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Who was the better outhalf?

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    #32
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Ronan O'Gara
    bilston wrote: »
    Wilkinson at his best was better than either O'Gara or Jones.

    However for longevity then I'd give it to ROG. Jones was (is? has he retired yet?) a good player too but just a bit behind the other day. I'd put Humphreys ahead of Jones as well.

    Retiring at the end of this season. Presumably he is gone now unless he is involved in the Babas or something like that.


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    #33
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Wilkinson at his best was a fantastic place kicker, tactical kicker and defender. But take away the 8 monsters he was playing behind during his most successful stint and I don't think he'd have garnered half the hype

    Now to a degree ROG also benefited from playing behind a strong pack but not to the same degree. In his hayday he was much better at getting a backline moving than Wilko, superb tactical and place kicker if he did lack in defense


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    #34
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Ronan O'Gara
    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Wilkinson's stats would be a lot more impressive if he didn't lose so many years of international rugby because of injury.

    Can you imagine? He'd probably have reached 140/150 test caps and maybe 1,600+ test points.


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    #35
    Chabals Beard
    Registered Users Posts: 817 ✭✭✭Chabals Beard


    Stephen Jones
    It's ROG for me, over a whole career he was the best.. from 2004 to 2008 he was the best OH in the world, with Carter as a exception


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    #36
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,187 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I don't think he was a linebreaker at all nor would many, I would have thought. Think back to his tries. Samoa in 2010, Wales in 2007, France in 2007, South Africa 2004, Italy 2007, Scotland 2007. He had a habit of getting on the end of a scoring pass and was clever and spotting an opportunity when the opposition weren't awake. The Scotland try in 2011 is the only one I can remember when he broke the defensive line.


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    #37
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Ronan O'Gara
    trouttrout wrote: »
    Wilkinson at his best was a fantastic place kicker, tactical kicker and defender. But take away the 8 monsters he was playing behind during his most successful stint and I don't think he'd have garnered half the hype

    Now to a degree ROG also benefited from playing behind a strong pack but not to the same degree. In his hayday he was much better at getting a backline moving than Wilko, superb tactical and place kicker if he did lack in defense

    But you can't add the footnote that Wilkinson was playing behind a great pack and then say ROG was better at getting his backs moving and not add the footnote that ROG had BOD, Hickie and D'Arcy outside of him.


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    #38
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think


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    #39
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    I think Wilkinson and ROG were evenly matched in a lot of ways, except defense where there's an enormous gulf and thats the deciding factor for me.


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    #40
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    bilston wrote: »
    But you can't add the footnote that Wilkinson was playing behind a great pack and then say ROG was better at getting his backs moving and not add the footnote that ROG had BOD, Hickie and D'Arcy outside of him.

    But ROG was simply a much better distributor. I mean you only have to look at the criticism Johnson got for persisting with Wilikinson a few years ago when England had a decent backline that didn't really have a chance to showcase their skills with Wilkinson at 10

    If ROG or Wilikinson in their prime were operating at 10 for Ireland I'd be very confident that ROG would get a lot more from that backline than Wilkinson


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    #41
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Ronan O'Gara
    trouttrout wrote: »
    Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

    There mightn't be a massive gap at this very moment, but over their careers there is a chasm and that's not a criticism of Sexton who still has a bit to travel in his career but Carter at his peak was sublime. Just think back to the second Lions test in 2005. Unbelieveable performance.


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    #42
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    trouttrout wrote: »
    Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

    Carter is one of the best of all time in his position, maybe he hasn't been as sensational as he can be recently but I haven't seen a huge amount of him to know. In general though I think there's a big enough gap


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    #43
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,187 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Chabals Beard wrote: »
    It's ROG for me, over a whole career he was the best.. from 2004 to 2008 he was the best OH in the world, with Carter as a exception

    For a short spell, probably. But it was fleeting. There was a glut of them all jostling. Stephen Jones was undoubtedly better than ROG for a period of the time you specified (Grand Slam and Lions in 2005) as was Hernandez in 2007 (vying with Carter, to be honest) and probably Giteau and James also. They all just played different ways but for periods were class. Carter was just untouchable during those years though.


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    #44
    CGD
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭CGD


    Ronan O'Gara
    Wilko for me better all round game than the other 2 and World Cup Winner and should be on another Lions tour this year as well. A player you would love to have in your team alongside you in a battle!


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    #45
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Ronan O'Gara
    trouttrout wrote: »
    Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

    Well he has an upcoming Lions series to prove so...

    ...although some posters tell me neither Jonny nor the NH public care much for what the SH thinks on the matter.

    Personally, I think Johnny would love to do a "Carter 2005" and stamp his mark over the series.


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    #46
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,187 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    trouttrout wrote: »
    Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

    Not now perhaps but that's more down to Carter not being near his best anymore and Sexton being around his peak. Take Carter for 2005 - 08 and it was scary how good he was. Tackle, run, pass, kick, direct and do it all effortlessly. It was like watching the best of Larkham and Wilkinson rolled into one bloke.


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    #47
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Ronan O'Gara
    trouttrout wrote: »
    But ROG was simply a much better distributor. I mean you only have to look at the criticism Johnson got for persisting with Wilikinson a few years ago when England had a decent backline that didn't really have a chance to showcase their skills with Wilkinson at 10

    I'm not trying to be funny but when did England have a decent back-line under Johnson?

    ROG has an excellent pass but then you Wilkinson's ability to play on the gainline and that would have got a lot out of the Irish midfield as well. There are more than two ways to skin a cat.


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    #48
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Ronan O'Gara
    Buer wrote: »
    Not now perhaps but that's more down to Carter not being near his best anymore and Sexton being around his peak. Take Carter for 2005 - 08 and it was scary how good he was. Tackle, run, pass, kick, direct and do it all effortlessly. It was like watching the best of Larkham and Wilkinson rolled into one bloke.

    Carter is regarded (at least in NZ) as the greatest ever AB flyhalf, and that includes a whole host of great ABs throughout the decades. Even the old guys who were around in the 50s & 60s say Carter's the greatest. It's a real shame injury ruined his '07 & '11 RWCs.

    If you feel Sexton compares to the greatest AB flyhalf, fairplay to you. For my money he has yet to stamp his authority against SH opposition in the way Carter has done on numerous occasions. Yes, Sexton has been brilliant at HEC level, but he has not yet dominated a match like Carter did in the 05 Lions series.

    Cue this upcoming Lions series...


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    #49
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,187 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    bilston wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be funny but when did England have a decent back-line under Johnson?


    Too right. The likes of Hipkiss, Geraghty, Banahan, Monye, Cueto, Tait, Flutey Armitage and Tindall populated the back line during Johnson's tenure. All good players but all probably lacking in international class generally aside from Tindall who was just past it.


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    #50
    Ruck Inspector
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 373 ✭✭Ruck Inspector


    Ronan O'Gara
    I don't think Sexton has reached anywhere close to Carter's level. And that's no slight against Johnny, Carter was absurdly good in his prime.


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    #51
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    bilston wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be funny but when did England have a decent back-line under Johnson?

    ROG has an excellent pass but then you Wilkinson's ability to play on the gainline and that would have got a lot out of the Irish midfield as well. There are more than two ways to skin a cat.

    in 2010 they had a decent back three with Ceuto, Foden and Monye

    Sorry now, but Wilkinson does not play on the gainline. He sits very deep when taking the ball. Deeper than ROG


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    #52
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Ronan O'Gara
    Chabals Beard wrote: »
    It's ROG for me, over a whole career he was the best.. from 2004 to 2008 he was the best OH in the world, with Carter as a exception

    This is not necessaily my opinion, but ROG is regarded in NZ as a bit of a lemon flyhalf. As I said above he never played well v NZ, and in fact he had the odd shocker or too, so despite his good performances, particularly in the 6N, he is not highly regarded back home.

    I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm simply stating how he's perceived there.

    Wilkinson is (grudgingly) held in high enough regard in NZ. Jones was serviceable, but he's not a patch on Wilkinson or Sexton.


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    #53
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,187 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Swiwi wrote: »
    This is not necessaily my opinion, but ROG is regarded in NZ as a bit of a lemon flyhalf. As I said above he never played well v NZ, and in fact he had the odd shocker or too, so despite his good performances, particularly in the 6N, he is not highly regarded back home.

    I think it was the Bay of Plenty match in 2005 where the Kiwi commentator remarked "Kiwis know a lemon when they see one". ROG's chances of making the test side died that day and it was only the second or so game down there.


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    #54
    Ruck Inspector
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 373 ✭✭Ruck Inspector


    Ronan O'Gara
    ROG went on three Lions tours but only managed 2 caps and 0 points.


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    #55
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Ronan O'Gara
    Has to be wilkinson his stats are incredible for someone who was injured for the best part of 4 years. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I've seen Wilkinson have a meltdown like ROG did this year. Wilkinson is the only one being talked about for the lions this year.
    Also if ROG is better than Wilko and Jones why didn't he start on the lions tours in 05 or 09? Surely he would've if he was a better player? Didn't both jones and wilkinson start in 05?
    He also can't defend whereas Wilkinson and to a lesser extent Jones were/are brilliant defenders.
    I'm not saying ROG is a bad player, he was a wonderful player and in my opinion Ireland's best ever 10 but he's not on par with wilkinson and about level with jones who was equally brilliant for Wales.


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    #56
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Swiwi wrote: »
    For my money he has yet to stamp his authority against SH opposition in the way Carter has done on numerous occasions. Yes, Sexton has been brilliant at HEC level, but he has not yet dominated a match like Carter did in the 05 Lions series.

    Funny you mention it because I think one of the few times he has stamped his authority on a game for Ireland was against SH opposition, v Argentina in November.

    Just looking at the stats and he scored 2 tries, had 3 assists, made 4 tackles missed 0, and ran for more metres than anyone bar Gilroy. We were without POC and BOD and he really took control. Argentina weren't at their best but he is certainly capable of it, hopefully it all comes together for one of the Lions tests


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    #57
    schools rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭schools rugby


    Who would people have has the top 3 10s in rugby at the moment ?

    Very difficult to think of any 10 standing out at the moment .


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    #58
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ronan O'Gara
    I'm not really sure to be honest. I think ROG had the longest consistent run of form - he was truly excellent from 04-07. Wilko I think was probably the best overall in terms of peak, but his peak was comparatively short. His last year or so playing for England were every bit as bad as ROG's last couple years for Ireland. I would have had Jones as close but behind those two, mind you the guy has 6 Lions caps.


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    #59
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Ronan O'Gara
    schools rugby wrote: »
    Who would people have has the top 3 10s in rugby at the moment ?

    Very difficult to think of any 10 standing out at the moment .

    Carter, Sexton, Cruden for me.


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    #60
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Ronan O'Gara
    Tox56 wrote: »
    Funny you mention it because I think one of the few times he has stamped his authority on a game for Ireland was against SH opposition, v Argentina in November.

    Just looking at the stats and he scored 2 tries, had 3 assists, made 4 tackles missed 0, and ran for more metres than anyone bar Gilroy. We were without POC and BOD and he really took control. Argentina weren't at their best but he is certainly capable of it, hopefully it all comes together for one of the Lions tests

    I agree. Sexton & Ireland were very good that day.


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    #61
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Ronan O'Gara
    Wilkinson by a long long way.


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