Who was the better outhalf?

Bogota · 14-05-2013 1:42pm

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Stats don't really even begin to tell the story of a player considering all the variables at work

Remember, Andy Powell and Ugo Monye were Lion's!

And yet, no one is arguing that the players that couldn't get ahead of them were the best in their position :rolleyes:

For two consecutive Lions tours, ROG in his prime couldn't get ahead of Jones. And couldn't get close to Wilkinson in 05. The fact that lesser players have been Lions doesn't change the fact that ROG never started a Lions test. If ROG truly was one of the greatest OH's then he would have been selected ahead of Jones and Wilkinson in 05 and 09 respectively. He wasn't. Two different coaches, on two different tours, didn't even have the faith to start him in a test.

Binge101 · 14-05-2013 1:44pm

corny wrote: »

Was that when McCalister ran through him?

Yup.

clsmooth · 14-05-2013 1:52pm

Contepomi was the best of them all. Then Wilkinson, Jones and ROG in that order.

Bogota · 14-05-2013 2:03pm

Ronan O'Gara

Buer wrote: »

I'd have Larkham ahead of Wilkinson as well as ROG and Jones. He was simply gifted and an absolute joy to watch. Just like Wilkinson, he led his side to a WC and another final. I don't think there has been a better passing/running outhalf in my lifetime and I include Carter in that. Carter gets the nod based on all round game though.

I assumed that it was a discussion of the great NH outhalfs over the last few years. Obviously both Larkham and Carter are ahead of all of them. For me it would be in this order:

1.Carter
2.Larkham
3.Wilkinson
4.Jones
5.ROG

trouttrout · 14-05-2013 2:09pm

Bogota wrote: »

I assumed that it was a discussion of the great NH outhalfs over the last few years. Obviously both Larkham and Carter are ahead of all of them. For me it would be in this order:

1.Carter
2.Larkham
3.Wilkinson
4.Jones
5.ROG

What games in particular do you think Larkham shined at 10?

I am pie · 14-05-2013 2:10pm

Ronan O'Gara

As diplomatically as possible, are there non Munster fans (or even non Irish!) who would put their hand up for ROG?

I would respectfully suggest that the 20% in the pro ROG camp are dominated by Munster fans?

Buer · 14-05-2013 2:15pm

trouttrout wrote: »

What games in particular do you think Larkham shined at 10?

Take any one of a glut of games from 1998-2001 when he was off the chart and Australia were winning the WC and the Tri Nations and Brumbies were winning the Super Rugby title. He was simply outstanding. The games between NZ and Australia during that time were classics.

Tim Robbins · 14-05-2013 2:55pm

Eoin wrote: »

I don't think ROG dodged tackles. He may have been swatted aside or needed an assist, but he made the effort.

His technique was terrible. I really don't know why.
Rob Kearney, Geordan Murphy and several other top class players are not great tacklers but ROG was awful. He is like watching a U 14 player playing their first game of rugby and could get seriously hurt. His body position is all wrong.

I'd love for someone more technical to elaborate here but it really is dreadful.

have a look at this clip

It is like he stops just before Shanklin hits him. Instead of lunging into Shanklin.

Another clip here

And a pretty irreverant look at the subject here

Tim Robbins · 14-05-2013 2:57pm

Buer wrote: »

The only level playing field we have is the Lions. They all had tours and there was one where all three of them went. ROG consistently did not deliver on them. He picked up bench caps in 2009 and 2005 when injuries forced it otherwise he wouldn't have had any. We can argue about international and club performances until the cows come home but when they were all in a straight shoot out, there was a very clear and defined pecking order.

ROG shun at Munster and was absolute class. He struggled to repeat this class consistently at higher levels. Ireland and Lions. This is because at lower levels it was easier to cover his bad tackling.

Same kinda of thing with Murphy at Leicester.

Bogota · 14-05-2013 3:02pm

Ronan O'Gara

Tim Robbins wrote: »

His technique was terrible. I really don't know why.
Rob Kearney, Geordan Murphy and several other top class players are not great tacklers but ROG was awful. He is like watching a U 14 player playing their first game of rugby and could get seriously hurt. His body position is all wrong.

I'd love for someone more technical to elaborate here but it really is dreadful.

have a look at this clip

It is like he stops just before Shanklin hits him. Instead of lunging into Shanklin.

And that, in a nutshell is the reason why ROG will never be considered one of the all time greats. He just gives up too many yards in the tackle and because of that teams suffer. I believe Fanning was making the point on The Right Hook about ROG costing Ireland a win over NZ on two occasions through missing tackles. He was responsible for leaking the try that cost the Lions the series. (yada yada concussion, when he tries the up and under moments after he seems to perfectly aware of what he's doing and its not like this was a once off). Every great has his weak points but O'Gara was such a liability in defense that at times his negatives outweighed his positives and cost games. I don't think you could say the same for Wilkinson, Jones, Larkham, Carter

trouttrout · 14-05-2013 3:03pm

Bogota wrote: »

And that, in a nutshell is the reason why ROG will never be considered one of the all time greats. He just gives up too many yards in the tackle and because of that teams suffer. I believe Fanning was making the point on The Right Hook about ROG costing Ireland a win over NZ on two occasions through missing tackles. He was responsible for leaking the try that cost the Lions the series. (yada yada concussion, when he tries the up and under moments after he seems to perfectly aware of what he's doing and its not like this was a once off).

It wasn't a try, and it wasn't the reason the Lions lost the series

Bogota · 14-05-2013 3:06pm

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

It wasn't a try, and it wasn't the reason the Lions lost the series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1B9-ha7TP0

18 seconds in (he actually misses two tackles in the build up to the try)

trouttrout · 14-05-2013 3:08pm

Bogota wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1B9-ha7TP0

18 seconds in (he actually misses two tackles in the build up to the try)

Bowe misses one two, would you say he cost the Lions the series? :rolleyes: No individual player cost the Lions that series

Again, the irony in you sharing a video entitled "Ronan O'Gara nightmare for the Lions" when you were here on your high horse a few days ago giving out about youtube videos highlighting players mistakes

Bogota · 14-05-2013 3:10pm

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Bowe misses one two, would you say he cost the Lions the series? :rolleyes:

Again, the irony in you sharing a video entitled "Ronan O'Gara nightmare for the Lions" when you were here on your high horse a few days ago giving out about youtube videos highlighting players mistakes

I didn't title the video, it's just a clip that disproves your point that he didn't miss a tackle that ended up being a try. (He actually missed two). I'm using video evidence to prove my points, you'd be accusing me of hyperbole otherwise. Just like the other day when I said ROG did not in fact have an excellent impact against Australia. You disagreed. I produced the video that showed his every touch of the ball and other than one touch finder he was extremely costly in possession continuously kicking away possession straight into the hands of Australian players and out on the full.

Grandpa Hassan · 14-05-2013 3:13pm

Ronan O'Gara

I am stronly in the JW camp as the best outhalf of the 3 by a country mile.

But to those blaming ROG for missing a tackle and contributing to losing the match, I would remind you of JW's insane floated pass that was intercepted for a try in the 2nd Lions test against the Aussies in 2001.

It changed the momentum of the game and you could argue that that one pass lost the lions the series.

Now, I dont subscribe to the fact that one moment decides a tour, but I just mention it as a counter to the last few posts about ROG's missed tackle

trouttrout · 14-05-2013 3:14pm

Bogota wrote: »

I didn't title the video, it's just a clip that disproves your point that he didn't miss a tackle that ended up being a try. (He actually missed two)

Haha, so you can moralise about those kind of videos being pathetic yet use them to try and back up your own points? Tad hypocritical don't you think?

I thought you were talking about the up and under in the second test , I didn't make any point about him not missing a tackle

Point is, he didn't cost the Lions the series. Nor did Ugo Monye for butchering tries, or Vickery for getting destroyed int he scrum. As with every game, it or in this case series, a loss cannot be put down to one incident

Bogota · 14-05-2013 3:20pm

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Haha, so you can moralise about those kind of videos being pathetic yet use them to try and back up your own points? Tad hypocritical don't you think?

The only one on a high horse is you. You continuously get personal in debates. I only come here to discuss rugby.

I don't think its hypocritical when you create a situation in which I'm forced to use such videos to prove my points. You regularly accuse other people's opinions as nonsense, hyperbole, lies etc. Unfortunately, I've no choice but to resort to videos that actually prove my points.

I thought you were talking about the up and under in the second test that cost them the draw, I didn't make any point about him not missing a tackle

Well that's your fault then. I wasn't.

Point is, he didn't cost the Lions the series. Nor did Ugo Monye for butchering tries, or Vickery for getting destroyed int he scrum. As with every game, it or in this case series, a loss cannot be put down to one incident

Point is Vickery's scrummaging is not on discussion. If you were calling Vickery the greatest scrummager of all time I would similarly argue about his performances for the Lions. We are discussing ROG, and the fact of the matter is his complete inability to tackle has been very costly over the years which is why he is light years behind the likes of Carter, Larkham, Jones and Wilkinson.

Grimebox · 14-05-2013 3:20pm

Ronan O'Gara

I really think picking individual events from a match doesn't prove a whole lot about a players entire career

Bogota · 14-05-2013 3:22pm

Ronan O'Gara

Grimebox wrote: »

I really think picking individual events from a match doesn't prove a whole lot about a players entire career

Ah come on, you think ROG's inability to tackle is a one off incident?

He's known for being an awful tackler and the same cannot be said for Wilkinson or Jones. ROG's defense has been costly throughout his career. It's a huge weakness in his game that is far greater than any weaknesses that Wilkinson or Jones have.

trouttrout · 14-05-2013 3:22pm

Bogota wrote: »

The only one on a high horse is you. You continuously get personal in debates. I only come here to discuss rugby.

I don't think its hypocritical when you create a situation in which I'm forced to use such videos to prove my points. You regularly accuse other people's opinions as nonsense, hyperbole, lies etc. Unfortunately, I've no choice but to resort to videos that actually prove my points.

This is hilarious, you know it's hypocritical so I don't see how insulting me is going to get you out of that hole :rolleyes:

You came on here saying those kinds of videos are pathetic and have used two of them to back try and back up your arguments since. If you can't see the irony in that well there's not much else I can say to you

Point is Vickery's scrummaging is not on discussion. If you were calling Vickery the greatest scrummager of all time I would similarly argue about his performances for the Lions. We are discussing ROG, and the fact of the matter is his complete inability to tackle has been very costly over the years which is why he is light years behind the likes of Carter, Larkham, Jones and Wilkinson.

Not that's not the point. You're the one that made the point that ROG lost the Lions the series, which is nonsense that you can't back up.

I'm not discussing his defense, merely pointing out that you can't pin an entire series loss on one headless kick and a missed tackle

I am pie · 14-05-2013 3:23pm

Ronan O'Gara

Grimebox wrote: »

I really think picking individual events from a match doesn't prove a whole lot about a players entire career

However a series of a events does. There is surely no doubt here that O´Gara was a poor to average tackler?

Poll is pretty conclusive for me. The only interesting question is whether O´Gara should be considered better than Jones. Wilkinson operated on a different level.

trouttrout · 14-05-2013 3:25pm

Of course ROG was a poor defender. I don't see how anyone can deny that

Bogota · 14-05-2013 3:46pm

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

This is hilarious, you know it's hypocritical so I don't see how insulting me is going to get you out of that hole :rolleyes:

You came on here saying those kinds of videos are pathetic and have used two of them to back try and back up your arguments since. If you can't see the irony in that well there's not much else I can say to you

Not that's not the point. You're the one that made the point that ROG lost the Lions the series, which is nonsense that you can't back up.

I'm not discussing his defense, merely pointing out that you can't pin an entire series loss on one headless kick and a missed tackle

I'm not going to get into this tit-for-tat style of arguing with you. You seem completely unable to engage in an argument without calling the opinions of other posters 'hilarious' or 'nonsense' and making condescending claims like "if you can't see the irony in that there's not much else I can say to you'

ROG's missed tackle(s) led to the decisive try that swung a match that was in the balance. Add to that his calamity of an up and under and its not difficult to see why many attribute the loss of the second test to the defensive mistakes of ROG. He is the main culprit for the Lions test defeat. His mistakes cost the Lions 10points at a time when the game was in the balance.

You can get your last word in, lord knows you won't stop until you do or the mod closes the thread.

Hagz · 14-05-2013 3:48pm

I don't think it's hypocritical at all of him to use that video as a reference point. I think that the video is childish. The fact that somebody made a video completely devoted to mistakes made by one player is sad. But I would still use it as a source. Why not?

trouttrout · 14-05-2013 3:50pm

Bogota wrote: »

I'm not going to get into this tit-for-tat style of arguing with you. You seem completely unable to engage in an argument without calling the opinions of other posters 'hilarious' or 'nonsense' and making condescending claims like "if you can't see the irony in that there's not much else I can say to you'

Well if you can't handle backing up your claims then hit the ignore button. This is a discussion forum

ROG's missed tackle(s) led to the decisive try that swung a match that was in the balance. Add to that his calamity of an up and under and its not difficult to see why many attribute the loss of the second test to the defensive mistakes of ROG. He is the main culprit for the Lions test defeat. His mistakes cost the Lions 10points at a time when the game was in the balance.

ROG made mistakes on the last tour. The up and under being the biggest (he didn't cost the Lions that try, he missed a tackle in the run up to it but so did three or four players, including Bowe) and most costly. He certainly played a part in the losing of the series but it wasn't any bigger a part than Vickery or Monye played

Saying he lost the series singlehandedly is completely unfair.

Depp · 14-05-2013 3:53pm

Stephen Jones

dan carter

Bogota · 14-05-2013 3:56pm

Ronan O'Gara

Depp wrote: »

dan carter

Don't think anyone disagrees there.

monkeybutter · 14-05-2013 4:11pm

Bogota wrote: »

Don't think anyone disagrees there.

Carters is too injury prone and cant hack it when under pressure.

Went missing at the last 2 world cups, one in which they were beaten by France and one that the ref was too scared to let them be beaten by France.

both in which he hobbled off when the going got tough

He looked mediocre at USAP and of course he got injured.

he gets an armchair ride with NZ which makes him look better than he is

if he togged out for Ireland hed be in for some shock.

Dont get me wrong he's good, but no better than the others on the list and worse under real pressure.

Wilkson and ROG can hack it, and in fairness to Jones, his kick for the Grand Slam was a great one, just outside his range, he didnt choke one bit

sydthebeat · 14-05-2013 4:13pm

Stephen Jones

monkeybutter wrote: »

Carters is too injury prone and cant hack it when under pressure.

Went missing at the last 2 world cups, one in which they were beaten by France and one that the ref was too scared to let them be beaten by France.

both in which he hobbled off when the going got tough

He looked mediocre at USAP and of course he got injured.

he gets an armchair ride with NZ which makes him look better than he is

if he togged out for Ireland hed be in for some shock.

Dont get me wrong he's good, but no better than the others on the list and worse under real pressure.

:eek::eek::eek:

;);)

i wont even bother.... this is obvious attention seeking

Binge101 · 14-05-2013 4:31pm

No one outside of Ireland respects ROG.

Grandpa Hassan · 14-05-2013 4:36pm

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek: ;);)

i wont even bother.... this is obvious attention seeking

He is the greatest of the list, I agree, but I'm not sure that you can argue that he didn't go missing at the pointy end of the world cups.

Hagz · 14-05-2013 4:38pm

Yeh. Especially in 2011. He was totally anonymous towards the end. You'd swear he wasn't even on the pitch.

I am pie · 14-05-2013 4:41pm

Ronan O'Gara

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

He is the greatest of the list, I agree, but I'm not sure that you can argue that he didn't go missing at the pointy end of the world cups.

Missing through injury in 2011. Hardly his fault.

sydthebeat · 14-05-2013 4:45pm

Stephen Jones

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

He is the greatest of the list, I agree, but I'm not sure that you can argue that he didn't go missing at the pointy end of the world cups.

go missing????

im sure i saw him in the stands on crutches.....

Chabals Beard · 14-05-2013 4:59pm

Stephen Jones

Everyone here is pointing at the Lions, but how about looking at the 2011 WC.. Wilko and Jones were absolutely dreadful in that tournament, not saying ROG was super but he was still battling with Sexton for that 10 Jersey, and had a couple of good performances,while Wilko and Jones did nothing.. not debating the fact that Wilko was probably the best are his peak but people seem to focus purely on ROG mistakes, like Jones and Wilko were immune to them.

Bogota · 14-05-2013 5:04pm

Ronan O'Gara

Chabals Beard wrote: »

Everyone here is pointing at the Lions, but how about looking at the 2011 WC.. Wilko and Jones were absolutely dreadful in that tournament, not saying ROG was super but he was still battling with Sexton for that 10 Jersey, and had a couple of good performances,while Wilko and Jones did nothing.. not debating the fact that Wilko was probably the best are his peak but people seem to focus purely on ROG mistakes, like Jones and Wilko were immune to them.

Can you point out a game against top opposition where ROG was good?

He came on against Australia and was brutal and was similarly awful against Wales!!

monkeybutter · 14-05-2013 5:06pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek: ;);)

i wont even bother.... this is obvious attention seeking

it's all true though

He's not even the most handsome man in world rugby since the Kearney brothers came along

monkeybutter · 14-05-2013 5:12pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

go missing????

im sure i saw him in the stands on crutches.....

egggsactly, they won it without him, they even won it without their second choice fly half and their scrum half taking the kicks

Well the ref was on their side, but ignoring that

he gets an armchair ride with NZ, this makes him look brilliant when he is just as good as the others

The fact remains he was missing, he hobbled off in 2007 as well when the going got tough.

You have to be objective here, and look at the fly halfs performance limited by the teams they were playing in. Wilkinson looked the best in the world playing for the then best team in the world. As does carter.

Chabals Beard · 14-05-2013 5:14pm

Stephen Jones

Bogota wrote: »

Can you point out a game against top opposition where ROG was good?

He came on against Australia and was brutal and was similarly awful against Wales!!

Played well vs Italy and nailed his kicks cs Australia... again not saying he was super but he was certainly better than the other 2

Depp · 14-05-2013 5:18pm

Stephen Jones

monkeybutter wrote: »

Carters is too injury prone and cant hack it when under pressure.

Went missing at the last 2 world cups, one in which they were beaten by France and one that the ref was too scared to let them be beaten by France.

both in which he hobbled off when the going got tough

He looked mediocre at USAP and of course he got injured.

he gets an armchair ride with NZ which makes him look better than he is

if he togged out for Ireland hed be in for some shock.

Dont get me wrong he's good, but no better than the others on the list and worse under real pressure.

Wilkson and ROG can hack it, and in fairness to Jones, his kick for the Grand Slam was a great one, just outside his range, he didnt choke one bit

some correct points there admittedly, has had troubles with injury, but when hes fit and at his best you cant play with him, incredible talent

schools rugby · 14-05-2013 5:22pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

You have to be objective here, and look at the fly halfs performance limited by the teams they were playing in. Wilkinson looked the best in the world playing for the then best team in the world. As does carter.

Who would you say has been the best flyhalf over the last 10 years then ?

Depp · 14-05-2013 5:22pm

Stephen Jones

Id have to say the best on the go, purely for how exciting he can be, would have to be cooper, absolutely ridiculous player, another who on his day theres no stopping him

schools rugby · 14-05-2013 5:29pm

Depp wrote: »

Id have to say the best on the go, purely for how exciting he can be, would have to be cooper, absolutely ridiculous player, another who on his day theres no stopping him

As much as i love Cooper , he is makes too many errors in a game to be considered the best - you only have to watch a Reds match in Super Rugby. However he has toughened up this year I have noticed

Depp · 14-05-2013 5:32pm

Stephen Jones

I know hes far from the finished article but i love to watch him, anything could happen when he gets ball in hand, his attitude has seemed much better this season in fairness

Buer · 14-05-2013 6:36pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

The fact remains he was missing, he hobbled off in 2007 as well when the going got tough.

You have to be objective here.

Ironic.

Carter was injured in 2007 going into the game. He missed the last pool game, couldn't train the week leading up to the game but was so considered so important he played injured.

Buer · 14-05-2013 6:50pm

Just for the sake of my own personal preference, I'm going to leave this here for anyone not old enough to remember him in his pomp. Never has an outhalf made attacking rugby look so effortless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WREmrQ6WC-Q

Tim Robbins · 14-05-2013 6:59pm

Bogota wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1B9-ha7TP0

18 seconds in (he actually misses two tackles in the build up to the try)

He runs up the ball carrier, bends and then stops. Awful technique. I just can't understand why.

Like I am sure he would kick the utter sh*t out of and cream most of us posters here. Just wondering why his tackling is so bad.

Here is a video dan lydiate making some tacklings. Contrast the technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i2G1akkz-E

He makes sure when contact happens he is going forward.

astonaidan · 14-05-2013 10:52pm

Stephen Jones

I love the way we all rate ROG on just a few moments eg. Lions tour but seem to forget all the magic he does.
Utter ridiculous, some people really are idiots:mad:

artvandelay48 · 15-05-2013 8:31am

Ronan O'Gara

Buer wrote: »

Just for the sake of my own personal preference, I'm going to leave this here for anyone not old enough to remember him in his pomp. Never has an outhalf made attacking rugby look so effortless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WREmrQ6WC-Q

He was an awesome 10. The thing i loved about him is that he doesn't seem quick but one minute he has the ball in front of a defender, the next he's past him in the clear. Gregor Townsend had that ability as well and I think Sexton has a little of it as well.

.ak · 15-05-2013 9:56am

Ronan O'Gara

Who was the right wing for Australia in that match in 98?

Who was the better outhalf?

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