Sexism you deal with in everyday life? Mod Note in first post. Please read

angeldelight · 05-03-2013 05:22PM

I work all over the place doing days here and there so in fairness people aren't to know that I'm the pharmacist that day so usually ask one of the regular staff... But if there happens to be any male in the pharmacy - rep, delivery driver, electrician they speak over me to them asking about their prescription!

Neyite · 05-03-2013 09:00PM

Das Kitty wrote: »

Your dad should have told the farmers to cop the eff on and grow up instead of discriminating against his staff member. Yeah, he might have tought he'd lose some of the old boy farmers, but in reality I'd say very few would jump ship. Similar situation in a vets I know, the practise owner sent the woman out anyway and after a few visits they realised how good a vet she was and there wasn't another complaint.

If he's ruling out female vets now, he's actively discriminating against them.

True. A female vet was taken on in the only vet practice in my home town. Initially, there were lots of auld fellas saying the same, not to send her out. When they were bluntly told it was her or nobody, they soon copped on sharpish. Turns out that she is extremely good at her job and within a few years she was being requested constantly by the very lads who would not previously trust a woman with their livestock. She eventually took over the practice from the man when he retired and is doing very well.

Lyaiera · 29-03-2013 01:45PM

This isn't every day, and it isn't typical for the majority of women, but it is casual sexism.

For those who don't know I'm transgender and I'm pre-transition. So for all appearances I'm a dude in every day life. Today I had a job interview. Literally the second thing out of the interviewers mouth was a bit of casual sexism. "Haha, it's good to interview a guy, there's already too many women in the office." Or something to that effect. I mumbled something and gave a half hearted "Ha ha" while thinking "Has he really not asked an other women to interview for the job? Surely he's joking." And then thinking, "If this is his attitude what will he think when I tell him I plan to transition?"

Now I know it's 99% likely to be a joke in a sort of, "Ha! One of the guys. Eh!" way. But now I'm left wondering what do I do about those situations? He has the ability to hire me or not, when I need money to move out (which I need to do to transition) so do I risk offending him and losing the job by telling him that's not acceptable? And even more so I'm thinking that maybe he isn't just a moron and was seeing if I would call him on that. Maybe that's why I didn't get the job?

username123 · 29-03-2013 01:51PM

^^ He was just a moron.

My husband interviewed for a job last year and the guy phoned to tell him that he would like to have hired him but that the other person to be working with the new staff member preferred to work with a woman. Didnt even cop on he was leaving himself open to a lawsuit for saying something like that.

To be perfectly honest with you, in the moment there is no real dealing with morons like that. You know if you say anything there and then it affects the job application. However, there is nothing stopping you complaining to his superior after you have been turned down for the job and in fact, he could be putting the company at risk of an equality lawsuit by making stupid comments like that. Is it worth the hassle? Thats for you to decide.

Would you have pulled him up on it if he had made a racist comment?

Lyaiera · 29-03-2013 01:57PM

username123 wrote: »

^^ He was just a moron.

My husband interviewed for a job last year and the guy phoned to tell him that he would like to have hired him but that the other person to be working with the new staff member preferred to work with a woman. Didnt even cop on he was leaving himself open to a lawsuit for saying something like that.

To be perfectly honest with you, in the moment there is no real dealing with morons like that. You know if you say anything there and then it affects the job application. However, there is nothing stopping you complaining to his superior after you have been turned down for the job and in fact, he could be putting the company at risk of an equality lawsuit by making stupid comments like that. Is it worth the hassle? Thats for you to decide.

Would you have pulled him up on it if he had made a racist comment?

He owns the business. (And there's no proper smiley to display my feelings on that.)

And the racist comment really puts it in perspective. If he did say something racist, I hope I would have called him on it instantly and walked out. And what's weird is I just read a blog post about this very thing the other day. "What would you do if you weren't afraid?" About how the blogger finds it very easy to stand up for other people if they're being treated badly, but just laughs it off if it's directed at herself. http://meagan-marie.tumblr.com/post/46396481491/what-would-you-do-if-you-werent-afraid

And what's also worrying is whether I would have thought of it again if I did get the job? And if I did get the job would it have effected my plan to transition?

wallycharlo · 29-03-2013 02:03PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

...

Literally the second thing out of the interviewers mouth was a bit of casual sexism. "Haha, it's good to interview a guy, there's already too many women in the office." Or something to that effect.

...

I've an interesting corollary to that. I work myself in a industry which is very male dominated, though on occasion we would also get female applicants. I'm pretty sure that I could well have made a comment during interview which would allude to the fact that it would be nice to see more women working in the industry / applying for positions etc. Hopefully such comments would not have been construed as being sexist in nature ...

username123 · 29-03-2013 02:19PM

wallycharlo wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that I could well have made a comment during interview which would allude to the fact that it would be nice to see more women working in the industry / applying for positions etc.

Why would you pass comment on it at all? Surely it would be best practice not to refer to the gender of the person in the interview at all in case you make them uncomfortable?

wallycharlo · 29-03-2013 02:31PM

username123 wrote: »

Why would you pass comment on it at all? Surely it would be best practice not to refer to the gender of the person in the interview at all in case you make them uncomfortable?

There is a large push in the industry in general (which is semiconductors BTW) to get more women involved, starting at the level of trying to presuade more girls in schools to take subjects such as higher level maths, physics, etc, and go on to persue careers as engineers, etc.

Any comments which I may have made would purley have intended to be a positive acknowledment of the above, though I do take your point that perhaps leaving it out may remove any possability of someone taking offence from such a remark.

Food for thought ...

Honey-ec · 29-03-2013 02:40PM

username123 wrote: »

Why would you pass comment on it at all? Surely it would be best practice not to refer to the gender of the person in the interview at all in case you make them uncomfortable?

I think people are far too quick to infer sexism from comments like that. Any time I've worked in an industry that was dominated by one gender, loads of people in the office would comment whenever someone new was starting that it'd be nice if they were of whichever gender was underrepresented. I've done it myself. Sometimes it's just nice to have a bit more gender balance in a particular workplace.

Lyaiera · 29-03-2013 02:50PM

Honey-ec wrote: »

I think people are far too quick to infer sexism from comments like that. Any time I've worked in an industry that was dominated by one gender, loads of people in the office would comment whenever someone new was starting that it'd be nice if they were of whichever gender was underrepresented. I've done it myself. Sometimes it's just nice to have a bit more gender balance in a particular workplace.

At my last job the boss and said it's nice to have another man in the office again. I have no problem with that and I think it can be a friendly thing to do to welcome someone. I don't think it's bad for people in an office to talk about gender balance and harmony in their office. But when it's in a job interview, where you're being put on the spot and your reactions are being judged I don't think it's right to make reference to something so uncontrollable and supposedly irrelevant as someone's gender. It has no effect on someone's ability or qualifications for almost all jobs (taking into account acting and that.) And to boot it made me uncomfortable as hell.

Honey-ec · 29-03-2013 02:59PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

At my last job the boss and said it's nice to have another man in the office again. I have no problem with that and I think it can be a friendly thing to do to welcome someone. I don't think it's bad for people in an office to talk about gender balance and harmony in their office. But when it's in a job interview, where you're being put on the spot and your reactions are being judged I don't think it's right to make reference to something so uncontrollable and supposedly irrelevant as someone's gender. It has no effect on someone's ability or qualifications for almost all jobs (taking into account acting and that.) And to boot it made me uncomfortable as hell.

Sorry, should have been clearer, I was referring to username123's comment about WallyCharlo's observation about saying it would be nice to see more women working in his industry.

I can totally understand your issue with the comment made during your interview, but I think the context was different. Your interviewer sounds like a sexist twat. Wallycharlo was making a fair observation. Whether it's an appropriate observation to make in an interview is down to personal opinion, I think. It certainly wouldn't bother me if a male interviewer in a male-dominated industry said it to me during an interview.

username123 · 29-03-2013 05:24PM

Honey-ec wrote: »

It certainly wouldn't bother me if a male interviewer in a male-dominated industry said it to me during an interview.

It wouldnt particularly bother me either, but it could make someone uncomfortable. Particularly in a job interview situation. I think its generally a good idea to be sensitive in job interviews.

wallycharlo · 29-03-2013 05:34PM

username123 wrote: »

It wouldnt particularly bother me either, but it could make someone uncomfortable. Particularly in a job interview situation. I think its generally a good idea to be sensitive in job interviews.

I see your point, in a general context.

But at the same time, in my particular line of work, any woman who is in the same field would take it as a given that it's a male dominated industry, so in my own case I'm not so sure that such a comment would make an interview candidate uncomfortable. My intentions are aimed at being positive, to give encouragement, and also perhaps to give a feeler to the candidate that they have made a good impression.

username123 · 29-03-2013 05:41PM

wallycharlo wrote: »

I see your point, in a general context.

But at the same time, in my particular line of work, any woman who is in the same field would take it as a given that it's a male dominated industry, so in my own case I'm not so sure that such a comment would make an interview candidate uncomfortable. My intentions are aimed at being positive, to give encouragement, and also perhaps to give a feeler to the candidate that they have made a good impression.

What I was actually thinking was that Id worry someone could be given the impression that they were only getting the interview or the job to fill a gender quota rather than being the best candidate by gender being referred to at all in the interview.

To go back to a comment I made earlier, you wouldnt say anything about it being great that someone of a particular race was applying. You simply wouldnt refer to someones race in an interview (obviously unless it was a requirement for the job like some acting role).

Pawwed Rig · 29-03-2013 05:47PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

But when it's in a job interview, where you're being put on the spot and your reactions are being judged I don't think it's right to make reference to something so uncontrollable and supposedly irrelevant as someone's gender. It has no effect on someone's ability or qualifications for almost all jobs (taking into account acting and that.) And to boot it made me uncomfortable as hell.

The rule of thumb for giving interviews is to say the exact same thing to all applicants who apply. Otherwise you are leaving yourself open to all sorts of discrimination litigation. Mentioning gender, race or any of the other below* is a big No No.
Cases such as the one where Ryan Air wanted to hire 'young enthusiastic people' have been deemed discriminatory as have many others. If anyone suspects the reason they did not get a job is due to any of the reasons below then they would have a good case. If the employer tells you, as a previous poster said, that they would prefer to work with a man and so that is why they are not hiring you then you will win and receive a large payout from a subsequent case.

*The 9 Grounds on which Discrimination is Unlawful are: The grounds on which discrimination is declared unlawful in Ireland are discussed in this document.

Gender

A man, a woman or a transsexual person (specific protection is provided for pregnant employees or in relation to maternity leave)
Marital status

Which means single, married, separated, divorced, or widowed.

Family status

This means having responsibility either as a parent or as a person in loco parentis for someone below 18 years of age, or as a parent or resident primary carer for someone 18 years or over with a disability who requires a high degree of support and attention.

Age

In general this means people in employment between the ages of 18 and 65; and people in vocational training between the ages of 15 and 65.

Disability

This is broadly defined including people with physical, intellectual, learning, cognitive or emotional disabilities and a range of medical conditions

Race

Includes race, colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin.

Sexual Orientation

Gay, lesbian, bisexual or heterosexual; (The Court of Justice in PSV held that discrimination against a transsexual constituted discrimination on the grounds of sex.)

Religious Belief

Includes religious background or outlook or lack of religious belief.

Membership of the Traveller community

People who are commonly called Travellers, who are identified both by Travellers and others as people with a shared history, culture and traditions, identified historically as a nomadic way of life on the island of Ireland.

Morag · 30-03-2013 11:47PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/science/space/yvonne-brill-rocket-scientist-dies-at-88.html

Yvonne Brill was the only woman who worked as a rocket scientist in the 1940s and went on to design the propulsion system which keeps all communications satellites in their correct orbit but the paper leads with a bit about how she was good cook, wife and mother before mentioning her other accomplishments.

Cos that is what really matter ladies that you don't neglect your real duties while trying to be a rocket scientist.

WittyKitty1 · 31-03-2013 12:35AM

A lecturer I had in college was full of remarks towards the female students.

He was planning an event and came up with the idea of sending 'pretty girls' from the class around to the male dominated classes as they were more likely to buy tickets if girls were selling them- Needless to say his idea was met with a few disgruntled faces from the female students-

...And yes, I HATE it when employers refer to you as 'chicken,darling,sweetheart'- drives me crazy!!!

Morag · 31-03-2013 08:21PM

http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/finkbeiner_test_gender_gap_fem.php

Aschwanden cited a few examples littered with phrases like, “she is married, has two children and has been able to keep up with her research,” and proposed that, as a means of avoiding such gratuitous gender profiles, reporters adopt a simple, seven-part test. To pass, a story cannot mention:

The fact that she’s a woman
Her husband’s job
Her child-care arrangements
How she nurtures her underlings
How she was taken aback by the competitiveness in her field
How she’s such a role model for other women
How she’s the “first woman to…”

Aschwanden dubbed her checklist, “The Finkbeiner Test,” in honor of her colleague, science writer Ann Finkbeiner, who had written a post for the blog Last Word on Nothing in January about an assignment she’d received from Nature to write a profile of a female astronomer.

Finkbeiner, an award-winning journalist, noted that the assignment had come “just before the magazine announced publicly that it needs to redress its problem with a gender balance that favors males,” and that both she and her subject were “suspiciously female.”

“I honestly don’t care,” Finkbeiner concluded. “What I won’t do, however, is write about this astronomer as a woman.”

Finkbeiner went on to explain that she’d written many gender-oriented profiles over the course of her career at various editors’ behest, and learned all about sexual harassment and the challenges associated with having both a career and a family.

Some progress notwithstanding, those problems have not gone away, she continued, but she had grown “bored” with writing about them, and pledged to ignore gender in the upcoming profile. “I’m going to pretend she’s just an astronomer,” she wrote.

wallycharlo · 02-04-2013 12:49PM

Morag wrote: »

... the paper leads with a bit about how she was good cook, wife and mother before mentioning her other accomplishments....

But it doesn't?

i.e. the article title and first part of the opening sentence both focus on her technical achievements before mentioning anything else?

Yvonne Brill, a Pioneering Rocket Scientist, Dies at 88

She was a brilliant rocket scientist who ...

... also, the article which you linked up does not have a single reference to cooking, perhaps you linked the wrong article and it was another one with the same subject matter which you had in mind?

Morag · 02-04-2013 01:10PM

The article was edited after the uproar, it originally mentioned her beef-strangonoff' in the opening lines, it still states she was a 'great mom' before mentioning her inventions.

http://www.newsdiffs.org/diff/192021/192137/www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/science/space/yvonne-brill-rocket-scientist-dies-at-88.html

YumCha · 16-04-2013 04:38PM

Today is the first anniversary of the EverydaySexism project:
https://twitter.com/EverydaySexism
http://www.everydaysexism.com

Have been reading the tweets and nodding along far too much - particularly the ones about keeping your shoulders hunched forwards to 'hide' your chest... I've done this for so long I can't even remember exactly what started it in the first place, but I have a vague memory of being 17 and a bunch of guys at a sporting match yelling at me that "they must be fake!"

shoos · 16-04-2013 08:18PM

YumCha wrote: »

Today is the first anniversary of the EverydaySexism project:
https://twitter.com/EverydaySexism
http://www.everydaysexism.com

Have been reading the tweets and nodding along far too much - particularly the ones about keeping your shoulders hunched forwards to 'hide' your chest... I've done this for so long I can't even remember exactly what started it in the first place, but I have a vague memory of being 17 and a bunch of guys at a sporting match yelling at me that "they must be fake!"

I've experienced similar to so many of those stories and it's funny because a lot of times when it happens I just brush it off, move on, try forget about it. It's only when there's a list in front of you like on that Twitter feed that I've realised how much sh*t I've encountered. Sexism fatigue, that's what they call it don't they?

What's been annoying me recently is when lads suggest that whenever a girl does something typically "boyish" they get called attention-seeking and only doing it to get lads attention. Sometimes the description ends there but sometimes, mainly online, the guys talking about this go on to call the girls attention seeking sluts and whores.

I think it's been mentioned on this thread in relation to women liking and talking about sport - we're just not taken seriously. I'm not that into sport personally but I've experienced it with rock music, gaming and certain film genres. Apparently the only reason girls could ever possibly be interested in these hugely popular forms of entertainment is just to fool guys into thinking they're cool or liking them. Get the f*ck over yourselves, seriously.

Demonique · 12-05-2013 06:12PM

awec wrote: »

Won't deny that, the refusal of medical treatment was clearly wrong.

But this assumption that a woman will have children is not sexism in any way, shape or form to me.

Except that it is sexism to assume that deep down all a woman really wants to do with her life is shoot babies out of her crotch

Lyaiera · 13-05-2013 05:53PM

I saw this via twitter. Did I miss something as a child or is this a new invention in gender roles? For me board games were always firmly gender neutral, and certainly the ones in the picture were. We mostly played them with my aunt (my parents hated the idea of sitting down with games.) And at my aunt's place everyone played them and there was arguing from everyone about what to play.

kat.mac · 13-05-2013 06:07PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

I saw this via twitter. Did I miss something as a child or is this a new invention in gender roles? For me board games were always firmly gender neutral, and certainly the ones in the picture were. We mostly played them with my aunt (my parents hated the idea of sitting down with games.) And at my aunt's place everyone played them and there was arguing from everyone about what to play.

To me, the message behind this is:

BOYS: Stimulate your brains and develop your strategic thinking and analytical skills

GIRLS: Learn to be, like, pretty and sh*t

13-05-2013 06:23PM

Demonique wrote: »

Except that it is sexism to assume that deep down all a woman really wants to do with her life is shoot babies out of her crotch

I take and agree with your point.

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to have children and it's a choice no one should have to defend, explain, or have assumed about them one way or another.

Equally, wanting to have children shouldn't be derisively referred to as shooting babies out of your crotch. There is nothing wrong with wanting kids either.

We're all on the same side here surely, without alienating one another with derogatory language.

Das Kitty · 13-05-2013 06:50PM

Yeah, I wish giving birth was that easy too!

13-05-2013 07:46PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

I saw this via twitter. Did I miss something as a child or is this a new invention in gender roles? For me board games were always firmly gender neutral, and certainly the ones in the picture were. We mostly played them with my aunt (my parents hated the idea of sitting down with games.) And at my aunt's place everyone played them and there was arguing from everyone about what to play.

I'd say that's more likely to just be a shelving issue. The sign above is clearly a relatively permanent sign, with the blue being painted onto the walls. They probably found a place for board games and never updated the sign above, or the whole shop is divided into boys/girls and they just arbitrarily chose the boys' section for family games.

I do think it's sexist to divide the shop into boys/girls, but I sincerely doubt there's any significant message behind putting board games in the boys' section.

wallycharlo · 13-05-2013 07:51PM

true-or-false wrote: »

...but I sincerely doubt there's any significant message behind putting board games in the boys' section.

+1

The likes of Cluedo , Monopoly, Guess Who etc are inherently gender neutral, always have been, always will be. I would imagine it pretty much a given that there is no ''thinking games for boys - barbies for girls" message lying beneath this.

The choice of putting them on that shelf is indeed rather thoughtless though.

13-05-2013 10:07PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

I saw this via twitter. Did I miss something as a child or is this a new invention in gender roles? For me board games were always firmly gender neutral, and certainly the ones in the picture were. We mostly played them with my aunt (my parents hated the idea of sitting down with games.) And at my aunt's place everyone played them and there was arguing from everyone about what to play.

I have a feeling that store was being rearranged and the boardgames were moved to the former 'Boys Toys' section, pending new signage. Not that sections should be classified like that anyway mind.

They quite clearly should be under boardgames, and are so obviously gender neutral that only a toyshop utterly determined to do themselves out of business would be that stupid.

Sexism you deal with in everyday life? ***Mod Note in first post. Please read***

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Sexism you deal with in everyday life? Mod Note in first post. Please read