a bbay anyway) but I see your point. Im imagine they would have to assign a counsellor or something?

I think it would be essential to have a third party there. I know I find it hard to articulate my depression to my own doctor who is a very patient lovely person. I would freeze in front of a panel. For young women in particular who maybe don't have the confidence to speak up for themselves or who have never had to deal with anyone in authority before leaving them to fend for themselves wouldn't be wise. I know I would insist on someone being there for my daughter.

Da Shins Kelly · 13-06-2013 12:34PM

I don't understand the need for six on the panel. Why not have a trusted psychiatrist of the patient do an evaluation and then go for a second opinion? Having a suicidally depressed woman go to six different people to plead her case seems like a lot to me, especially for those in a vulnerable position.

rainbow kirby · 13-06-2013 12:35PM

What will happen in reality is that anyone who can afford it will still travel to avoid that, and it will be the absolute most vulnerable women who have to face it - very young girls, migrant women who do not have visas for other EU countries, women with very low incomes, women on probation etc.

OldNotWIse · 13-06-2013 12:38PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

What will happen in reality is that anyone who can afford it will still travel to avoid that, and it will be the absolute most vulnerable women who have to face it - very young girls, migrant women who do not have visas for other EU countries, women with very low incomes, women on probation etc.

Actually thats a good point. I'm pro-life but I would agree with these concerns

Obliq · 13-06-2013 12:57PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Actually thats a good point. I'm pro-life but I would agree with these concerns

Sorry now, but what rock were you under that you hadn't realised that already? We're all pro-life in actual fact OldNotWise - nobody wants to see unnecessary death. Pro-choice/pro-life are not mutually exclusive standpoints. People who are pro-choice, in the main, are not thinking of themselves, they are thinking of those vulnerable women who can't access abortions in the UK for whatever reason. They are concerned about women who may be trapped by her circumstances into continuing a crisis pregnancy, or perhaps risking 14 years in jail for buying pills and obtaining an abortion that way, or who are forced to run the gamut of this sh1te legislation (at the stage of being suicidal).

Nice. Nice one Ireland. Keep your heads firmly in the sand there lads n lassies, real life isn't that pretty sometimes - tis not Disney Land up here - best not to look.:mad:

Obliq · 13-06-2013 01:02PM

OldNotWise, I know I directed the first couple of sentences at you, but sorry if it reads like I'm angry with you - I'm not. I'm just gutted for Irish women in general, and your previous comment triggered a small bit of how I feel about the "ostrich syndrome" that so many anti-abortion people seem to hold (until such time as their daughter has a crisis pregnancy, for eg.). Apologies. I'm so burned out over this, I shouldn't comment at all I reckon

OldNotWIse · 13-06-2013 01:10PM

Obliq wrote: »

OldNotWise, I know I directed the first couple of sentences at you, but sorry if it reads like I'm angry with you - I'm not. I'm just gutted for Irish women in general, and your previous comment triggered a small bit of how I feel about the "ostrich syndrome" that so many anti-abortion people seem to hold (until such time as their daughter has a crisis pregnancy, for eg.). Apologies. I'm so burned out over this, I shouldn't comment at all I reckon

um...ok

Obliq · 13-06-2013 01:16PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

um...ok

Thanks. Sorry again - feeling explosive today. I think I shall go argue with my garden for a while.

eviltwin · 13-06-2013 01:19PM

Obliq wrote: »

OldNotWise, I know I directed the first couple of sentences at you, but sorry if it reads like I'm angry with you - I'm not. I'm just gutted for Irish women in general, and your previous comment triggered a small bit of how I feel about the "ostrich syndrome" that so many anti-abortion people seem to hold (until such time as their daughter has a crisis pregnancy, for eg.). Apologies. I'm so burned out over this, I shouldn't comment at all I reckon

Totally get how you feel. If I see one more comment about how this is a great day and a huge step forward I'll scream. Yes, we're in a better place marginally than we were last week but I'm not going to get excited at a few scraps thrown to the pro choice side. Nothing will really change. Ireland still has a very restrictive abortion law, women will still go to other countries in their thousands and the status quo will remain the same.

cdaly_ · 13-06-2013 01:45PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

While I'm glad some progress is being made, it's not enough. This bill is only scratching the surface. First of all, it's a disgrace that fetal abnormalities and cases of incest and rape have not been included. Furthermore, the opinions of women barely matter, there is room for women to be called liars over the suicide issue, there's no explicit mention of mental health at all and the threat of up to 14 years in jail for not adhering to the rules. Women are still being treated as criminals and potential liars. Polls taken recently show that the majority quite clearly favour laws more far-reaching than this bill allows. Enda Kenny can go on about not being a Catholic Taoiseach all he likes, but saying it is one thing. It's entirely another to act upon it.

eviltwin wrote: »

Totally get how you feel. If I see one more comment about how this is a great day and a huge step forward I'll scream. Yes, we're in a better place marginally than we were last week but I'm not going to get excited at a few scraps thrown to the pro choice side. Nothing will really change. Ireland still has a very restrictive abortion law, women will still go to other countries in their thousands and the status quo will remain the same.

While I agree the 14 years thing is disgraceful, the government has no choice about fatal abnormalities, rape or the woman's health under the current constitution. That Enda is willing to stand up to the RC church and the anti-choice brigade is a step forward IMO.

The next step needed is a proper* referendum to determine the real will of the Irish People.

* where 'proper' means one where various options are proposed and the one that wins gets used, not one where the anti-choice brigade write a more restrictive version and we all have to vote 'no' again...

kylith · 13-06-2013 02:16PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Agree, I cant personally imagine what that would be like (as a gay woman, I will likely never be faced with a crisis pregnancy, and actually really want a bbay anyway) but I see your point. Im imagine they would have to assign a counsellor or something?

Being gay doesn't make you immune from crisis pregnancy though. You could still fall victim to rape, so don't assume that the legislation won't ever impact you because of your sexuality; it impacts all women in Ireland; from their first period to their last.

OldNotWIse · 13-06-2013 02:30PM

Obliq wrote: »

Thanks. Sorry again - feeling explosive today. I think I shall go argue with my garden for a while.

Tis grand, we're all human. I often explode at the other end of the abortion spectrum

(actually why I try to avoid threads!)

I wish I had a garden! Hate city, apartment life! Go enjoy!

OldNotWIse · 13-06-2013 02:35PM

kylith wrote: »

Being gay doesn't make you immune from crisis pregnancy though. You could still fall victim to rape, so don't assume that the legislation won't ever impact you because of your sexuality; it impacts all women in Ireland; from their first period to their last.

eek! True

I suppose for me, any pregnancy (even one brought on by rape) would not be a crisis one - although clearly the rape would be (for me that is, I am not for a moment suggesting that a raped woman should not be allowed a termination!) Then again...how do you really know if you're (thankfully) not in that situation. One can only assume how one would react, though this is not an assumption that I would seek to impose on others.

LittleBook · 13-06-2013 03:34PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

What will happen in reality is that anyone who can afford it will still travel to avoid that, and it will be the absolute most vulnerable women who have to face it - very young girls, migrant women who do not have visas for other EU countries, women with very low incomes, women on probation etc.

Yes absolutely, this is a very important socio-economic issue as well as everything else. Women who can afford or find (at short notice) the hundreds of euros it would cost to travel to the UK will manage (in spite of the legislation) but the poorest women are the ones who will find themselves trapped and, in some cases, desperate.

Having said that:

In social class terms, the best-off AB group was the most strongly in favour of abortion in the limited circumstances specified, with farmers being the least strongly in favour, followed by the DE category.

I'm not sure what the reasoning is there ...?

clairefontaine · 13-06-2013 04:24PM

I can't see how any self respecting psychiatrist will see aborfion as a cure for suicide. They usuallly prescribe Prozac for that. Makes a joke out of the mental health services.

looksee · 13-06-2013 04:35PM

There is apparently provision in the legislation that individual doctors will not be obliged to do abortions if they do not wish to. A recognition that there are doctors on both sides of the issue. So how will the members of the 'panel' be selected? Will there have to be an even number of 'pro' and 'anti' doctors on each panel?

kat.mac · 13-06-2013 04:55PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I can't see how any self respecting psychiatrist will see aborfion as a cure for suicide. They usuallly prescribe Prozac for that. Makes a joke out of the mental health services.

Wow.

clairefontaine · 13-06-2013 05:02PM

looksee wrote: »

There is apparently provision in the legislation that individual doctors will not be obliged to do abortions if they do not wish to. A recognition that there are doctors on both sides of the issue. So how will the members of the 'panel' be selected? Will there have to be an even number of 'pro' and 'anti' doctors on each panel?

This entire set up makes the HSE look like a joke clown.

Bluegrass1 · 13-06-2013 06:47PM

I AM PRO-LIFE.

Yet, at this moment I feel so much despair at this government's prosposal on the rights (OR LACK OF) of a poor little innocent CHILD IN THE WOMB. Why, oh why does one have to wait to be pregnant to commit MURDER surely one can go ahead right now, there are plenty around MUCH more deserving!!!

Oh, don't tell me it's the law!

efb · 13-06-2013 06:51PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I can't see how any self respecting psychiatrist will see aborfion as a cure for suicide. They usuallly prescribe Prozac for that. Makes a joke out of the mental health services.

You can't cure suicide. I find Ronan Mullen's comments offensive regarding mental health

inocybe · 13-06-2013 06:52PM

looksee wrote: »

There is apparently provision in the legislation that individual doctors will not be obliged to do abortions if they do not wish to. A recognition that there are doctors on both sides of the issue. So how will the members of the 'panel' be selected? Will there have to be an even number of 'pro' and 'anti' doctors on each panel?

Reading a pro-life letter published in a newspaper, I was dismayed to see the signatures of practically all of the consultant obstetricians at my local hospital. What happens if all of the doctors present opt out. I can imagine you'd get nurses refusing as well. Will women end up as pariahs stuck in the corner of the gyne ward with people refusing to serve them food? That will certainly help someone who feels suicidal :mad:

FouxDaFaFa · 13-06-2013 06:54PM

Bluegrass1 wrote: »

Oh, don't tell me it's the law!

It is, though.

And it has been for 20 years or so.

I'm sorry you're distressed but this is legislation that will only be enacted when a pregnant woman is dying.

Not sick, dying.

Regardless of your views, surely you have to empathise with women in this position?

FouxDaFaFa · 13-06-2013 06:59PM

inocybe wrote: »

Reading a pro-life letter published in a newspaper, I was dismayed to see the signatures of practically all of the consultant obstetricians at my local hospital. What happens if all of the doctors present opt out.

I was wondering about this. I'm not familiar with the law in this area but would appreciate if someone could clarify what would happen if a woman was in imminent danger of death if she didn't receive a termination but there was no-one around willing to perform it?

Are medical professionals compelled to save the woman in that circumstance or would their personal beliefs allow them not to intervene?

Basically, can doctors be compelled to do this and could they be held accountable if they didn't and a woman died?

clairefontaine · 13-06-2013 07:26PM

efb wrote: »

You can't cure suicide. I find Ronan Mullen's comments offensive regarding mental health

I don't know whom Ronan Mullen is so I can't comment on that.

Exactly. You can't cure suicide by abortion. I'f a woman has pre natal depression or some other cause of suicidal ideation or attempts, most doctors would apply regular recognised treatments, such as therapy and medication. I doubt abortion is recognised by any reputable mental health authority to treat depressive states.

They should either allow abortion or not allow it. This policy is a mockery and an embarrassment.

wonderfulname · 13-06-2013 07:29PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I can't see how any self respecting psychiatrist will see aborfion as a cure for suicide. They usuallly prescribe Prozac for that. Makes a joke out of the mental health services.

I can't see how any self respecting person is buying into the "abortion is not a cure" line, nobody ever said it was, that's a biased invention of the pro life crowd, at any rate suicide must be specifically mentioned in the bill as it was voted for by the Irish people who still agree with it's inclusion.

clairefontaine · 13-06-2013 07:34PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

I can't see how any self respecting person is buying into the "abortion is not a cure" line, nobody ever said it was, that's a biased invention of the pro life crowd, at any rate suicide must be specifically mentioned in the bill as it was voted for by the Irish people who still agree with it's inclusion.

So then why are they treating it like it is one?

Don't you think it compromises the health professionals?

Don't you think medication should be applied to that a suicidal woman with prenatal depression can make a rational choice?

Are they going to give her an abortion and then hospitalise her in a mental institution because she is a risk to herself?

It's the dark ages again I guess.

B0jangles · 13-06-2013 07:39PM

As I understand it, the suicide inclusion is specifically to cover situations where the pregnant woman feels suicidal specifically because she cannot face continuing with an unwanted pregnancy, no one has seriously suggested that a person with existing, long-term suicidal thoughts unconnected to pregnancy will be magically cured of them if they have an abortion.

That's a strawman created by and then vigorously waved around by the anti-choice groups.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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