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Who was the better outhalf?

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    #122
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Ronan O'Gara
    Buer wrote: »
    Jones also had balls of steel when required under pressure. People often say that ROG was the main man in this regard but SJ was well able to deliver also. That penalty in the 76th minute of the second test in 2009 was possibly as high a pressure penalty as has been kicked in international rugby in the past decade. Flatley and Donald can lay claim to that also but their kicks were probably easier if memory serves me right.

    Only watched it the other day. Such a tricky kick. Even though I knew how it ended up I got butterflies watching that kick! Probably a good example of how to measure the 'steel' between outhalves. Even when trailing SJ kept it together, where as the less said about ROG's last few moments the better.


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    #123
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,766 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Ronan O'Gara
    .ak wrote: »
    Only watched it the other day. Such a tricky kick. Even though I knew how it ended up I got butterflies watching that kick! Probably a good example of how to measure the 'steel' between outhalves. Even when trailing SJ kept it together, where as the less said about ROG's last few moments the better.

    To be fair to ROG was he not concussed for most the last few minutes? I seem to remember he got whacked on the head but got up and played on.


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    #124
    Eoin
    Registered Users Posts: 21,244 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Ronan O'Gara
    hardCopy wrote: »
    I love Wilkinson as a player but maybe he should have minded his body a bit more and avoided some of those big hits. It can't be a coincidence that ROG with his famous aversion to tackling managed to have a long and pretty much injury free career.

    I don't think ROG dodged tackles. He may have been swatted aside or needed an assist, but he made the effort.


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    #125
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Wilkinson kicked a World Cup-winning drop goal before O'Gara became first choice for Ireland. He's in a Heineken Cup final and expected to tour as a Lion when O'Gara is widely expected to retire. In the middle, there were vast numbers of injuries and a national side in turmoil, and Wilkinson still collected a losing finalist's medal in 2007. O'Gara had a great HC career and a pretty good international one, while Wilkinson had an utterly stellar international career and may yet collect a HC medal. It's not a realistic comparison.


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    #126
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,253 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Stephen Jones
    wilkinson has scored 731 european cup points to date. 4 tries

    O Gara has scored 1384 european cup points to date. 8 tries


    while johnny has obviously had the glittering international career, ROG is stand alone at eurpean club level.

    Theres not as much between them as the last few pages would suggest.

    You dont get 2 heineken cup winners medals by being wet paper.


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    #127
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Question: Would any Leinster fans like to see Wilkinson as their starting ten? (aimed at Leinster in particular because of the brand of rugby they play)


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    #128
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    Eoin wrote: »
    I don't think ROG dodged tackles. He may have been swatted aside or needed an assist, but he made the effort.

    This is a common notion but IMO it's a token effort he makes, he doesnt exactly run out of the way of ball carriers but he neither does he make a genuine effort to bring them down.


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    #129
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    wilkinson has scored 731 european cup points to date. 4 tries

    O Gara has scored 1384 european cup points to date. 8 tries


    while johnny has obviously had the glittering international career, ROG is stand alone at eurpean club level.

    Theres not as much between them as the last few pages would suggest.

    You dont get 2 heineken cup winners medals by being wet paper.

    That's a meaningless comparison without some sort of look at how many HC games each played. Not to mention the fact that a World Cup winner's medal trumps HC titles; Wilkinson is the only 10 from the northern hemisphere to have won a world cup final.


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    #130
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Ronan O'Gara
    Eoin wrote: »
    I don't think ROG dodged tackles. He may have been swatted aside or needed an assist, but he made the effort.

    He did two fairly good impressions of it this year against Cardiff and last year against Ospreys, but in general I'd agree.


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    #131
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    trouttrout wrote: »
    Question: Would any Leinster fans like to see Wilkinson as their starting ten? (aimed at Leinster in particular because of the brand of rugby they play)

    No, because he'd be a square peg in a round hole.


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    #132
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    desertcircus wrote: »
    That's a meaningless comparison without some sort of look at how many HC games each played. Not to mention the fact that a World Cup winner's medal trumps HC titles; Wilkinson is the only 10 from the northern hemisphere to have won a world cup final.

    If that's a meaningless comparison I don't know what you were hoping to gain by comparing their world cup records considering how strong England were in 03 in comparison to Ireland


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    #133
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,253 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Stephen Jones
    trouttrout wrote: »
    Question: Would any Leinster fans like to see Wilkinson as their starting ten? (aimed at Leinster in particular because of the brand of rugby they play)

    of the three named, yes definitely.
    I think its a bit of a miss conception that hes limited in moving a back line, look who he has playing outside him at toulon !!


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    #134
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    desertcircus wrote: »
    No, because he'd be a square peg in a round hole.

    Exactly, and he'd be a square peg in the vast majority of top sides these days too


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    #135
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    of the three named, yes definitely.
    I think its a bit of a miss conception that hes limited in moving a back line, look who he has playing outside him at toulon !!

    I don't think it is a misconception, he simply isn't great at it

    Sits very deep and isn't a fantastic distributor

    ROG in his prime would be much more suited to a team looking to play attractive running rugby


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    #136
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Ronan O'Gara
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    wilkinson has scored 731 european cup points to date. 4 tries

    O Gara has scored 1384 european cup points to date. 8 tries


    while johnny has obviously had the glittering international career, ROG is stand alone at eurpean club level.

    Theres not as much between them as the last few pages would suggest.

    You dont get 2 heineken cup winners medals by being wet paper.

    I can't believe anyone is even raising this as a consideration!

    It's just not an issue, Wilko spent 12 years at a struggling Newcastle, meanwhile ROG was generally behind on of the best packs in Europe!

    It's got very little indication of the merits of the two players, other than it obviously pointing to the fact that ROG was indeed a class player, which nobody is disputing.

    It's certainly not an indication of there being 'not much between them' as players!


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    #137
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,253 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Stephen Jones
    desertcircus wrote: »
    That's a meaningless comparison without some sort of look at how many HC games each played. Not to mention the fact that a World Cup winner's medal trumps HC titles; Wilkinson is the only 10 from the northern hemisphere to have won a world cup final.

    dont know why its meaningless, its arguable that a more consistent annual heineken cup is a better reflection of a player than an intermittent 4 year competition.

    lets not forget that Stuart Abbot has a world cup winners medal too


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    #138
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,253 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Stephen Jones
    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    I can't believe anyone is even raising this as a consideration!

    It's just not an issue, Wilko spent 12 years at a struggling Newcastle, meanwhile ROG was generally behind on of the best packs in Europe!

    It's got very little indication of the merits of the two players, other than it obviously pointing to the fact that ROG was indeed a class player, which nobody is disputing.

    It's certainly not an indication of there being 'not much between them' as players!

    if your going to quote me, will you please quote what i actually said!!!


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    #139
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Stats don't really even begin to tell the story of a player considering all the variables at work

    Remember, Andy Powell and Ugo Monye were Lion's!


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    #140
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Ronan O'Gara
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    dont know why its meaningless, its arguable that a more consistent annual heineken cup is a better reflection of a player than an intermittent 4 year competition.

    lets not forget that Stuart Abbot has a world cup winners medal too
    Well it is (meaningless) if your club was hardly ever in the HEC.


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    #141
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Ronan O'Gara
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    if your going to quote me, will you please quote what i actually said!!!

    That's grand, but the rest of the post is still salient, there's little if any point in comparing their points scoring record (not even their average points scoring record!) in a tournament where one was playing with a top club side, and one with friggin Newcastle for the vast majority, along with being injured!

    Actually, Wilko has a better average ppg than ROG. So QED then?! Come off it!


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    #142
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Ronan O'Gara
    What are their respective averages?


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    #143
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,253 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Stephen Jones
    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    That's grand, but the rest of the post is still salient, there's little if any point in comparing their points scoring record (not even their average points scoring record!) in a tournament where one was playing with a top club side, and one with friggin Newcastle for the vast majority, along with being injured!

    Actually, Wilko has a better average ppg than ROG. So QED then?! Come off it!

    nope, its about consistency.
    Unless johnny wins a HC this year with toulon, ROG will be the undoubted best 10 in most peoples heineken cup legends team.

    At no time have i argued that ROG is better than Johnny, i voted for johnny in the poll, but as to who was the better 10, i will argue that its a lot closer than the last few pages have been suggesting. Reading some of the posts here you'd think ROG was powder puff whereas wilko was a hulk. The truth as always lies somewhere between.


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    #144
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,253 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Stephen Jones
    Grimebox wrote: »
    What are their respective averages?

    johnny 731 from 51 games (6 as substitute) 14.33 avg

    ROG 1384 from 111 games ( 1 as substitute) 12.47 avg

    thats total European scores.
    johnny has 485 out of the 731 in the second tier competition (challange cup)


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    #145
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    Ronan O'Gara
    The biggest thing against ROG there is the 0 points for the Lions, 3 consecutive tours and nothing to show for it except a brainfart in the 2nd test in 2009.

    The order listed is correct for me.


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    #146
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    The only level playing field we have is the Lions. They all had tours and there was one where all three of them went. ROG consistently did not deliver on them. He picked up bench caps in 2009 and 2005 when injuries forced it otherwise he wouldn't have had any. We can argue about international and club performances until the cows come home but when they were all in a straight shoot out, there was a very clear and defined pecking order.


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    #147
    artvandelay48
    Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭artvandelay48


    Ronan O'Gara
    trouttrout wrote: »
    I don't think it is a misconception, he simply isn't great at it

    Sits very deep and isn't a fantastic distributor

    ROG in his prime would be much more suited to a team looking to play attractive running rugby

    The bigger misconception is that ROG is good a getting a backline moving. We didn't win the slam playing attractive running rugby.


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    #148
    Binge101
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Binge101


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    Carter in a league of his own, better than all three.

    Wilko - ROG - Jones after that for me.

    Think Larkham deserves a mention in this area for me. Completely different player but had some serious moments too.

    Larkham deserves more than a mention.
    Twice the player ROG and Jones ever were.

    Wilkinson was way ahead of Jones and ROG at his peak.

    Jones is simply a better player than ROG as evidenced by Lions Tours.


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    #149
    Binge101
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Binge101


    Sundy wrote: »
    I cant think right now of a game where a missed tackle from him cost a win.
    .

    Lions second test 09.
    New Zealand 06.


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    #150
    corny
    Registered Users Posts: 7,782 ✭✭✭corny


    Ronan O'Gara
    Binge101 wrote: »
    Lions second test 09.
    New Zealand 06.

    Was that when McCalister ran through him?


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    #151
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Binge101 wrote: »
    Larkham deserves more than a mention.

    I'd have Larkham ahead of Wilkinson as well as ROG and Jones. He was simply gifted and an absolute joy to watch. Just like Wilkinson, he led his side to a WC and another final. I don't think there has been a better passing/running outhalf in my lifetime and I include Carter in that. Carter gets the nod based on all round game though.


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