Who was the better outhalf?

Ruck Inspector

Johnny Wilkinson

• 91 caps
• 1246 international points
• 7 tries
• 1 World Cup
• 1 Grand Slam
• 6 Lions Caps
• 67 Lions Points

Ronan O'Gara

• 128 caps
• 1083 international points
• 16 tries
• 2 Heinken Cups
• 1 Grand Slam
• 2 Lions Caps
• 0 Lions Points

Stephen Jones

• 104 caps
• 917 international points
• 7 tries
• 2 Grand Slams
• 6 Lions Caps
• 53 Lions Points

sweetie

Ronan O'Gara

the order you put it in is about right

.ak

Ronan O'Gara

Wilko for me.

Fireball07

Stephen Jones

How can I not say ROG? Fantastic player.

SkadooshJ

Johnny Wilkinson by a long distance.

trouttrout

In their prime I'd have ROG every day of the week.

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

All 3 predominately "kicking" 10's..... so from that basis id have ROG first for his ability to 'general' a game.
Jonny was metronomic and cool as ice, and benefited from a beast of a pack in front.
Jones, while not at the level as the other two, still deserves to be included in the debate.

Buer

Can I open a can of worms and say all of them were overrated in ways?!

As an all round player, Stephen Jones was probably the best at his peak, for me. The other two were much better at very specific elements of the game though and, in the right teams, were far more effective due to the packs they played behind. A bloke who played in parallel with them and was far better than any of them was Larkham, I reckon.

.ak

Ronan O'Gara

I think Wilko has been subject to overhype, but he deserved every last drop of it in the early 00's.

darragh_haven

I can see this thread going to hell in a handcart. .....
In the op's order of listing in my opinion away

thomond2006

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson's stats would be a lot more impressive if he didn't lose so many years of international rugby because of injury.

vienne86

Ronan O'Gara

All very good, and as pointed out earlier, all kicking outhalves. I would put Johnny first, then ROG, then Jones.....and Johnny is still going well for Toulon.

beertons

Was and is Wilko for me.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

I think Wilko has been subject to overhype, but he deserved every last drop of it in the early 00's.

I think he was actually much better in the 2001-03 6N than he ever was in the 2003 WC where the pressure and attention pushed him close to breaking point. If you look back specifically at his performances during that tournament, he actually wasn't that good. Looked to have the weight of the world on his shoulders. A combination of Freddie Michalak, his pack and Mike Catt bailed him out a few times that tournament.

EDIT: Just looking back on the actual stats from the knock outs in that tournament, Australia were 4/7 kicks in the final, France 1/5 in the semi and Wales were 1/5. Just goes to show how important nailing your kicks is at that level.

BQQ

Stephen Jones

Bit of a surprise that ROG scored so many more tries than the other two.

Wilkinson benefitted from a dominant pack and his kicking from hand never matched his excellent goalkicking.

Rog for me.

corny

Ronan O'Gara

1. Wilkinson: Easily the best before 2004. Ferocious in the tackle, brilliant kicker and not as a bad a playmaker as some made out.
2. Jones: Super pass and all round good player. Always ahead of ROG when it came to the Lions.
3. ROG: Great kicker and great man under pressure but last because of his obvious weakness in the tackle. Never really threatened the gain line either, especially earlier in his career.

Fireball07

Stephen Jones

corny wrote: »

1. Wilkinson: Easily the best before 2004. Ferocious in the tackle, brilliant kicker and not as a bad a playmaker as some made out.
2. Jones: Super pass and all round good player. Always ahead of ROG when it came to the Lions.
3. ROG: Great kicker and great man under pressure but last because of his obvious weakness in the tackle. Never really threatened the gain line either, especially earlier in his career.

Still scored twice as many tries as the others.

Ruck Inspector

Ronan O'Gara

Fireball07 wrote: »

Still scored twice as many tries as the others.

Not exactly an indicator of his ability to threaten the line.

trouttrout

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

Not exactly an indicator of his ability to threaten the line.

It is really

4 or 5 years ago ROG was an integral cog in the attractive back-play we managed under EOS

His play over the last year or so seems to have fogged peoples memories because he was very capable with the ball in his hand

corny

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

It is really

4 or 5 years ago ROG was an integral cog in the attractive back-play we managed under EOS

His play over the last year or so seems to have fogged peoples memories because he was very capable with the ball in his hand

Capable passer yes.

Man for threatening a line break? Absolutely not. Very often turned over when he took the ball into contact.

Fireball07

Stephen Jones

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

Not exactly an indicator of his ability to threaten the line.

If he was as weak at it as some people make it, there's no way he'd score that many tries. Truth is, ROG was not terrible in that area. He was able to take the ball on, and make linebreaks...and did so quite regularly.

He was no Carter or Larkham in that area but he wasn't terrible. And he had a fantastic pass. When EOS was in charge, ROG was integral in getting the best out of a very talented backline.

trouttrout

corny wrote: »

Capable passer yes.

Man for threatening a line break? Absolutely not. Very often turned over when he took the ball into contact.

What do you mean by turned over?

Ruck Inspector

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

It is really

no it is not.

all you have to do is watch his international tries very few came from him breaking the line after taking the ball as first receiver.

So to say because he scored x amount of tries therefore he was ability to threaten the line was very good would not be true.

jamiedav2011

Ronan O'Gara

Carter in a league of his own, better than all three.

Wilko - ROG - Jones after that for me.

Think Larkham deserves a mention in this area for me. Completely different player but had some serious moments too.

trouttrout

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

no it is not.

Anything more substantial to add?

Swiwi

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson without a doubt. Struck fear into NZ rugby at his peak. For reasons I don't quite understand ROG was always underwhelming against the ABs. Stephen Jones was a reasonable goalkicker.

Swiwi

Ronan O'Gara

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Carter in a league of his own, better than all three.

Wilko - ROG - Jones after that for me.

Think Larkham deserves a mention in this area for me. Completely different player but had some serious moments too.

+1. Larkham converted from FB to 10, and he was a damn fine player.

bilston

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson at his best was better than either O'Gara or Jones. But it was all a bit fleeting.

However for longevity then I'd give it to ROG (albeit Wilkinson is playing better now, but then he is younger). Jones was (is? has he retired yet?) a good player too but just a bit behind the other day. I'd put Humphreys ahead of Jones as well.

bilston

Ronan O'Gara

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Think Larkham deserves a mention in this area for me. Completely different player but had some serious moments too.

Lucky he wasn't Irish since he couldn't kick.

trouttrout

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

no it is not.

all you have to do is watch his international tries very few came from him breaking the line after taking the ball as first receiver.

So to say because he scored x amount of tries therefore he was ability to threaten the line was very good would not be true.

But you don't need to be the first receiver to threaten the line

As Fireball said, the best we saw of ROG with ball in hand was during the days of EOS where he was an important part of a very talented backline, using his passing and very often linking up after an initial break to score a try

Ruck Inspector

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Anything more substantial to add?

check again

CIARAN_BOYLE

Ronan O'Gara

bilston wrote: »

Wilkinson at his best was better than either O'Gara or Jones.

However for longevity then I'd give it to ROG. Jones was (is? has he retired yet?) a good player too but just a bit behind the other day. I'd put Humphreys ahead of Jones as well.

Retiring at the end of this season. Presumably he is gone now unless he is involved in the Babas or something like that.

trouttrout

Wilkinson at his best was a fantastic place kicker, tactical kicker and defender. But take away the 8 monsters he was playing behind during his most successful stint and I don't think he'd have garnered half the hype

Now to a degree ROG also benefited from playing behind a strong pack but not to the same degree. In his hayday he was much better at getting a backline moving than Wilko, superb tactical and place kicker if he did lack in defense

bilston

Ronan O'Gara

thomond2006 wrote: »

Wilkinson's stats would be a lot more impressive if he didn't lose so many years of international rugby because of injury.

Can you imagine? He'd probably have reached 140/150 test caps and maybe 1,600+ test points.

Chabals Beard

Stephen Jones

It's ROG for me, over a whole career he was the best.. from 2004 to 2008 he was the best OH in the world, with Carter as a exception

Buer

I don't think he was a linebreaker at all nor would many, I would have thought. Think back to his tries. Samoa in 2010, Wales in 2007, France in 2007, South Africa 2004, Italy 2007, Scotland 2007. He had a habit of getting on the end of a scoring pass and was clever and spotting an opportunity when the opposition weren't awake. The Scotland try in 2011 is the only one I can remember when he broke the defensive line.

bilston

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Wilkinson at his best was a fantastic place kicker, tactical kicker and defender. But take away the 8 monsters he was playing behind during his most successful stint and I don't think he'd have garnered half the hype

Now to a degree ROG also benefited from playing behind a strong pack but not to the same degree. In his hayday he was much better at getting a backline moving than Wilko, superb tactical and place kicker if he did lack in defense

But you can't add the footnote that Wilkinson was playing behind a great pack and then say ROG was better at getting his backs moving and not add the footnote that ROG had BOD, Hickie and D'Arcy outside of him.

trouttrout

Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

shuffol

I think Wilkinson and ROG were evenly matched in a lot of ways, except defense where there's an enormous gulf and thats the deciding factor for me.

trouttrout

bilston wrote: »

But you can't add the footnote that Wilkinson was playing behind a great pack and then say ROG was better at getting his backs moving and not add the footnote that ROG had BOD, Hickie and D'Arcy outside of him.

But ROG was simply a much better distributor. I mean you only have to look at the criticism Johnson got for persisting with Wilikinson a few years ago when England had a decent backline that didn't really have a chance to showcase their skills with Wilkinson at 10

If ROG or Wilikinson in their prime were operating at 10 for Ireland I'd be very confident that ROG would get a lot more from that backline than Wilkinson

bilston

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

There mightn't be a massive gap at this very moment, but over their careers there is a chasm and that's not a criticism of Sexton who still has a bit to travel in his career but Carter at his peak was sublime. Just think back to the second Lions test in 2005. Unbelieveable performance.

Tox56

trouttrout wrote: »

Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

Carter is one of the best of all time in his position, maybe he hasn't been as sensational as he can be recently but I haven't seen a huge amount of him to know. In general though I think there's a big enough gap

Buer

Chabals Beard wrote: »

It's ROG for me, over a whole career he was the best.. from 2004 to 2008 he was the best OH in the world, with Carter as a exception

For a short spell, probably. But it was fleeting. There was a glut of them all jostling. Stephen Jones was undoubtedly better than ROG for a period of the time you specified (Grand Slam and Lions in 2005) as was Hernandez in 2007 (vying with Carter, to be honest) and probably Giteau and James also. They all just played different ways but for periods were class. Carter was just untouchable during those years though.

CGD

Ronan O'Gara

Wilko for me better all round game than the other 2 and World Cup Winner and should be on another Lions tour this year as well. A player you would love to have in your team alongside you in a battle!

Swiwi

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

Well he has an upcoming Lions series to prove so...

...although some posters tell me neither Jonny nor the NH public care much for what the SH thinks on the matter.

Personally, I think Johnny would love to do a "Carter 2005" and stamp his mark over the series.

Buer

trouttrout wrote: »

Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

Not now perhaps but that's more down to Carter not being near his best anymore and Sexton being around his peak. Take Carter for 2005 - 08 and it was scary how good he was. Tackle, run, pass, kick, direct and do it all effortlessly. It was like watching the best of Larkham and Wilkinson rolled into one bloke.

bilston

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

But ROG was simply a much better distributor. I mean you only have to look at the criticism Johnson got for persisting with Wilikinson a few years ago when England had a decent backline that didn't really have a chance to showcase their skills with Wilkinson at 10

I'm not trying to be funny but when did England have a decent back-line under Johnson?

ROG has an excellent pass but then you Wilkinson's ability to play on the gainline and that would have got a lot out of the Irish midfield as well. There are more than two ways to skin a cat.

Swiwi

Ronan O'Gara

Buer wrote: »

Not now perhaps but that's more down to Carter not being near his best anymore and Sexton being around his peak. Take Carter for 2005 - 08 and it was scary how good he was. Tackle, run, pass, kick, direct and do it all effortlessly. It was like watching the best of Larkham and Wilkinson rolled into one bloke.

Carter is regarded (at least in NZ) as the greatest ever AB flyhalf, and that includes a whole host of great ABs throughout the decades. Even the old guys who were around in the 50s & 60s say Carter's the greatest. It's a real shame injury ruined his '07 & '11 RWCs.

If you feel Sexton compares to the greatest AB flyhalf, fairplay to you. For my money he has yet to stamp his authority against SH opposition in the way Carter has done on numerous occasions. Yes, Sexton has been brilliant at HEC level, but he has not yet dominated a match like Carter did in the 05 Lions series.

Cue this upcoming Lions series...

Buer

bilston wrote: »

I'm not trying to be funny but when did England have a decent back-line under Johnson?

Too right. The likes of Hipkiss, Geraghty, Banahan, Monye, Cueto, Tait, Flutey Armitage and Tindall populated the back line during Johnson's tenure. All good players but all probably lacking in international class generally aside from Tindall who was just past it.

Ruck Inspector

Ronan O'Gara

I don't think Sexton has reached anywhere close to Carter's level. And that's no slight against Johnny, Carter was absurdly good in his prime.

trouttrout

bilston wrote: »

I'm not trying to be funny but when did England have a decent back-line under Johnson?

ROG has an excellent pass but then you Wilkinson's ability to play on the gainline and that would have got a lot out of the Irish midfield as well. There are more than two ways to skin a cat.

in 2010 they had a decent back three with Ceuto, Foden and Monye

Sorry now, but Wilkinson does not play on the gainline. He sits very deep when taking the ball. Deeper than ROG