Who was the better outhalf?

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

Bridge93 wrote: »

He said still the best club OH

he was saying of the three named, despite the arguments being made against it, ROG is still the best club OH.... which i certainly agree with.

I didnt read it as saying he is currently the best of the three... perhaps you did?

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

Bridge93 wrote: »

Wilkinson spent most of his career in a poor Newcastle side competing with Leicester and wasps. O Gara was in a brilliant Munster side. Also he wasn't injured for the best part of 4 years.

yes, consistency is a mark of a great player.

I am pie

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

I would push ROG on the basis of what he did consistently at heineken cup level, Wilkos 'peak' as such was short but startling. Nearly all johnny's honours are at international stage whereas ROGs are at club level.

To me wilksons highlights include a total of 36 out of 46 points in englands first ever back to back victories against the ABs in 02/03.

Syd, I reckon those achievements were Munster´s as a collective rather than ROGs. If either of the Jones or Jonny Wilkinson were in that great side I don´t think the results would be different.

However, if ROG went to the WC with England I don´t think they would have won it.

Bridge93

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

he was saying of the three named, despite the arguments being made against it, ROG is still the best club OH.... which i certainly agree with.

I didnt read it as saying he is currently the best of the three... perhaps you did?

He'll havta clarify for us. I believe either way Wilkinson was/is/will be a better player than O Gara.

Bridge93

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes, consistency is a mark of a great player.

Which Wilkinson has been whenever fit. Can't say the same about O Gara this season

totallegend

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson at his best was infinitely better than the other two at their best. No contest.

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

I am pie wrote: »

.....

However, if ROG went to the WC with England I don´t think they would have won it.

hummm..........

because johnny kicked penalties and drop goals under pressure... which of course, ROG was useless at????

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

hummm..........

because johnny kicked penalties and drop goals under pressure... which of course, ROG was useless at????

No but I'd put strong money that in an absolute ferociously physical WC final, Australia would have broken through ROG's defence and put at least one additional penalty on the board. ROG also wasn't the kicker in 2003 that he became. He was 2/5 in the pool game against Australia that we lost by a single point.

Chabals Beard

Stephen Jones

In fairness, name one good out half who had a poor pack in front of him. From someone who plays 10 it is incredibly hard to play when your pack, especially your backrow are being beaten

Buer

Chabals Beard wrote: »

In fairness, name one good out half who had a poor pack in front of him. From someone who plays 10 it is incredibly hard to play when your pack, especially your backrow are being beaten

Felipe Contepomi. His team lost the very biggest games against the top sides games but there were multiple games where he looked class and won the game despite his pack being on the back foot.

Chabals Beard

Stephen Jones

Buer wrote: »

Felipe Contepomi. His team lost the very biggest games against the top sides games but there were multiple games where he looked class and won the game despite his pack being on the back foot.

The Argie pack was always able to mix it with the best of them

Buer

Chabals Beard wrote: »

The Argie pack was always able to mix it with the best of them

But the Leinster one was kicked up and down the park. Look at the Leinster pack that beat Toulouse. Brian Blaney, Bryce Williams, Cameron Jowitt, weak. Couldn't do anything against sides like Leicester and Munster that simply owned the ball but anything outside of that was winnable. He could win the game with 30-40% of possession.

irishbucsfan

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

hummm..........

because johnny kicked penalties and drop goals under pressure... which of course, ROG was useless at????

He was also probably the best tackler in the world pound for pound.

I remember the IT asked players from all teams in the buildup to the 2003 world cup who was the best defender in the world and everyone said Wilkinson apart from a couple (including Wilkinson) who said Lemi.

And ROG WAS useless at that.

Eoin

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Using Lions selections does not "Prove" one player is better than the other over the course of their career. There are so many different variables at play when it comes to Lions selection (form at the time, warm up games, type of game plan....etc)

True, I seem to remember that Tyrone Howe got called up to the Lions as a replacement ahead of Denis Hickie, and I'm pretty sure that Hickie was fit and ready to play. Not that I'd say ROG was the best 10 in the world though; I think that's a stretch.

I think the order in the first post is about right.

irishbucsfan wrote:

He was also probably the best tackler in the world pound for pound.

Agreed, I remember the papers after England hockied us in the 6N - think it was just before the RWC. There was three pictures of JW dump tackling various Irish players, and they weren't small guys either. He did go in a bit high the other weekend though!

irishbucsfan

Ronan O'Gara

Was that the day Greenwood trolled us with the ball in the corner?

If it was theres an amazing sequence where Wikkinson made like 3 tackles in a row. He really was a uniquely talented defensive 10.

Ruck Inspector

Ronan O'Gara

Eoin wrote: »

Agreed, I remember the papers after England hockied us in the 6N - think it was just before the RWC. There was three pictures of JW dump tackling various Irish players, and they weren't small guys either. He did go in a bit high the other weekend though!

Pretty sure ROG would be in a wheelchair if he tried to tackle that guy

trouttrout

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

Pretty sure ROG would be in a wheelchair if he tried to tackle that guy

Is there any need for this kind of ridiculous hyperbole when it comes to any player?

ROG is a bad defender, but this kind of thing really irritates me tbh. ROG has tried (and failed) to tackle bigger guys yet thankfully has remained out of the way of serious injury. Not nice assuming one would befall him if he were to try an tackle him

Sundy

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Is there any need for this kind of ridiculous hyperbole when it comes to any player?

ROG is a bad defender, but this kind of thing really irritates me tbh. ROG has tried (and failed) to tackle bigger guys yet thankfully has remained out of the way of serious injury. Not nice assuming one would befall him if he were to try an tackle him

In fairness to ROG he never dodged when players ran at him, he tried. I cant think right now of a game where a missed tackle from him cost a win.

He actually benefited from people knowing he had a weak tackle because player ran straight down his throat and by getting in their way he usually delayed them enough for a secondary tackler to get there.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing but putting your body in front of a player is brave. its better than just sticking out a weak arm a la Geordan Murphy v france.

Grandpa Hassan

Ronan O'Gara

Jonny Wilkinson v Emile Ntamack.

And that wasn't a one off. Even if all other things were equal between the three of them, its the physicality that set JW apart

artvandelay48

Ronan O'Gara

shuffol wrote: »

I think Wilkinson and ROG were evenly matched in a lot of ways, except defense where there's an enormous gulf and thats the deciding factor for me.

Wilkinson for this hit alone:

Whatever you think about the wilko hype, he changed the way 10s play. After wilko arrived, gone were there days when you could carry a "mercurial" player (Arwel Thomas anyone?) that couldn't tackle himself out of a paper bag. Wilko was the first tough tackling 10. To call him just a kicker is doing him a great disservice.

Edit: Grandpa Hassan, Snap!

Buer

The year before the WC was just unreal from Wilkinson. He played to a level that hadn't been seen before by an international outhalf on a consistent basis and has only been shown by Carter since.`If you start with the win against NZ in London where he chipped the defence and gathered for a try, the series of games that followed were simply unreal. 11 games, 11 wins, 171 points, NZ beaten home and away, Australia beaten home and away.

Gambas

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson is miles ahead of the other two IMO. Defensively he was immense, cut from the same cloth as BOD and similarly destroyed his own shoulders with the same ferocity. Aside from that, his placekicking was peerless. There is no outhalf more suited to 10 man rugby behind a dominant pack. No chance England would have won in 2003 with anyone else.

Little between Jones and ROG, both top class place kickers if not quite in JW's league. ROG was excellent out of hand, be it finding touch or drop goals, Jones better defensively. I think the Lions caps ultimately tell a tale though. Keeping the heart in check, and going with the head, Jones shades it for me too.

Buer

Jones also had balls of steel when required under pressure. People often say that ROG was the main man in this regard but SJ was well able to deliver also. That penalty in the 76th minute of the second test in 2009 was possibly as high a pressure penalty as has been kicked in international rugby in the past decade. Flatley and Donald can lay claim to that also but their kicks were probably easier if memory serves me right.

eyeball kid

Ronan O'Gara

Think I'd have to go for Wilkinson. At his best, he was far better than the ROG and Jones. Scary to think of the number of caps/points he could have got if he wasn't injured for so long after the 2003 world cup.

Tim Robbins

eyeball kid wrote: »

Think I'd have to go for Wilkinson. At his best, he was far better than the ROG and Jones. Scary to think of the number of caps/points he could have got if he wasn't injured for so long after the 2003 world cup.

I think JW would have made the all blacks. I don't think ROG would have.

Webbs

Ronan O'Gara

throughout the Irish 'golden generation' the general consensus in Wales was thank god the Irish didnt have a more rounded OH such as Jones otherwise Ireland could and should have a hatful of slams. For that reason it has to be Wilko, Jones ROG in that order. (this is not to say that ROG wasnt a class act in his time)

hardCopy

Ronan O'Gara

I love Wilkinson as a player but maybe he should have minded his body a bit more and avoided some of those big hits. It can't be a coincidence that ROG with his famous aversion to tackling managed to have a long and pretty much injury free career.

trouttrout

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think JW would have made the all blacks. I don't think ROG would have.

I don't think he would have considering Wilikinson's style is completely contradictory to how the AB's play

Grimebox

Ronan O'Gara

hardCopy wrote: »

I love Wilkinson as a player but maybe he should have minded his body a bit more and avoided some of those big hits. It can't be a coincidence that ROG with his famous aversion to tackling managed to have a long and pretty much injury free career.

I'm gonna go ahead and call that coincidence

Tox56

Webbs wrote: »

throughout the Irish 'golden generation' the general consensus in Wales was thank god the Irish didnt have a more rounded OH such as Jones otherwise Ireland could and should have a hatful of slams. For that reason it has to be Wilko, Jones ROG in that order. (this is not to say that ROG wasnt a class act in his time)

In fairness (I can't be arsed to look up
the stats) but we had something like 3 second place finishes in the 6N in the space of like 5/6 years when ROG was the 10, often on points difference and usually to the bloody French. Maybe a more rounded OH would have helped but we weren't far off getting those slams and championships. Ironically the 1 year we did get a slam ROG was actually pretty crap, so there's always a bit of luck with these things, and we didn't get it during the 00s