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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012
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desperate stuff yesterday. have said it all along bout scully, the man is clueless and the sooner hes gone the better, hes doing nothing for Waterford hurling.0
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@ML, nice write up and I would agree with a lot of what you said. I wouldnt though agree though with citing our forwards as a positive. Even if they all got scores from play I felt that throughout the game we were carrying at least 3 of the 6 forwards, Paudie was very poor throughout, Jamie Barron likewise and Ray Barry never got into the game after coming on early. Maurice showed what a threat he can be in the first half but faded badly in the second, perhaps struggling with an injury, but he was badly caught for pace and a lack of awareness late on in the game. Jake and Seamus both had good games
I dont want to be too critical cause like you said we are in a period of transition and have been hit with injuries, but I hope some good level of target practise can be arranged for the lads before the next game.
I'm not saying they all played really well or anything, I was more just trying to draw what positives we can from their performance. And that the two debutants have gotten off the mark is certainly a plus in my book. To me, Jamie Barron actually got on a decent amount of ball in the first half yesterday. His shot selection was poor, but I didn't think he was that bad. Didn't see it in the second half, but neither did Jake Dillon really. Neither have an aerial presence so if the half forward line is being killed then they won't be in the game. Paudi Mahony took a good score and played two great passes to Dillon in the first half but I agree he didn't pose much of a threat.
But I would like to highlight the fact that Dillon and Barron are both 19. When you look at the 4 u21s Clare had out, Shane O'Donnell was anonymous for practically the whole game (got a goal, took it well but really it should never have happened), Colm Galvin was outplayed for most of it, he got two great scores when the match was over but sure that doesn't tell you anything about a player. Seadna Morey was taken off, probably wasn't right to begin with given there was doubts about him starting. Tony Kelly was really the only one that stood out, Peter Duggan was cleaned by Nagle when he came on. So I think it would be a bit much to be too harsh and expectant of Dillon (most people are praising him in fairness) Barry and Barron. More is expected of Mahony for sure.
They have a lot to learn but I think the qualifiers might actually be a blessing in disguise in that sense. If they make a quarter final they'll have 5 games, compared to three last year (and 2010) and 4 in 2009 and 2011.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »I'm not saying they all played really well or anything, I was more just trying to draw what positives we can from their performance. And that the two debutants have gotten off the mark is certainly a plus in my book. To me, Jamie Barron actually got on a decent amount of ball in the first half yesterday. His shot selection was poor, but I didn't think he was that bad. Didn't see it in the second half, but neither did Jake Dillon really. Neither have an aerial presence so if the half forward line is being killed then they won't be in the game. Paudi Mahony took a good score and played two great passes to Dillon in the first half but I agree he didn't pose much of a threat.
But I would like to highlight the fact that Dillon and Barron are both 19. When you look at the 4 u21s Clare had out, Shane O'Donnell was anonymous for practically the whole game (got a goal, took it well but really it should never have happened), Colm Galvin was outplayed for most of it, he got two great scores when the match was over but sure that doesn't tell you anything about a player. Seadna Morey was taken off, probably wasn't right to begin with given there was doubts about him starting. Tony Kelly was really the only one that stood out, Peter Duggan was cleaned by Nagle when he came on. So I think it would be a bit much to be too harsh and expectant of Dillon (most people are praising him in fairness) Barry and Barron. More is expected of Mahony for sure.
They have a lot to learn but I think the qualifiers might actually be a blessing in disguise in that sense. If they make a quarter final they'll have 5 games, compared to three last year (and 2010) and 4 in 2009 and 2011.
Agree with all of the above, its just when 3 of the 6 are having a bit of a stinker it really puts too much pressure on the rest.
I'm not too downbeat after Sunday, its a big old rebuild, and hopefully a nice run through the qualifiers will follow, really hoping for a favourable preliminary round draw though, and definitely would prefer us to be playing than getting the bye, the sooner the team can get back out on the field the better imo0 -
Disappointing about Sunday but a few games in the qualifiers I don't think would do us any harm tbh. More games under the belts of Barron, Dillon, Fives, O'Halloran wouldn't be a bad thing.
I know the league is different but the games we played in it have showed there is plenty of fight in us and that there's a least one big game in us. We should be able to negociate the first round or two and get the confidence up, particularly the forwards who should be able to rack up a big score against the likes of Antrim, Carlow etc. After that, it'll probably be similar to 08, where the next game is a step up from the last (Antrim->Offaly->Wexford->Tipp->KK) so that helps build momentum assuming we win and get through.
Down but not out is the message really, the 1/4's should still definately be the target and it would be kinda disappointing not to get there tbh.
When is the draw for the qualifiers and who could we be playing? What could our path potentially be? I'm guessing something like Antrim-Wexford/Offaly-Limerick/Cork-1/4 final?0 -
Well its the qualifer route we have to take now after our loss yesterday and its a lot better than the straight knockout that we used to have up to '98. I wonder what kind of attendence will these games get as yesderday was one of the poorest crowd's I have seen for a long time. Money is tight with everybody and an awful lot choose to watch the game on television . At least we will get a few home games which I hope wont be priced to high because people will not come. It was a real culture shock to walk through the square before the game and see it so empty. We have had some great days following the games all aroud the country I would love to think they will return again.0
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ManFromCheese wrote: »desperate stuff yesterday. have said it all along bout scully, the man is clueless and the sooner hes gone the better, hes doing nothing for Waterford hurling.
jesus will ye stop with this sh1t,
after this year his contract is up,
so if the Co board want him gone or decides the matter himself.
until then stop b1tching about it0 -
deisefolife wrote: »jesus will ye stop with this sh1t,
after this year his contract is up,
so if the Co board want him gone or decides the matter himself.
until then stop b1tching about it
this is an open forum and I can express my opinion if I want to. by the way, I don't think intercounty mangers get contracts!!!!0 -
Well its the qualifer route we have to take now after our loss yesterday and its a lot better than the straight knockout that we used to have up to '98. I wonder what kind of attendence will these games get as yesderday was one of the poorest crowd's I have seen for a long time. Money is tight with everybody and an awful lot choose to watch the game on television . At least we will get a few home games which I hope wont be priced to high because people will not come. It was a real culture shock to walk through the square before the game and see it so empty. We have had some great days following the games all aroud the country I would love to think they will return again.
Been the same for the last few years now. Attendance was 2k lower in 2010. We drove into the square and parked at 3.15 yesterday. People don't have the disposable cash for it anymore. The sooner home/away arrangements come in for all games except Munster final the better0 -
Disappointing about Sunday but a few games in the qualifiers I don't think would do us any harm tbh. More games under the belts of Barron, Dillon, Fives, O'Halloran wouldn't be a bad thing.
I know the league is different but the games we played in it have showed there is plenty of fight in us and that there's a least one big game in us. We should be able to negociate the first round or two and get the confidence up, particularly the forwards who should be able to rack up a big score against the likes of Antrim, Carlow etc. After that, it'll probably be similar to 08, where the next game is a step up from the last (Antrim->Offaly->Wexford->Tipp->KK) so that helps build momentum assuming we win and get through.
Down but not out is the message really, the 1/4's should still definately be the target and it would be kinda disappointing not to get there tbh.
When is the draw for the qualifiers and who could we be playing? What could our path potentially be? I'm guessing something like Antrim-Wexford/Offaly-Limerick/Cork-1/4 final?
We could be playing any one of 6 Leinster teams in the qualifier prelim phase or we could get a bye. The opposition could be as 'weak' as London or as strong as Kilkenny. Unlikely to be the cats tbf but still an outside chance right now. Draw next Sunday0 -
The performance yesterday was on the cards for a long time. Different team from last year but unfortunately the same result. We can't expect to win games only scoring 1-15, that wouldn't be enough to win a football match these days.
One worrying thing about the team is the difference in size of our lads compared to players of the same age from tipp, cork & Clare. The tipp young lads are like monsters & mullane came out & said it last week he couldn't compete against the likes of pauric maher or jackie tyrell. Older & more experienced players will eat the likes of Barron & pauric Mahony alive. They're class hurlers but just aren't physical enough unfortunately. If Waterford play cork, tipp or kk then they will struggle to even score 1-15 that's a fact. Until the likes of Barron, Dillon & Mahony become physically bigger then Waterford haven't a chance of even competing in the championship. They are undoubtedly great talents & would have more skill than most forwards on show, the only problem is skill won't ey you through games like it did 10+ years ago. Look at mullane when he first came into the Waterford team. He weighed about 9 stone but with less relience on physicallity back then he got away with it & his game developed naturally. Like I said, he found himself unable to compete with the likes of tyrell & paidi maher. Mullane was never able to compete in the air as he wasn't physical enough, he learned to develop his game around this & used his pace to win ball.
I'd say write this year off now & start building for next year straight away, leave the lads that are there now play the rest of this summers games to get some experience & hopefully win a few games.0 -
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When's the draw for the preliminary rounds? Presumably after the Leinster QFs next weekend?
I also hope we get one of the weaker teams, rather than a bye. It would be good to steady the ship with a win under our belts0 -
Afar more worrying this was the way the intermediates /U21 side got dismantled by the intermediate/u21 side from clare, When the senior players from both side drop back into this code then clare will have the same amount returing as we will , and they spanked us Roll on the u-21's , Jesus.0
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Been the same for the last few years now. Attendance was 2k lower in 2010. We drove into the square and parked at 3.15 yesterday. People don't have the disposable cash for it anymore. The sooner home/away arrangements come in for all games except Munster final the better
Munster Council to look at things according to Liz Reddy on the 8-30am Sports News on WLR. No harm in that. Munster Council Chiefs, of which we have two in this county are still living in Celtic Tiger times. They may have good jobs or retired from good jobs and have a good pension (plus free tickets - I guess to games), but we are not all in that boat.0 -
When's the draw for the preliminary rounds? Presumably after the Leinster QFs next weekend?
I also hope we get one of the weaker teams, rather than a bye. It would be good to steady the ship with a win under our belts
Yep, It will be next Sunday, either after the KK/Offaly game or perhaps in the evening on The Sunday Game0 -
ManFromCheese wrote: »this is an open forum and I can express my opinion if I want to. by the way, I don't think intercounty mangers get contracts!!!!
jesus the whole country knows your opinion at this stage.0 -
ManFromCheese wrote: »desperate stuff yesterday. have said it all along bout scully, the man is clueless and the sooner hes gone the better, hes doing nothing for Waterford hurling.
I think you should look at the bigger picture.
This is a list of players that werent available for last Sunday, for one reason or another he has lost since he came in as manager.
Adrian Power - Opted out/travelling
Stephen Daniels - Injured
Shane Fives - Injured
Declan Prendergast - Retired
Eoin Madigan - Injured
Richie Foley - Injured
Wayne Hutchison - Opted out
Philip Mahony - Opted out/travelling
David O'Sullivan - Opted out/work commitments
Eoin McGrath - Retired
Eoin Kelly - Retired
Stephen Molumphy - Tour of duty
John Mullane - Retired
Shane Walsh - Injured
Thats the guts of a full team. I mean come on the hand hes been dealt since he came in as manager has been pretty s****e. We are a small county and strength in depth was tight enough as it was. to be fair he has never once used having a depleted squad as an excuse as a lot of managers do, as he wants to instill belief in the young lads.
I think he is being used by the county board as they know its a period of transition and were not going to win much the next couple of years anyway so they didnt see the point in forking out huge cash to bring in a big name manager. Its so easy to come here and just publicly slate the guy just because of a personal hunch without having much substance or reasoning behind your argument.
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Was shocking to see the boys got hammered by Clare last sunday, Fair play to Clare with their young team, the one to watch for All Ireland this year and this decade. Glad for Davy Fitz too, always remembered his wonderful work for us. Waterford will take that loss as a lesson learned, they have to pull up their socks to whoever they play next. I don't expect them in the quarter final this year, give the boss a chance to build the team for the next few years. Remember that Rome wasn't build in a day.0
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Horseboxhead wrote: »Afar more worrying this was the way the intermediates /U21 side got dismantled by the intermediate/u21 side from clare, When the senior players from both side drop back into this code then clare will have the same amount returing as we will , and they spanked us Roll on the u-21's , Jesus.
Steady on. I count 6 u21s (including the keeper) from the Clare starting intermediate team (compared to 13 for Waterford) though they did bring on more u21s off the bench, including Cathal O Connell who was prominent last year in the u21 game between the counties. Colin Dunford would have been in that Waterford team but he's gone for the summer with injury I think.
From the Senior team Clare started with 4 u21s, Tony Kelly, Colm Galvin, Seadna Morey and Shane O'Donnell. Peter Duggan came on, and Podge Collins was listed to start whether he did come on or not I can't remember. Conor Ryan, also listed to start for the Seniors, would appear to be overage for u21 this year. Don't have a programme on hand so I can't tell you who else was on the bench for them that is u21 this year. I know Aaron Cunningham was a good minor and scored in the u21 game last year, but he picked up a bad injury in the league game in February so not sure what the status is on him at the moment.
From our Senior team that started, we have Paudie Prender, Darragh Fives, Paudie Mahony, Jake Dillon and Jamie Barron (5) that started. Ray Barry and Gavin O Brien also came on.
Also, Donie Breathnach was playing for An Rinn at the weekend and I would consider him a good addition to the u21 team. Eoin Madigan probably won't be fit enough in time to get a start on that team.
Clare will be deserving favourites for that game but there's a good u21 team there in Waterford, I think Queally will have them ready and we also have home advantage. Bad form to be writing your own off at this stage.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »Steady on. I count 6 u21s (including the keeper) from the Clare starting intermediate team (compared to 13 for Waterford) though they did bring on more u21s off the bench, including Cathal O Connell who was prominent last year in the u21 game between the counties. Colin Dunford would have been in that Waterford team but he's gone for the summer with injury I think.
From the Senior team Clare started with 4 u21s, Tony Kelly, Colm Galvin, Seadna Morey and Shane O'Donnell. Peter Duggan came on, and Podge Collins was listed to start whether he did come on or not I can't remember. Conor Ryan, also listed to start for the Seniors, would appear to be overage for u21 this year. Don't have a programme on hand so I can't tell you who else was on the bench for them that is u21 this year. I know Aaron Cunningham was a good minor and scored in the u21 game last year, but he picked up a bad injury in the league game in February so not sure what the status is on him at the moment.
From our Senior team that started, we have Paudie Prender, Darragh Fives, Paudie Mahony, Jake Dillon and Jamie Barron (5) that started. Ray Barry and Gavin O Brien also came on.
Also, Donie Breathnach was playing for An Rinn at the weekend and I would consider him a good addition to the u21 team. Eoin Madigan probably won't be fit enough in time to get a start on that team.
Clare will be deserving favourites for that game but there's a good u21 team there in Waterford, I think Queally will have them ready and we also have home advantage. Bad form to be writing your own off at this stage.
Yes that was a very disheartening game to get hamered in but did anyone notice when the Clare team were leaving the field Queally had the lads doing a few paces down by the Killinan end of the field and was giving them a good talking too. I noticed this as a very good sign, lets hope so.0 -
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I think you should look at the bigger picture.
This is a list of players that werent available for last Sunday, for one reason or another he has lost since he came in as manager.
Adrian Power - Opted out/travelling
Stephen Daniels - Injured
Shane Fives - Injured
Declan Prendergast - Retired
Eoin Madigan - Injured
Richie Foley - Injured
Wayne Hutchison - Opted out
Philip Mahony - Opted out/travelling
David O'Sullivan - Opted out/work commitments
Eoin McGrath - Retired
Eoin Kelly - Retired
Stephen Molumphy - Tour of duty
John Mullane - Retired
Shane Walsh - Injured
Thats the guts of a full team. I mean come on the hand hes been dealt since he came in as manager has been pretty s****e. We are a small county and strength in depth was tight enough as it was. to be fair he has never once used having a depleted squad as an excuse as a lot of managers do, as he wants to instill belief in the young lads.
I think he is being used by the county board as they know its a period of transition and were not going to win much the next couple of years anyway so they didnt see the point in forking out huge cash to bring in a big name manager. Its so easy to come here and just publicly slate the guy just because of a personal hunch without having much substance or reasoning behind your argument.
I'm going to pull you up on one point there - in 2012 he must have mentioned a couple of dozen times that he was missing players through injury and being unavailable. He's definitely mentioned it this year a few times as well.
Overall, I think he's doing a reasonable job with the resources he has available. Some of the players you've mentioned above are long gone and would add little to the team though.
Depending on how the year continues from here, I think he deserves another year in the job after this one. The young players could benefit from some stability, and it's not as if there is a long list of talented alternatives waiting to replace him either.
Waterford have a big job ahead of them in order to rebuild, and supporters may have to simply accept that we mightn't see teams like the 00's again for some time. As long as we can maintain our current level competitiveness as a minimum, and not turn into an Offaly or Wexford, we're probably doing quite well.0 -
lets all get our rose tinted glasses off here and deal some straight shooting facts.
we were out hurled, out ran, out thought and more importantly and most worryingly OUTFOUGHT by clare sunday. wides is a load of rubbish if the game went on another 15 mins we would have been annihilated!
scully ryan has singled handedly caused one of the biggest exoduses from waterford hurling since prior to ww2. players and selectors alike wouldnt touch him with a barge pole he is totally inept and not up to a job of this magnitude. can someone please outline to me what his biggest hurling achievement was be it club or county? DLS doesnt count as he was nearly fired mid season (see when bgunner oblitered dls in walsh park) and finally ran out of there even when they won a munster club.
mullane & kelly should still be on the panel ala like of martin comerford and michael kavanagh in the latter years with kk. that comes down to man management this bs of a young team etc. the avr age of clare team was considerably lower then waterfords on sunday. the problem we had was when some of the younger lads werent doing it i.e. barron we had nothing to replace them with.
our hurling is gone back a ton too i have never seen our more prominent men like brick, moran, sullivan all being hooked so much skill levels have disimproved substantially also. it is obvious that the team has gone back loads on a reasonable league campaign anyone thinking we will win a game outside of laois, antrim, carlow and possibly wexford this season is dillusional.
scully and his mob need to be gotten out sooner rather then later for the betterment of waterford hurling its gone on long enough now this charade of progress. progress isnt about "bringing on the young lads" waterford did this in 1992 if u can all remember what happened then? progress is about winning games and conditioning and improving what you have.
we are back to the classic old waterford looking for excuses before we take to the field the man is incompetent and show me what justified this appointment on his cv please? bar the tag "cheap"0 -
thesaturdayman wrote: »can someone please outline to me what his biggest hurling achievement was be it club or county? DLS doesnt count as he was nearly fired mid season (see when bgunner oblitered dls in walsh park) and finally ran out of there even when they won a munster club.
After reading this twisted line of reasoning, I stopped reading.0 -
thesaturdayman wrote: »
we are back to the classic old waterford looking for excuses before we take to the field the man is incompetent and show me what justified this appointment on his cv please? bar the tag "cheap"
He has an All Ireland winning pedigree in several codes over 4 decades, no other Waterford man has as many All Ireland's as him, or likely ever will0 -
I'm going to pull you up on one point there - in 2012 he must have mentioned a couple of dozen times that he was missing players through injury and being unavailable. He's definitely mentioned it this year a few times as well.
Overall, I think he's doing a reasonable job with the resources he has available. Some of the players you've mentioned above are long gone and would add little to the team though.
Depending on how the year continues from here, I think he deserves another year in the job after this one. The young players could benefit from some stability, and it's not as if there is a long list of talented alternatives waiting to replace him either.
Waterford have a big job ahead of them in order to rebuild, and supporters may have to simply accept that we mightn't see teams like the 00's again for some time. As long as we can maintain our current level competitiveness as a minimum, and not turn into an Offaly or Wexford, we're probably doing quite well.
I mean as in making an excuse out of it. I know he has acknowldged that he has a depleted squad but to be fair I think he hasnt tried to make it as an excuse for losing games etc. he has given the lads there the respect that they deserve and has just got on with the job as best he can in a positive manner. The previous managers had an embarrassment of riches (and I include Davy Fitz in that) compared to what scully has at his disposal and a lot of people would do well to remember that.
But Im actually going to contradict myself and disagree that he should get another term, barring a massive turnaround in performances and a surprise run to an AI semi final or something. I think he has done a reasonable job since he came in, regaining 1A status has been a good achievement. I think given the limited resources he dosent really have much more to offer anyway.
But definetly needs to be cut some slack with regard to some of the ridiculous comments by posters above0 -
Michael Ryan has no option but to play a load of young lads because most of the senior forwards are gone. Its going to take time for it to come together at Senior level. Clare were well off the pace 2-3 years ago when all they had was young lads. Basically what happened in the noughties was a fluke, that an exceptional bunch or hurlers came through with no underage pedigree at all. Year on year we are seeing promising young forwards at underage and it will come good.
Certainly Michael Ryan isn't faultless but some of the criticism being levelled at him is just scapegoating0 -
Michael Ryan has no option but to play a load of young lads because most of the senior forwards are gone. Its going to take time for it to come together at Senior level. Clare were well off the pace 2-3 years ago when all they had was young lads. Basically what happened in the noughties was a fluke, that an exceptional bunch or hurlers came through with no underage pedigree at all. Year on year we are seeing promising young forwards at underage and it will come good.
Certainly Michael Ryan isn't faultless but some of the criticism being levelled at him is just scapegoating
The comparison with Clare is a fairly accurate one, although we have All Irelands at 21s, there's still some very talented young hurlers coming through in Waterford. It takes time for these lads to find their feet at the top level, the step up from U21 is huge.
I'd prefer to see a 20 yr old play than some one who'll be retired in a year or 2 if both players are of equal skill, speed etc.
Realistically it's whoever comes in after Michael Ryan that will reap the benefit of the blooding process.0 -
Can we not just leave Eoin Kelly out of this? Like he's retired, going well with Passage, I hate to have to seem like I'm being disrespectful towards him by being critical but if people (even though it's too much of a regular thing) decide to bring it up then what can you do?
It was clear last year to everyone (and obviously Eoin himself given his decision to retire) that he could no longer contribute on the field of play at inter-county level.
And really, your only fooling yourself if you think having him on the panel when he's not going to play would be a positive thing for Waterford or any other team.0 -
ladies football and......?
the gulf in ladies sports is quite clear and obvious ladies senior teams play club and weaker minor county teams in challenge games.... uncomparable imo0 -
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top scorer in waterford club champ last year and this so far afaik... still only 31-32 look i know there is a lot of issues in terms of baggage and attitude but that is down to management that is my point about ryan. he cant manage!!0
This discussion has been closed.
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