Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Justin1982

Morag wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Dude seriously are you utterly unaware of the campaigning that we have been doing?

Yes I'm aware of the campaigning. But its fairly tame. I havent seen too many women's rights activists getting too worked up outside Dublin or putting up much of a fight on TV debates. How much pro-choice campaigning goes on outside Dublin? F*ck all. Pro-choice women down the country would be too afraid to start or be involved in a rally in a small town in Ireland. I'm always looking at stupid debates on RTE and the pro-choice activists always get steam rolled by the pro-lifers. I'm always left feeling that the pro-choicers are easily put back in their box. Debate generally proceeds as follows: Pro-choicer starts talking about their rights. Pro-lifer goes mental and uses the old guilt trip argument. Pro-choicer then just shuts up.

I have to give the pro-life campaigners some credit. They are putting their message out there with military efficiency and are fairly in your face about it. They are harassing the hell out of the politicians and making sure that their propaganda gets into every house in the country.

Plus considering the numbers (Going to pull some rubbish off the top of my head). Lets say that just 40% of Irish women believe that Ireland should have strong abortion laws which put the mother's rights first.....How many of those women actually do much about it? Sweet f*ck all I'd say.

There is no way that men would put up with what women are happy to put up with and I'd say that more men are pro-choice than women are so I think women have mainly themselves to blame for their predicament.

confusticated

Justin1982 wrote: »

Yes I'm aware of the campaigning. But its fairly tame. I havent seen too many women's rights activists getting too worked up outside Dublin or putting up much of a fight on TV debates. How much pro-choice campaigning goes on outside Dublin? F*ck all. Pro-choice women down the country would be too afraid to start or be involved in a rally in a small town in Ireland. I'm always looking at stupid debates on RTE and the pro-choice activists always get steam rolled by the pro-lifers. I'm always left feeling that the pro-choicers are easily put back in their box. Debate generally proceeds as follows: Pro-choicer starts talking about their rights. Pro-lifer goes mental and uses the old guilt trip argument. Pro-choicer then just shuts up.

I have to give the pro-life campaigners some credit. They are putting their message out there with military efficiency and are fairly in your face about it. They are harassing the hell out of the politicians and making sure that their propaganda gets into every house in the country.

Plus considering the numbers (Going to pull some rubbish off the top of my head). Lets say that just 40% of Irish women believe that Ireland should have strong abortion laws which put the mother's rights first.....How many of those women actually do much about it? Sweet f*ck all I'd say.

There is no way that men would put up with what women are happy to put up with and I'd say that more men are pro-choice than women are so I think women have mainly themselves to blame for their predicament.

Aside from you just pulling assumptions about numbers and ratios of male/female prolife/prochoice out of thin air, do you not think that if way more men than women were prochoice, then our overwhelmingly male government would have done something about it before now? And if more men are prochoice than women, why is it only the women who have themselves to blame if the whole prochoice campaign is as quiet as you say it is?

And for the prochoice women "down the country [who're] too afraid to start or be involved in a rally in a small town" - honestly, can you blame them? A few extremely brave women have told their stories of abortion in public, some went to the Dáil about abortions in the case of non-viable foetuses. Were they listened to? Did the government take the slightest action to provide for future cases like them? Can you not see how that would put people off campaigning, or saying they had an abortion? The shame aspect needs to be taken away, but new laws proposing 14 year jail terms for women who get an abortion aren't going to do much for that.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

meeeeh

Justin1982 wrote: »

There is no way that men would put up with what women are happy to put up with and I'd say that more men are pro-choice than women are so I think women have mainly themselves to blame for their predicament.

Bull****. Unmarried fathers have very little rights, young boys can be accused of a rape if they have consensual sex with a girl of their age... And yet I don't see any big protests anywhere.

It's easy to be pro life, you mostly just say no to anything. Pro lchoice consist of people with way more diverse opinions. Secondly it consists of people that don't have their meetings organised after Sunday mass. There is more likely pro life people will be at mass and once you have them in the same room it is a lot easier to mobilise them. Pro lifers tend to be a lot more fanatical and for whatever reason RTE give time to every nutjob they can find. As stupid as were some comments Peter Mattgews made, he is actually one of the sanest pro lifers that were in different tv discussions.

Another problem is electoral system. Older and more traditional people are also more likely to vote and because people vote for politicians that write nice emails or get you passports those who want to stand for something and have very little interest in pleasing everybody, have a lot less of a chance to be elected.

To go off topic again, that Indo thing is clearly part of advertising campaign, the black background gives it away.

Morag

http://corkwomensrighttochoose.blogspot.ie/2013/03/cork-march-for-choice-huge-success_10.html

There is a whole alliance of pro choice groups in cork working together there have been several meetings and marches.

The same in Galway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVDTAaUXnfU

Back in November there were marches and vigils all over the country
in Dublin, belfast, wexford, cork kilkenny carlow and galway.
http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/1/post/2012/11/please-wear-white-protest-and-march-update.html

The pro life side has funding form the USA and uses the church parish structures to get people out, were as the pro choice side has to build up a structure from scratch.

So prochoice women and men, are organizing and lobbying and are writing articles and letters to the paper and are marching.

I posted out the legislate for X postcards to people all over the country who emailed in asking for them.

FouxDaFaFa

Justin1982 wrote: »

I have to give the pro-life campaigners some credit. They are putting their message out there with military efficiency and are fairly in your face about it. They are harassing the hell out of the politicians and making sure that their propaganda gets into every house in the country.

There is no way that men would put up with what women are happy to put up with and I'd say that more men are pro-choice than women are so I think women have mainly themselves to blame for their predicament.

Do you know how pro-lifers are doing this? It's not fairy dust. It's money. If there is a pro-life protest in Dublin, there will be free buses there from every major city in the country. They will give away ipads. They will mass-produce shiny placards, to the extent where you are not allowed to bring a home-made sign. Looks better for the cameras. There are professional PR firms behind this.

If I want to go to a pro-life protest in Dublin from Galway, it costs me nothing.

If I want to go a pro-choice protest, it will cost me 20e on a bus. It might sound petty but it is a real reason why these pro-choice protests don't get staggering numbers.

Pro-life groups can afford to erect billboards, take out newspaper advertisements, distribute leaflets to thousands of houses. Pro-choice groups aren't doing the same not because they're lazy, but because they can't conjure money out of thin air.

As mentioned already, our government is 85% male. I believe males may have some small part to play in pregnancies. So no, I don't think it should all be up to us or that we are to "blame" for our "predicament".

Frito

Justin1982 wrote: »

If it was guys who were affected by this then I doubt that there would be much ado about it. We would have had it sorted long ago.

Heaven loves ya
The clouds part for ya
Nothing stands in your way
When you're a boy

Boys
Boys
Boys keep swinging
Boys always work it out

Justin1982

confusticated wrote: »

Aside from you just pulling assumptions about numbers and ratios of male/female prolife/prochoice out of thin air, do you not think that if way more men than women were prochoice, then our overwhelmingly male government would have done something about it before now? And if more men are prochoice than women, why is it only the women who have themselves to blame if the whole prochoice campaign is as quiet as you say it is?

And for the prochoice women "down the country [who're] too afraid to start or be involved in a rally in a small town" - honestly, can you blame them? A few extremely brave women have told their stories of abortion in public, some went to the Dáil about abortions in the case of non-viable foetuses. Were they listened to? Did the government take the slightest action to provide for future cases like them? Can you not see how that would put people off campaigning, or saying they had an abortion? The shame aspect needs to be taken away, but new laws proposing 14 year jail terms for women who get an abortion aren't going to do much for that.

I'm only kinda pulling figures out of nowhere. I have looked up some statistics a few months ago like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland
I could be wrong about supposing that men are more pro-choice than women. But I'm fairly sure I came across abortion statistics before that had the male/female breakdown. I'm too lazy to go rooting for them now though.

Well the majority of Irish public support fairly liberal abortion laws according to the latest statistics quoted in above link. I'd say that there is a large proportion of pro-choice politicians in Ireland, probably not a majority though. Politicians tend to be conservative old goats generally. They usually take the view of the majority of people who vote for them and are heavily influenced by the constituents who contact them. I'd say that more pro-lifers vote than pro-choice do. Pro-lifers definitely harass their local politicians more also. And if there is an abortion referendum then pro-lifers are more likely to get up and vote than pro-choice. So go figure. Otherwise I cant understand how liberal abortion laws are supported by the majority of public yet rejected by politicians and referendums.

And yeah I do blame the women down the country. I still think they need to grow a pair of balls. I think women need to grow a pair of balls on a number of fronts, not just abortion. Women are too concerned about what others will think about them if they step out of line. Men generally dont give two flying ducks what others think of them. Men brag about how many women they have had sex with for example. Women are very secretive about their sex lives, afraid that someone might interpret their behaviour as being "a slut".

At the end of the day, I'm a guy and abortion doesnt really affect me. Its really none of my business anyway. But until women really get their act together and really stand up for their rights like they have done in Britain, well several thousand plus Irish women will continue to travel to Britain for an abortion every year and another number will have babies that they really did not plan or want.

I think any argument that Irish men are the root cause of non-liberal abortion laws or lack of women in politics is monkey nuts also. The Catholic church does not have much control over Irish opinion these days even in the most backward of Irish towns/villages.
If anything, the majority of Irish men are absolute suckers for doing whatever Irish women want.

Justin1982

meeeeh wrote: »

Bull****. Unmarried fathers have very little rights, young boys can be accused of a rape if they have consensual sex with a girl of their age... And yet I don't see any big protests anywhere.

I havent the slightest idea what rights unmarried fathers have. I'm not sure that too many men would consider it a big deal either or if its such a massive problem in this country.
Where it has been a bit of a problem is Britain and the fathers have been fairly militant about the subject since the 90's.
Anyway, its not really going to physically affect the health of any man the same way that a pregnancy is going to affect a mother.

I doubt there is too many young lads getting in trouble for underage sex. I'd bet that 99% of them (that dont end up becoming fathers or the proud owner of an STD) are walking around with very happy looking heads on them. Anyway, a kick in the hole would probably do the little buggers a bit of good. Underage teenagers having unprotected sex seems to becoming a bit of a problem these days.

Frito

Justin, you've rightly pointed out the paradox of a population that support legislating for abortion in defined circumstances which has been disregarded until now by successive governments who are placed to legislate for the people.

Your explanation for this is that pro-choice women are not militantly organising themselves in the same manner the pro-life side have, ergo it's our fault that legislation has been so slow to materialise.

It's a blunt manner of speaking but I do see your point. I'm sure you understand the complexities of the divide on abortion along religious, ethical and feminist lines but before action you need discourse. And it is happening now. But it has taken deaths, not voices, for this to come about. You see what we're up against?

confusticated

Take a look in the parenting forum and you'll see a lot of men who consider it a big deal that they don't get to see their kids.

You think that abortion doesn't affect you and isn't any of your business, just because you're a man? Do you not think it affects the husbands, boyfriends and partners of the women who get an abortion? Seriously? Okay, it's not their physical health, it's not going to be their lives at risk, but the emotions of finding out your baby won't live past birth, and maybe wanting not to prolong the suffering (of parents and baby) affects the fathers too. It also affects them if the woman can't afford to go to England, because they can end up financially responsible for the child for 18 years.

This isn't just a women's problem, this is Ireland's problem.

FouxDaFaFa

Justin1982 wrote: »

I havent the slightest idea what rights unmarried fathers have. Anyway, its not really going to physically affect the health of any man the same way that a pregnancy is going to affect a mother.

I don't mean to attack you but I'm sure that lots of people, myself included, consider this a huge deal.

While you may not suffer physical wounds, I'm sure there are lots of fathers who become separated from their families and have it take a huge toll on them mentally. Stress, financial difficulties, alcohol abuse, suicidal ideation. None of these would be a stretch if you are an unmarried father being denied the right to see your child/children.

I'm a woman and I care about this because it might happen to my brother or male friends, etc. I don't think I should limit myself to caring about women's issues. Just like pro-choice campaigners can not all be women. We need the support of men too, despite the fact that they will never be pregnant.

peble

Really its time for Ireland to completely change the way it thinks...why would you want to stop someone from having abortion,when already people here actually like to have kids .But what about the people who don't want kids and are not prepared financially why would you want them to have kids so that after all the tax payers money go for them or even pregnant women who are at risk not to be able to determine what steps to take . This change for sure won't happen soon but lets hope its in the next 5 years

Justin1982

Frito wrote: »

Justin, you've rightly pointed out the paradox of a population that support legislating for abortion in defined circumstances which has been disregarded until now by successive governments who are placed to legislate for the people.

Your explanation for this is that pro-choice women are not militantly organising themselves in the same manner the pro-life side have, ergo it's our fault that legislation has been so slow to materialise.

It's a blunt manner of speaking but I do see your point. I'm sure you understand the complexities of the divide on abortion along religious, ethical and feminist lines but before action you need discourse. And it is happening now. But it has taken deaths, not voices, for this to come about. You see what we're up against?

Yeah I can see what your up against and yeah I am blunt.
But abortion law that protects women will only come into place if the women of Ireland really demand it and work for it. Reality is that noone else is going to do the work for you and the work being done at the moment is not enough. Men just are not bothered generally and I'm not sure that they should be considered in the process anyway.
One of the biggest problems is that Irish women are generally too nice and roll over too easily when it comes to kids and parenting.

Women cant expect things to change too much on abortion front through a small amount of vigils in the major cities of Ireland and some dialogue.

Its absolutely insulting to women to listen to politicians, psychiatrists and doctors talk about abortion in the Oireachtas Health Committee. They seem to just assume that women dont have the ability to decide for themselves whether they should have a baby or not.

The laws that come out of this whole "nice and talkative" process will change very little for women as far as I can see.
And thousands of Irish women will continue to travel to Britain for abortions. God only knows how many Irish women will resort to dangerous home made solutions or underground abortion clinics here in Ireland and the secrecy will continue. And to think that Irish women who are considered for abortion will have to stand in front of how many ****in doctors/psychologists to persuade them that they are suicidal so that they can get an abortion.

Morag

Justin1982 wrote: »

Women are too concerned about what others will think about them if they step out of line. Men generally dont give two flying ducks what others think of them. Men brag about how many women they have had sex with for example. Women are very secretive about their sex lives, afraid that someone might interpret their behaviour as being "a slut".

Yep and given how many sexual partners a woman has had plays a part of how moral and trust worthy she is and how 'rape' able she is if she tries to press charges for sexual assault or rape, and it being known that she has had a highish number means certain creeps will think it means they can 'have a go' I don't blame them for being quiet and conservative.

Frito

Justin the reality is people, not just women, are demanding this. Like other political lobbying, it snowballs. That is the basis of democracy. It won't happen overnight but it is moving.

You litter your posts with phrases like 'insulting' and 'disgusting' yet maintain no action is required by you as abortion doesn't affect you.

As your critique is calling for militant action then I'll respond. This one is for you. Abortion is necessary for the protection of women. This might affect you, it might not. But why are you tolerating something you find disgusting and insulting? Go and exercise your power, lobby your tds, and encourage others to do the same. Else you're being hypocritical.

meeeeh

Justin1982 wrote: »

I havent the slightest idea what rights unmarried fathers have. I'm not sure that too many men would consider it a big deal either or if its such a massive problem in this country.
Where it has been a bit of a problem is Britain and the fathers have been fairly militant about the subject since the 90's.
Anyway, its not really going to physically affect the health of any man the same way that a pregnancy is going to affect a mother.

I doubt there is too many young lads getting in trouble for underage sex. I'd bet that 99% of them (that dont end up becoming fathers or the proud owner of an STD) are walking around with very happy looking heads on them. Anyway, a kick in the hole would probably do the little buggers a bit of good. Underage teenagers having unprotected sex seems to becoming a bit of a problem these days.

What you don't understand is that we function as a society only when we try to understand what the life is like from someone else's perspective. I'm not gay but I do think they should have the same rights as the rest of us and I would vote for that and support that. The same with issues I mentioned earlier. And you don't even understand why right to abortion matters. Yes the phisical side of it matters but unless your life is in danger (small percentage) it's the result, the baby that affects your life and that includes baby's father in majority of cases. I hate the 'it's my body' argument. It's way too narrow. It should be 'it's my life' but in most cases it should actually be 'it's about our lives'. And as long as people like you will consider it as 'their problem' and just try to teach women what they should do, nothing will change. Abortion legalislation is where it is because too many people think it's not their problem and not because there are too many pro life country women.

Morag

Hopefully some ye will join us today, the weather's looking good at least.
4pm central bank on Dame st, to march to the Dáil.

LittleBook

Anger as group compares abortion to holocaust

Cork householders have hit out at an anti-abortion group that has compared abortion to the Holocaust.

The leaflets were sent in suburbs of Cork city over the past three days. They show a picture of bodies piled up alongside a picture of an aborted foetus, and state: “The German people let this happen because they didn’t speak out. Are you and I going to let this happen?”

Maayan Yolzari, a Cork woman from a Jewish background, said: “This is a disgusting attempt to compare the new abortion legislation aimed at protecting women’s lives to the awful events of the Holocaust. As a Cork resident, I find this propaganda completely offensive.”

I suppose it was only a matter of time before the anti-abortionists godwinned the debate ... actually, I'm surprised it didn't come sooner! :rolleyes:

loveisdivine

LittleBook wrote: »

Anger as group compares abortion to holocaust



I suppose it was only a matter of time before the anti-abortionists godwinned the debate ... actually, I'm surprised it didn't come sooner! :rolleyes:

Dont even need to look at the article to know which group would stoop that low.

rainbow kirby

15.41 – Professor Kevin Malone of St Vincent’s Hospital and UCD is the first to speak. He begins by saying the legislation is based on a 20-year-old assessment of risk of suicidality (.e. the X case) and excludes 50 per cent of the population: men.

He says he has been studying suicide in Ireland for the last 10 years and says this legislation could inadvertently increase the suicide risk among men in Ireland. The legislation may lead to a greater loss of life rather than life-saving, he says.

He asks how mental health literature will be taught in schools, saying suicidality will be legitimised for women in some circumstances, but not for men, despite their much higher rate of suicide.

Awful whack of male privilege off that... no life-saving legislation for women because it might affect men :rolleyes:

wolfpawnat

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Awful whack of male privilege off that... no life-saving legislation for women because it might affect men :rolleyes:

I fail to see how abortion under extreme circumstances (which is this legislation) could increase male suicide risk I don't get it. What plausible link does he have?

Male suicide is bigger, that is fact, and it needs to be dealt with, again fact, but that is toss all to do with the situation at hand.

kylith

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I fail to see how abortion under extreme circumstances (which is this legislation) could increase male suicide risk I don't get it. What plausible link does he have?

Male suicide is bigger, that is fact, and it needs to be dealt with, again fact, but that is toss all to do with the situation at hand.

The only possible connection I can come up with is that if a suicidal woman is granted an abortion her male partner might kill himself because he wanted the baby.

Or maybe the fact that women threatening suicide while pregnant will be recognised means that men will feel left out, which will drive them to suicide.


Honestly, I have no idea what he thinks he's talking about.

sillysmiles

I had the misfortune to read an "opinion" piece at the weekend in a back issue of the New Ross Standard where the columnist was giving out about Mick Wallace TD's liberal opinion on abortion. General I avoid the abortion debate but I was flicking through the paper and starting reading this. The problem I have with it is the the author (Ger Walsh) tries to "take it to the extreme" and suggests a woman might have an abortion cause
"might be due to go on an exclusive foreign holiday but an unexpected pregnancy could interfere with her plan and how she might look on the beach. Or there could be an unexpected pregnancy in the run up to a family wedding, ruining the chances of fitting into a very expensive dress.'
Article Title "Does Wallace really represent our views on abortion?"

I can't link the article because it seems the back issues wont let me access this column.
I've taken the quoted text from a letter to the paper on 14th of May.
http://newrossstandard.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

I understand that people are pro-choice or anti-abortion but I really feel like this guy only sees women as vain breeding machine and that a woman would have an abortion to fit into a dress.

wolfpawnat

kylith wrote: »

The only possible connection I can come up with is that if a suicidal woman is granted an abortion her male partner might kill himself because he wanted the baby.

Or maybe the fact that women threatening suicide while pregnant will be recognised means that men will feel left out, which will drive them to suicide.


Honestly, I have no idea what he thinks he's talking about.

I'd feel for a man who wants to be a father but is not being given the chance, I have no doubt that is heartbreaking. That said, as a pregnant woman, heartburn, exhaustion, broken sleep, nausea and the fact I was told I now have to have surgery for the safe delivery of the baby, the final say should always be with us as we are the ones bearing the brunt of the load. Sure men in a relationship should get a say, but not the overall. But anyway, that's not the discussion here. I just fail to see his logic for that comment, it has nothing to do with the topic of suicidal women/X case in general.

sillysmiles wrote: »

I had the misfortune to read an "opinion" piece at the weekend in a back issue of the New Ross Standard where the columnist was giving out about Mick Wallace TD's liberal opinion on abortion. General I avoid the abortion debate but I was flicking through the paper and starting reading this. The problem I have with it is the the author (Ger Walsh) tries to "take it to the extreme" and suggests a woman might have an abortion cause
"might be due to go on an exclusive foreign holiday but an unexpected pregnancy could interfere with her plan and how she might look on the beach. Or there could be an unexpected pregnancy in the run up to a family wedding, ruining the chances of fitting into a very expensive dress.'

I understand that people are pro-choice or anti-abortion but I really feel like this guy only sees women as vain breeding machine and that a woman would have an abortion to fit into a dress.

I have to laugh as since these days, to be pregnant is somewhat in vogue. There are gorgeous dresses for pregnant women and so many women are pregnant that it is somewhat laughable that people would think fashion would be a reason not to have a baby. I am sure there are the tiny few (and I mean about 2/3 women) that think like that somewhere in the world, but there are more people who think that people think like that as opposed to people who actually do think like that.

It says more about the man than it does about us women really.

sillysmiles

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It says more about the man than it does about us women really.

True.

I can't decide if

1) he is trying to get at the TD and the abortion thing is just a tool.
or
2) he thinks this and is trying to influence the public opinion and doing so without any need to for balance because it is an opinion piece
or
3) he is trying to "sensationalise " a small town paper and get people talking about it as in subsequent weeks there have been responses to his piece.

If any of these are the case I think it is a pretty vile piece of so called journalism.

BlimpGaz

Faith wrote: »

I feel constantly frustrated by the whole debate. Constantly. Why some people feel it's their god-given right to dictate what others do with their body will forever remain a mystery to me.

True, it's not their right to tell you what you can or can't do with your body. However when you do go and do what you like with it, and end up pregnant, you DON'T have the right to do what you like with the body of another i.e. the unborn child, especially the most extreme action, as is abortion.

kat.mac

BlimpGaz wrote: »

True, it's not their right to tell you what you can or can't do with your body. However when you do go and do what you like with it, and end up pregnant, you DON'T have the right to do what you like with the body of another i.e. the unborn child, especially the most extreme action, as is abortion.

No, I don't, but I should.

BlimpGaz

Question:

If there was/is a method of simply "putting a human to sleep" i.e. facilitating them a 100% painless death, should a new-born child be legally allowed be given it if the parent/s of that child wish? I really don't see the difference between that and abortion, except studies have actually proven that it is possible for a 4+ month year old fetus to feel physical pain, so if anything it's not as bad. Anyone pro-choice people have an explanation?

Obliq

BlimpGaz wrote: »

Question:

If there was/is a method of simply "putting a human to sleep" i.e. facilitating them a 100% painless death, should a new-born child be legally allowed be given it if the parent/s of that child wish? I really don't see the difference between that and abortion, except studies have actually proven that it is possible for a 4+ month year old fetus to feel physical pain, so if anything it's not as bad. Anyone pro-choice people have an explanation?

Yeah, cos you can, like, see 4+month old fetus's strolling around outside the womb all the time right? YD even found one of them in a santa hat last year - off 2 visit santa and then back in the womb again with his christmas list written. "Deer santa, al I wont is a ps3 and medel of honer plees tankx"

Grate question bro.