Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Faith · 23-05-2013 09:23AM

There's an excellent blog post by an Anglican priest who, after much consideration due to the current debate, has decided to officially declare himself as being pro-choice: http://paddyanglican.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-abortion-debate-reluctantly-leaving.html

23-05-2013 09:50PM

Faith wrote: »

There's an excellent blog post by an Anglican priest who, after much consideration due to the current debate, has decided to officially declare himself as being pro-choice: http://paddyanglican.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-abortion-debate-reluctantly-leaving.html

A very brave thing to do.

I suspect the middle ground is mostly made up of people who have never had to face the question of how to handle an unwanted pregnancy, so they don't have a strong opinion on it (I don't mean to generalise, it's just the impression I get). As awful as some of these polarising debates can be, if they make people think more deeply about the issue of abortion and question their own viewpoints, they're doing something. I think everytime an Iona or YD wingbat gets onto the airwaves they do their cause more and more damage.

wolfpawnat · 23-05-2013 09:55PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

A very brave thing to do.

I suspect the middle ground is mostly made up of people who have never had to face the question of how to handle an unwanted pregnancy, so they don't have a strong opinion on it (I don't mean to generalise, it's just the impression I get). As awful as some of these polarising debates can be, if they make people think more deeply about the issue of abortion and question their own viewpoints, they're doing something. I think everytime an Iona or YD wingbat gets onto the airwaves they do their cause more and more damage.

Very true, for so long I was staunch, it's disgusting, those selfish cows, etc. (in my teen years) But as it became discussed more and more and I thought more and more about it with adult rationale, my opinion evolved. I cannot see myself going through with it one, but by thinking about it rationally, I can see why other women, and in many cases their partners too, opt for it, and I respect their decision to do so. And why my personal beliefs should never stop others from having a choice.

Morag · 23-05-2013 09:55PM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/td-sick-people-circulating-misleading-and-terrible-leaflets-232030.html

Seems more and more TDs are fed up with being targeted like that.

Faith · 24-05-2013 09:49AM

From the article Morag posted:

"The people doing this are not thinking of sensitive issues, like someone who might be pregnant or someone who recently had a miscarriage. They’re sick people."

Sadly, that's just wrong. The people distributing those leaflets are fully aware of sensitive issues, they just don't care. Maximum distress is their goal.

vitani · 24-05-2013 10:01AM

I was living in the UK when I got pregnant 3 years ago, so abortion was a very real and accessible option for me.

Even though it's not something I personally wanted to do, I appreciated having the choice. It took a lot of the panic away from those early weeks and it really helped me mentally (both before and after my daughter was born) to deal with a 'crisis' pregnancy as I knew that I had chosen freely to continue with it, rather than being trapped into doing so through having no other option.

I have no doubt that if I'd been living here when I got pregnant, it would have been a much more traumatic experience, even though the eventual outcome would have been the same.

Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. It means respecting women enough to give them options.

PAnglican · 24-05-2013 10:38AM

Thanks for your kind words - much appreciated, Stephen aka PaddyAnglican

Faith wrote: »

There's an excellent blog post by an Anglican priest who, after much consideration due to the current debate, has decided to officially declare himself as being pro-choice: http://paddyanglican.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-abortion-debate-reluctantly-leaving.html

Truley · 24-05-2013 10:43AM

vitani wrote: »

Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. It means respecting women enough to give them options.

I think just knowing they have options can be enough for most women, it gives women more confidence to go ahead with pregnancy and motherhood. I also think, ironically, that having abortion available in Ireland and removing the necessity to travel (and all the stress it incurs) could actually reduce the number of vulnerable women making rushed, panicked decisions to abort and ultimately regretting it.

lilmissprincess · 24-05-2013 11:25AM

http://www.thejournal.ie/tds-support-abortion-amendment-medical-terminations-922466-May2013/

This is some form of progress at least.

A NUMBER OF TDs from across all parties are set to work together on an amendment which could see pregnant women with babies suffering from fatal foetal abnormalities be provided with terminations or early inducements in Ireland.
The development comes after an afternoon meeting between advocacy group Terminations for Medical Reasons (TFMR) and a number of deputies, advisers and other stakeholders at Leinster House yesterday.
A total of 18 TDs and one Senator attended the session during which nine women and one man discussed the tragic loss of their babies. The stories were met with palpable emotion from those in the room.
Fine Gael’s Simon Harris noted that he had never been at a briefing where there were no questions or requests for clarification from the floor. He said, for him, the issue at hand was not one about abortion, pro-choice or pro-life it but a “specific issue that needs to be dealt with”. He told the women that the retelling of their experiences had a “profound impact”.
He was one of three Fine Gael deputies to offer vocal support to the group as they seek an amendment to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013.
Wicklow TD Andrew Doyle, who revealed that one of his children died shortly after childbirth 24 years ago as she suffered with anencephaly, also signalled his support for the women, noting that suicide ideation (which is included for in the heads of bill) is more “abstract”.
Dublin South-Central deputy Catherine Byrne thanked the women for sharing their “precious” memories, adding that there “has to be room somewhere” in the bill.
Independent Richard Boyd-Barrett, who chaired the meeting, said he will now work with a cross-party group on possible amendments. He also recalled his own personal tragedy, telling the room about the death of his baby girl not long after she was born.
He explained that he and his partner did not have a choice as they did not know the diagnosis of the baby but that it was “clear to them after that people in these traumatic situations should have all options open to them”.
TFMR says it has received legal advice from a number of experts that indicate an amendment to provide for medical terminations where the foetus is not compatible with life would be constitutional.

KamiKazeKitten · 24-05-2013 03:01PM

I spotted this over on Reddit and thought you all might like a look - it shows world abortion laws.
Kind of wish they showed it broken down into legislative levels (like USA broken down into state levels), but it's interesting anyway!

FouxDaFaFa · 12-06-2013 01:48PM

Enda Kenny mentioned today that he has been sent letters written in blood, plastic foetuses and religious paraphenalia in the post from, one would assume, disgruntled pro-lifers.

This follows death threats made against FG TD Regina Doherty after she confronted men who were distributing leaflets with graphic images and her photo and personal contact information.

Similar to leaflets targeting Fine Gael TD Jerry Buttimer in Cork last month, the leaflets contained images of a late-term foetus and the Holocaust alongside Ms Doherty’s picture and phone number.

Honestly, that is way more extreme than I would have imagined and I find it pretty shocking.

It must be an organised campaign. I mean, where would you casually buy plastic foetuses? It just highlights the need to keep the pressure on our politicians to let them know that they represent pro-choice views as well.

Morag · 12-06-2013 01:51PM

The plastic fetuses are mass made for the anti abortion groups in america and ordered in bulk.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-06-2013 01:54PM

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Enda Kenny mentioned today that he has been sent letters written in blood, plastic foetuses and religious paraphenalia in the post from, one would assume, disgruntled pro-lifers.

This follows death threats made against FG TD Regina Doherty after she confronted men who were distributing leaflets with graphic images and her photo and personal contact information.

Honestly, that is way more extreme than I would have imagined and I find it pretty shocking.

It must be an organised campaign. I mean, where would you casually buy plastic foetuses? It just highlights the need to keep the pressure on our politicians to let them know that they represent pro-choice views as well.

there was a protest outside a local FG td's home in my area and some lovely leaflets with graphic pics of dead babies (full term) showing signs of decompoisition, along with the mobile number of the TD delivered to all our houses Sick f**ers....

12-06-2013 02:03PM

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

This follows death threats made against FG TD Regina Doherty after she confronted men who were distributing leaflets with graphic images and her photo and personal contact information.

Yeah, "pro life" my backside

MaxWig · 12-06-2013 02:47PM

I consider myself an intelligent, well-educated and open-minded individual (albeit male

).

I'm as uncomfortable with the level of debate as many of the posters here.

Personally, I don't consider myself pro-choice or pro-life.
I resent the polarisation of the debate, and the suggestion that it is a simple decision to reach.

Of course I can never understand the emotional impact, and fear that must accompany becoming pregnant at any stage, be it for the first time or the fifth time.

I'm not sure however that it can be reduced to a women's rights issue.

I have no religion - though I was raised in 80's Ireland in a CBS, listening to the same old sh1te as most from priests and brothers etc.
I'm sure my outlook on life has been shaped and influenced to some degree by this.

However, I am simply not comfortable with the suggestion that one must either side with the priest or the medic.

I envy those who are certain in their convictions regarding abortion - on either side.

kat.mac · 12-06-2013 03:36PM

MaxWig wrote: »

I consider myself an intelligent, well-educated and open-minded individual (albeit male ).

I'm as uncomfortable with the level of debate as many of the posters here.

Personally, I don't consider myself pro-choice or pro-life.
I resent the polarisation of the debate, and the suggestion that it is a simple decision to reach.

Of course I can never understand the emotional impact, and fear that must accompany becoming pregnant at any stage, be it for the first time or the fifth time.

I'm not sure however that it can be reduced to a women's rights issue.

I have no religion - though I was raised in 80's Ireland in a CBS, listening to the same old sh1te as most from priests and brothers etc.
I'm sure my outlook on life has been shaped and influenced to some degree by this.

However, I am simply not comfortable with the suggestion that one must either side with the priest or the medic.

I envy those who are certain in their convictions regarding abortion - on either side.

Your feelings are both common and understandable. It's black and white for me, but I absolutely realise that it's a murky, grey area for many people. There's nothing simple about the actual decision to have a termination, no matter what the circumstances. I guess it follows that the debate surrounding it would be similarly complex.

What certain people are resorting to as part of that debate is what is getting to me.

Morag · 12-06-2013 08:52PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poll-suggests-overwhelming-support-for-proposed-legislation-on-abortion-1.1426365

I think the anti abortion lobby group are getting desperate as it is becoming clearer and clearer they are in the minority esp when it comes to cases of Risk to life, risk to health, rape and fetal fatal abnormalities.

doublefeck · 12-06-2013 08:59PM

lazygal wrote: »

I don't know where to post. Its a bit of a ranting and raving post but I can't put it there. I feel so, so, so belittled as a woman by the suggestion that a woman seeking abortion on grounds of suicide would face some sort of tribunal of inquiry. The fact it was even bandied about as a proposal at all annoys me. I'm pregnant right now and I feel like my husband and daughter will be put in a position where they might have to face life without me, because even if my health is in serious danger right now, unless I might die I won't receive treatment.

I know this is a rambling, incoherent mess of a post but I'm just so angry and upset and insulted by the current bandying about of the difficulties the state wants women to face in the abortion debate.

Lazygal,
Not only is your post not just an incoherent rant, but you've succinctly expressed what a large majority of women feel about this whole debate!
As per usual, when politicians in this country are faced with difficult moral or ethical decisions, the first thing they do is look to see what the Church's stance is on the matter and how their voting decision might affect their chances of re-election.
What really annoys me is the fact that the Church itself was very quick to jump in with their 'holier than thou' opinion on what should be a secular matter but were not so quick to deal with the horrendous child abuse amongst their own ranks!
I can completely understand where you're coming from and your fears that women almost appear secondary in the whole debate!
Doublefeck.

MaxWig · 13-06-2013 08:48AM

doublefeck wrote: »

Lazygal,
Not only is your post not just an incoherent rant, but you've succinctly expressed what a large majority of women feel about this whole debate!
As per usual, when politicians in this country are faced with difficult moral or ethical decisions, the first thing they do is look to see what the Church's stance is on the matter and how their voting decision might affect their chances of re-election.
What really annoys me is the fact that the Church itself was very quick to jump in with their 'holier than thou' opinion on what should be a secular matter but were not so quick to deal with the horrendous child abuse amongst their own ranks!
I can completely understand where you're coming from and your fears that women almost appear secondary in the whole debate!
Doublefeck.

I understand the contempt that women must have for the suggestion that patients/women might face a panel in order to deduce whether a woman is suicidal.

But I think the way it has been put forward is as to blame as anything.
The 'Tribunal of Inquiry' are simply a panel of doctors who would always be consulted before a patient was deemed suicidal.

Within this debate it has been painted as a kind of inquisition. However if you present to A&E and say you are suicidal, after initial triage, you will be referred to a Psychiatrist.

Pretty standard.

The alternative is self-diagnoses.

lazygal · 13-06-2013 09:08AM

MaxWig wrote: »

a Psychiatrist.

Pretty standard.

The alternative is self-diagnoses.

'A' psychiatrist. Not a panel? Why is it proposed that women need to see more than one?

MaxWig · 13-06-2013 09:23AM

lazygal wrote: »

'A' psychiatrist. Not a panel? Why is it proposed that women need to see more than one?

I think that's disingenuous - the gender of the patient is irrelevant I imagine.

The implication of the decision is the reason for the panel. Second opinions are not uncommon either.

lazygal · 13-06-2013 09:25AM

MaxWig wrote: »

I think that's disingenuous - the gender of the patient is irrelevant I imagine.

The implication of the decision is the reason for the panel. Second opinions are not uncommon either.

Only women can get pregnant, so gender is the entire basis of the current Bill which has just been published. No pregnant man who is suicidal will have to appear before more than one psychiatrist to explain himself, or have to appeal a decision to deny an abortion.

MaxWig · 13-06-2013 09:34AM

lazygal wrote: »

Only women can get pregnant, so gender is the entire basis of the current Bill which has just been published. No pregnant man who is suicidal will have to appear before more than one psychiatrist to explain himself, or have to appeal a decision to deny an abortion.

Understood and granted.

However, it is the implication of the decision that has instigated a requirement for second opinions.

Whether or not you deem the implication to require further consultation or not is another story .

If, as many believe, there is another 'life' at stake, the implication of the decision is significantly greater
If, as many believe, there is not another life at stake, the implication is not greater.
But therein lies the reasoning

rainbow kirby · 13-06-2013 10:01AM

lazygal wrote: »

No pregnant man who is suicidal will have to appear before more than one psychiatrist to explain himself, or have to appeal a decision to deny an abortion.

It's quite rare, but transgender males could face these situations.

lazygal · 13-06-2013 10:03AM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

It's quite rare, but transgender males could face these situations.

Is it not the case in Ireland that one can't change one's gender as recorded at birth? So legally such a person remains a female in law.

LittleBook · 13-06-2013 10:12AM

Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI Poll

Are you for or against the heads of the Bill to legislate for the Supreme Court X judgment of 1992 permitting abortion where a mother’s life is in danger?
Yes = 75%

Do you support the introduction of legislation to give effect to the X case decision, including the threat of suicide?
Yes = 71%

Should abortion be permitted:

- where a woman’s life is at risk - Yes = 89%
- where the foetus is not capable of surviving outside the womb - Yes = 83%
- in cases of rape or abuse - Yes = 81%
- where a woman’s health is at risk - Yes = 78%
- suicidal ideation - Yes = 52%
- where a woman deems it to be in her best interest - Yes = 39%

LittleBook wrote: »

Fine Gael haven't the cahones for this.

While I wouldn't go so far as to eat my words entirely, my attitude, at least to Enda Kenny, has softened ever so slightly.

Miriam Lord - Country Before Crozier for Catholic Kenny

“I am proud to stand here as a public representative, as a Taoiseach who happens to be a Catholic, but not a Catholic Taoiseach,” [Kenny] told the Dáil, invoking the shades of devout leaders past who pledged allegiance to faith first and country second.

Furthermore, a Taoiseach stood in the Dáil chamber and called out the despicable behaviour of a small section of Irish society that deems it acceptable to threaten and intimidate elected representatives who do not cleave to their world view.

“I am now being branded by personnel around the country as being a murderer; that I’m going to have on my soul the death of 20 million babies. I am getting medals, scapulars, plastic foetuses, letters written in blood, telephone calls all over the system, and it’s not confined to me . . . ”

...

A number of Fine Gael deputies who have expressed their reservations about the Bill looked on in dismay.

While I (and according to the poll, the majority of the general public) still think the current legislation is woefully inadequate and the threat of a 14-year jail term to a woman who doesn't toe the line is barbaric and shameful, I'm relieved to see the leader of my country is making some headway on this issue.

Da Shins Kelly · 13-06-2013 10:51AM

While I'm glad some progress is being made, it's not enough. This bill is only scratching the surface. First of all, it's a disgrace that fetal abnormalities and cases of incest and rape have not been included. Furthermore, the opinions of women barely matter, there is room for women to be called liars over the suicide issue, there's no explicit mention of mental health at all and the threat of up to 14 years in jail for not adhering to the rules. Women are still being treated as criminals and potential liars. Polls taken recently show that the majority quite clearly favour laws more far-reaching than this bill allows. Enda Kenny can go on about not being a Catholic Taoiseach all he likes, but saying it is one thing. It's entirely another to act upon it.

MaxWig · 13-06-2013 11:00AM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

...there is room for women to be called liars over the suicide issue,
...Women are still being treated as criminals and potential liars

This point is raised quite a bit, and I have to say I have no idea where it comes from.

Every system, every single one, has in-built safeguards against abuse. Why would pregnant women be any less prone abusing a system.

If you are pro-choice, I understand that you believes the need shouldn't arise.

But as it does arise, I think its a little silly to suggest that accounting for abuse is some kind of slight against 'women'.

Women are potential liars.
Women are potential criminals.
Men are potential liars.
Men are potential criminals etc etc

goose2005 · 13-06-2013 11:46AM

Truley wrote: »

I think just knowing they have options can be enough for most women, it gives women more confidence to go ahead with pregnancy and motherhood. I also think, ironically, that having abortion available in Ireland and removing the necessity to travel (and all the stress it incurs) could actually reduce the number of vulnerable women making rushed, panicked decisions to abort and ultimately regretting it.

It would also reduce the number of 2nd trimester abortions - after all, if they're so concerned about foetal pain and personhood, then surely they would want the abortion to occur as early as possible, before any kind of nervous system or consciousness has developed.

OldNotWIse · 13-06-2013 12:18PM

lazygal wrote: »

'A' psychiatrist. Not a panel? Why is it proposed that women need to see more than one?

I dont see the issue. In many instances people go before boards/panels, not just one person. A woman for whom an abortion is genuinely the right solution will have nothing to worry about...whether she goes before 1, 2 or 3 experts.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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