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Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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    #932
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    if there's only room for one platform, why not have staggered platforms as at Jervis?


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    #933
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,267 ✭✭✭markpb


    loyatemu wrote: »
    if there's only room for one platform, why not have staggered platforms as at Jervis?

    IIRC the problem was a combination of
    - the footpaths are already very busy so there's no space for a kerb-side platform
    - the stop is expected to be so busy that an island platform is not expected to be safe
    - there are already a large number of bus stops on the street which need to be kept or re-organised but not kicked off the street
    - there is a need to keep local access to the shops for deliveries
    - there is no desire to share tram platforms with bus stops (presumably because of DBs dire dwell times)

    A staggered platform would, presumably, cause problems for DB and deliveries.


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    #934
    Dick Turnip
    Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Dick Turnip


    Quick question - how will the new line hook up with the green line?

    I presume the current green line will just continue all the way to Broombridge? Or will Stephens green be a terminus still and you will have to switch trams to continue towards Broombridge?


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    #935
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Dick Turnip wrote: »
    Quick question - how will the new line hook up with the green line?

    I presume the current green line will just continue all the way to Broombridge? Or will Stephens green be a terminus still and you will have to switch trams to continue towards Broombridge?

    the first one.


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    #936
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    monument wrote: »
    If I'm recalling correctly, it was a lot more than just business people objecting that caused the stop in one direction to be omitted from the planing permission?

    It is an often overlooked facet of Dublins Public Transport,particularly road based,that there are far too many Stops/Halts.

    Dublin Bus,in particular,has pandered to almost everybody with enough breath to make a complaining Phone Call by allocating a Bus Stop to them.

    It needs to be accepted that commensurate with improvements in our PT infrastructure comes a quid-pro-quo that individuals may have to expend a bit of physical energy to avail of a better service...

    After all,it remains of of the National Transport Authority's guiding principles,and one which I think should be used far more in the planning stage.

    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/about-us/our-role-in-public-transport-board/
    The principal functions of the Authority with respect to the GDA are:

    Strategic planning of transport;

    Development of an integrated, accessible public transport network;

    Promoting cycling and walking;

    Provision of public transport infrastructure generally including light rail, metro and heavy rail;

    Effective management of traffic and transport demand.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #937
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    It is an often overlooked facet of Dublins Public Transport,particularly road based,that there are far too many Stops/Halts.

    Hmm, really? that hasn't been my experience with DB. And compared to my experience with busses in London I find the situation is much the same. I think the main difference is that there are too many stops in Dublin's city centre but it is unusual to find a DB bus route that stops at every single stop along it's route once it reaches the city centre. Of course, the problem there is that Dublin's city centre is much smaller than London's and it would be unworkable for - say all the bus routes that go down Dawson Street - to utilise the same stop. At the same time there are few alternatives in terms of routing that would see those same bus routes adequately serve the city centre.


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    #938
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    monument wrote: »
    If I'm recalling correctly, it was a lot more than just business people objecting that caused the stop in one direction to be omitted from the planing permission?
    You're right, it wasn't really businesses, which my post implied. My bad.


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    #939
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    etchyed wrote: »
    You're right, it wasn't really businesses, which my post implied. My bad.

    It's grand -- was more talking about the article only mentioning business and none of the other things ABP outlined as the reasoning for rejecting the stop as first planned.


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    #940
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    It is an often overlooked facet of Dublins Public Transport,particularly road based,that there are far too many Stops/Halts.

    I think the slow speed of boarding, congestion at bus stops, lack of bus priority on important city streets, and funnelling all cross-city buses down a handful of routes are bigger issues.


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    #941
    grimbergen
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭grimbergen


    Good to see the DAwson Street businesses on board - shows some economic good sense when it comes to light rail going past their door. Now if only their counterparts on other streets were as open-minded...


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    #942
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    I think the slow speed of boarding, congestion at bus stops, lack of bus priority on important city streets, and funnelling all cross-city buses down a handful of routes are bigger issues.

    That's why LUAS is the way to go - the Green Line is just as good as metro in terms of ride quality - I just love it. What Dublin needs is more LUAS lines and plenty of P&R sites for motorists coming into the city.

    Go LUAS!!!


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    #943
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,267 ✭✭✭markpb


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    That's why LUAS is the way to go - the Green Line is just as good as metro in terms of ride quality - I just love it. What Dublin needs is more LUAS lines and plenty of P&R sites for motorists coming into the city.

    I'm a huge fan of the Luas but people have to remember that the Green line is not a traditional urban light rail system. It benefits from running on a pre-existing and almost totally segregated train line and not penetrating the city centre so it doesn't suffer from traffic congestion or low priority at junctions. Finding similar ROWs to build new Luas lines on will be very difficult and the result would be more akin to the Red line than the Green line. Luas D will partially manage this but I'm now aware of any other ROWs left in the city.

    As an aside, if I had my way, I'd divert Sigo trains into Heuston and convert part of the Maynooth line to tram. People along the way would be much better served by a frequent Luas than the current infrequent and slow IR suburban service. A quick look at peak frequencies or even Sunday frequencies shows how poorly people along that line are currently served. A comparison of non-express speeds shows that IR are wasting any advantage that heavy rail should offer.


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    #944
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    It's times like these that one rues the fact that the morons in charge of Luas didn't tunnel under the city to broadstone. It would have been beautifully seamless in a way, running onto a dedicated alignment.

    The Green Line could have been a panagea for light rail


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    #945
    Con Logue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 277 ✭✭Con Logue


    donvito99 wrote: »
    It's times like these that one rues the fact that the morons in charge of Luas didn't tunnel under the city to broadstone. It would have been beautifully seamless in a way, running onto a dedicated alignment.

    The Green Line could have been a panagea for light rail

    That was the plan when the two Marys, O'Rourke and Harney butchered the original Luas plans, but it would have been more cost effective to go with a fully segregated underground given the cost of tunnelling. When that was copped on that produced the Metro North plan.


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    #946
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    markpb wrote: »
    I'm a huge fan of the Luas but people have to remember that the Green line is not a traditional urban light rail system. It benefits from running on a pre-existing and almost totally segregated train line and not penetrating the city centre so it doesn't suffer from traffic congestion or low priority at junctions. Finding similar ROWs to build new Luas lines on will be very difficult and the result would be more akin to the Red line than the Green line. Luas D will partially manage this but I'm now aware of any other ROWs left in the city.

    As an aside, if I had my way, I'd divert Sigo trains into Heuston and convert part of the Maynooth line to tram. People along the way would be much better served by a frequent Luas than the current infrequent and slow IR suburban service. A quick look at peak frequencies or even Sunday frequencies shows how poorly people along that line are currently served. A comparison of non-express speeds shows that IR are wasting any advantage that heavy rail should offer.

    The on-street city centre section of Luas is highly successful despite its flaws.

    Modern tram lines in France and other countries can and do mannage to offer great service without using former railway right of ways.

    You just displace what is there now and give strong priority to trams. In Dublin's case the city centre (everything between the canals and maybe further in some cases) would look much like the centre of Amsterdam.

    The Maynooth line is rightly reserved for an upgraded Dart system.


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    #947
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,789 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    monument wrote: »
    markpb wrote: »
    As an aside, if I had my way, I'd divert Sigo trains into Heuston and convert part of the Maynooth line to tram.
    The Maynooth line is rightly reserved for an upgraded Dart system.
    I presume he was talking about the line running alone the canel? It could be an option for Luas but not much point in doing it unless we can find a route for it to continue south of the Liffey.


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    #948
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,686 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    I have one problem with the Luas and that is the O'Connal st junction, the traffic timers are way to long and traffic gets to much time and the Luas only gets a second or two and once one is cleared in most cases the other one won't get cleared unless both are stopped at the junction. The other day one of the trams inbound was cleared and my one went through the because he expected it to change in time but it didn't because he wasn't stopped. Every other junction works fine. We need way more Luas lines.


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    #949
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I presume he was talking about the line running alone the canel? It could be an option for Luas but not much point in doing it unless we can find a route for it to continue south of the Liffey.

    That's where the railway is! :)


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    #950
    Quickelles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 378 ✭✭Quickelles


    Still not sure why BXD is spread across two routes between Parnell Square and College Green.

    Loads of room for two tracks up Westmorland Street, O'Connell Bridge and O'Connell Street.


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    #951
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Is it because they didn't want to sacrifice road space to accomodate luas? I believe that the one track that travels down O'Connell Street uses the central median in parts.


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    #952
    ringostare
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭ringostare


    Quickelles wrote: »
    Still not sure why BXD is spread across two routes between Parnell Square and College Green.

    Loads of room for two tracks up Westmorland Street, O'Connell Bridge and O'Connell Street.

    Clearly they're all thick in the RPA and the idea never occured to them.


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    #953
    nowecant
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭nowecant


    ringostare wrote: »
    Clearly they're all thick in the RPA and the idea never occured to them.

    Not really very constructive ringostare, I may not agree with the RPA on all their decisions but they are clearly not all thick. A lot of factors go into the design of these routes.

    Personally I would have sent both tracks up Marlborough street. I think it offers a lot more advantages.

    • Closer interchange with red line stop
    • Open up the area for redevelopment
    • Use of the new bridge, saving O'Connell bridge for increased pedestrianisation
    • Remove cars from the street to encourage shops/cafe
    • No interruption to O'Connell street
    • Easier construction.

    The line will already interchange with the proposed Metro north and dart underground at St Stephens Green so it does not need to follow the metro for 3 or so stops.

    Anyway its not going to be changed now. Apparently work is to start in the coming weeks


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    #954
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,789 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The reason for splitting Luas BXD and having tracks on both O'Connell Street and Malborough Street is because Dublin Bus bitched that it would affect them too much and our politicians dont like to piss off senior civil servants. Luas should use one street and DB the other. ABP should have put a stop to this madness when approving the Railway Order. DB should be told to redesign their network, post BXD there will be no need for them to funnel almost every service down O'Connell Street, they should have more feeder services to the Luas network and also orbital routes which cannot be served by rail. Again, the problem is political and CIE executive and unions wont accept any diminishing of their role, despite the fact that they rely on massive subsidies every year and the changes would be very beneficial to those who provide the cash for these subsidies - the taxpayer. The non-elected have too much power in this country.


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    #955
    nowecant
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭nowecant


    In case no one has seen this there is an interesting, but old, fantasy thread about how the luas might be extended to Finglas,

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056158305


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    #956
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The reason for splitting Luas BXD and having tracks on both O'Connell Street and Malborough Street is because Dublin Bus bitched that it would affect them too much and our politicians dont like to piss off senior civil servants.

    In fairness it would severely impact DB if they were restricted to one lane each way on O'Connell Street what with the number of stops along this street. They have a point. This must be the reason why halfway up O'Connell Street the tram deviates onto the central median. I assume all stops prior to this point will be moved upwards to the Parnell Street end of O'Connell Street.


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    #957
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Two lanes of traffic northbound on OCS is vital in comparison to southbound as it stands. I can't think of how else the Parnell st/sq can be conveniently accessed from the quays.


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    #958
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Two lanes of traffic northbound on OCS is vital in comparison to southbound as it stands. I can't think of how else the Parnell st/sq can be conveniently accessed from the quays.

    253107.JPG


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    #959
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    monument wrote: »
    253107.JPG

    Wasn't thinking about Jervis for some reason. It would definitely need upgrade to be on a par though.


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    #960
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    nowecant wrote: »
    Not really very constructive ringostare
    I think you missed some sarcasm.


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    #961
    nowecant
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭nowecant


    etchyed wrote: »
    I think you missed some sarcasm.

    I did not miss the sarcasm, i just don't think its very constructive. I think we have a baby troll here. Evidence can be seen in the users only other posts.


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