Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

cgcsb

foggy_lad wrote: »

There will be no dart underground or airport dart, they were all bertie pipe dreams when they were all smoking the whacky baccy in the Dail bar. Rail to Navan and the Luas to Broombridge is all we can expect our German overlords to pay for.

DART underground was originally planned when Bertie was but a child.

The DART spur to the airport can't happen for capacity reasons and I wouldn't hold my breath for Navan, the planned route passes west of Dunshaughlan instead of to the east where it could have served Ratoath and Dunshaughlan, getting maximum value for money, but no.

foggy_lad

cgcsb wrote: »

DART underground was originally planned when Bertie was but a child.

The DART spur to the airport can't happen for capacity reasons and I wouldn't hold my breath for Navan, the planned route passes west of Dunshaughlan instead of to the east where it could have served Ratoath and Dunshaughlan, getting maximum value for money, but no.

Can the planned route to Navan not be changed to include as many commuters as possible to ensure the line is more than just a political white elephant?

cgcsb

foggy_lad wrote: »

Can the planned route to Navan not be changed to include as many commuters as possible to ensure the line is more than just a political white elephant?

I think they already have a railway order. So no. I'm not sure though.

Zebra3

foggy_lad wrote: »

our German overlords to pay for.

They don't pay for anything. :rolleyes:

nowecant

lxflyer wrote: »

Proposed traffic arrangements for St Stephen's Green:

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/MajorTransportProjects/Pages/ProposedTrafficManagementworksonSaintStephensGreenEastandSaintStephensGreenNorthDublin2.aspx

Link broken, check out

Proposed Traffic Management works on St. Stephen’s Green East and St Stephen’s Green North, Dublin 2 to facilitate LUAS Broombridge

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

DART underground was originally planned when Bertie was but a child.

The DART spur to the airport can't happen for capacity reasons and I wouldn't hold my breath for Navan, the planned route passes west of Dunshaughlan instead of to the east where it could have served Ratoath and Dunshaughlan, getting maximum value for money, but no.

Not true. When the city centre resignalling project is ever completed it most certainly would be possible to operate DART to the Airport.

If the Howth service became an off-peak shuttle to/from Howth Junction it could actually work with the existing signalling - it would need a timetable recast of course.

L1011

Why would people use a train service that'd be slower than the express buses though?

That proposal was just CIE trying to justify getting some shiney baubles, basically.

AngryLips

MYOB wrote: »

Why would people use a train service that'd be slower than the express buses though?

That proposal was just CIE trying to justify getting some shiney baubles, basically.

Well services from Houston to airport would probably be faster than the airlink

donvito99

AngryLips wrote: »

Houston

Heuston, we have a problem.:D

etchyed

MYOB wrote: »

Why would people use a train service that'd be slower than the express buses though?

Because they live on the line, maybe?

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

Not true. When the city centre resignalling project is ever completed it most certainly would be possible to operate DART to the Airport.

If the Howth service became an off-peak shuttle to/from Howth Junction it could actually work with the existing signalling - it would need a timetable recast of course.

The resignalling project will provide an extra 4 train paths per hour, offering a maximum of 4 trains per hour to the airport with no opportunity for expansion. This would also cause unreasonable disruption to Howth services and would destroy plans to increase the frequency of the Belfast Enterprise service. The cost would be about 200mil, and the journey time via the proposed DART route would be slower than normal bus services to the City Centre, with express bus services hammering it in journey times.

In short you'd be spending 200mil for no actual benefits.

AngryLips

cgcsb wrote: »

The resignalling project will provide an extra 4 train paths per hour, offering a maximum of 4 trains per hour to the airport with no opportunity for expansion. This would also cause unreasonable disruption to Howth services and would destroy plans to increase the frequency of the Belfast Enterprise service. The cost would be about 200mil, and the journey time via the proposed DART route would be slower than normal bus services to the City Centre, with express bus services hammering it in journey times.

In short you'd be spending 200mil for no actual benefits.

What is the restriction on Enterprise hourly frequencies at the moment? Is it to do with capacity constraints at the IR end or the NIR end? And how many per-hour slots does the Howth service take? Presumably these could be freed up with a Howth shuttle service instead? Added to the additional 4 paths that you speak of from the resignalling...

Ideally an hourly Enterprise should serve the airport via a delta junction at the airport spur.

loyatemu

AngryLips wrote: »

Ideally an hourly Enterprise should serve the airport via a delta junction at the airport spur.

this is a pretty good idea, as it would serve Dundalk, Drogheda and the north.

Building a line just to run a shuttle to Connolly or Pearse would be a serious waste of money when the Port Tunnel has already facilitated quick and frequent bus services to the airport.

cgcsb

AngryLips wrote: »

What is the restriction on Enterprise hourly frequencies at the moment? Is it to do with capacity constraints at the IR end or the NIR end? And how many per-hour slots does the Howth service take? Presumably these could be freed up with a Howth shuttle service instead? Added to the additional 4 paths that you speak of from the resignalling...

The IR end. Howth takes 43 slots per day. the hour rate varies. Typically two or three per hour. You'd just be spending 200 mil to move the problem around, metro provides brand new capacity and lots of it.

I agree there should be main line access to the airport also though. A new high quality line should take the Belfast line westwards south of Drogheda to serve the airport, continue south in tunnel to liffey junction and through the Park to Heuston station and on to Cork, in order to facilitate an Express Belfast Central-Newry-Dundalk-Drogheda-Dublin Airport-Dublin Connolly-Portarlington-Limerick Junction-Cork Kent service. This would mean the existing DART line would be freed up for only DART services, with frequencies up to 5 minutes and half the population of the Island of Ireland would be circa 2 hours or less from the airport by rail. It would also mean the Cork and Belfast Services no longer terminate in Dublin, freeing up buckets of terminal capacity in Heuston and Connolly.

Irish and Proud

lxflyer wrote: »

Not true. When the city centre resignalling project is ever completed it most certainly would be possible to operate DART to the Airport.

If the Howth service became an off-peak shuttle to/from Howth Junction it could actually work with the existing signalling - it would need a timetable recast of course.

I have a very clear idea of the direction Dublin should take regarding rail. I think we should focus on achieving a complete DART and Luas system for the city - that means 3 DART lines and 3 Luas lines including a completion of the line to Finglas. Now, I can't really mention how I'd go about raising capital - I've been warned on the subject, and having read the charter I just won't go there.

Now back to the physical infrastructure itself, the DART underground is a must as it would be the main engine behind the DART expansion programme. The first phase would involve the construction of the interconnector with an interim Line from Hazelhatch to Clontarf Road. This would be called the Heuston Line and would have a frequency of 6 minutes to as far as Spencer Dock and 12 minutes to as far as a new interchange at Clontarf Road. The Current Dart Line would be called the Bay Line (for the interim) and would interchange with the Heuston Line at both Pearse and Clontarf Road.

Now, the next phase I have in mind would probably be very controversial here, but I think it's the right thing to do. The backbone of the second phase involves the construction of a tunnel from Clontarf (around the golf course area) to North of Coolock on what was the N32. From there, two surface lines would be constructed, one to the airport and one to Malahide. There would be no stations in the tunnel itself as this route would also handle the Enterprise. There would however be stations at Coolock (Coolock Junction), off the M1/M50 interchange (M1 Parkway) and in the Airport itself. There would also be an interchange station at Malahide.

Upon completion, this route would allow the implementation of the Coolock Line - a line that would run from Inchicore Station through the interconnector to Coolock Junction - the frequency would be 6 minutes to that point - the interconnector can supposedly accommadate a headway of 3 minutes thereby allowing both the Heuston and Coolock lines to share the tunnel - each with a frequency of 6 minutes. The Clontarf to Coolock Tunnel would also accommodate 20 trains per hour per direction thereby allowing slots for extra trains such as the Enterprise and Northern Commuter. The Coolock Dart Line would split after Coolock Junction with branches to both the Airport and Balbriggan - both with a frequency of 12 minutes.

With the Coolock Dart Line in place, the Bay Dart Line would be split (as is currently the plan), but with the Heuston Line extended to Howth/Malahide (interchange with the Coolock Line) and the remaining southern section of the Bay Line rerouted to Maynooth/Dunboyne - this would then be known as the Connolly Dart Line. This line would have a frequency of 6 minutes as would be the case with all three Dart Lines - aside from branches. Pearse would be the main interchange station as is currently the plan. Having studied the London Underground, I would however, include a direct escalator link between the two DART mainlines thereby bypassing all ticket halls completely and significatly reducing pedestrian conflict.

I'll get to the Luas later...

FreudianSlippers

To me, the DART should be what it was intended to be: Rapid transport around the Dublin area. This, to me, means it should serve the Greater Dublin Area along the major motorways as an alternative to driving in - to swords, Ashbourne, Blanchardstown, Maynooth... Spurring out the major arteries to a major hub (Connelly / Heuston) then the Luas deals with transport within the city; slower and with more frequent stops.

It just makes sense to me for it to operate that way.

strassenwo!f

cgcsb wrote: »

DART underground was originally planned when Bertie was but a child.

No, that's not true.

There was an East-West line proposed across the city, but it was very much a line linking Connolly and Heuston via Temple Bar. Not via Pearse, and not via St Stephen's Green, and with quite different arrangements in Inchicore.That was around 1975.

There are similarities between the proposals in the 1970s and the DTO's crayon plans of the early years of this century. But I think many people would struggle to see them as the same project.

LeinsterDub

Just looking at the map there . I know BXD does more than link up the 2 lines but does anyone else feel the distance between the Stephen's Green and the Westmoreland stop is far too great north bound according to Google maps it's an 10 minute walk between them and more importantly it also means for large sections between these 2 stops the Luas will be no closer in 2017 than today.

For example from

Merrion Square to Westmoreland 14 min
Merrion Square to the Green 16 min

AngryLips

I thought there is a stop on Dawson Street?

Peregrine

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Just looking at the map there . I know BXD does more than link up the 2 lines but does anyone else feel the distance between the Stephen's Green and the Westmoreland stop is far too great north bound according to Google maps it's an 10 minute walk between them and more importantly it also means for large sections between these 2 stops the Luas will be no closer in 2017 than today.

For example from

Merrion Square to Westmoreland 14 min
Merrion Square to the Green 16 min

There's actually a stop on Dawson. Not having a stop between St Stephen's Green and Westmoreland Street would be stupid.

Here's the route: http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Luas%20BXD/Luas%20Cross%20City%20PDF%20Route%20Maps/LuasCrossCity_VectorRouteMap_230113_V3.pdf

OssianSmyth

The Northbound Dawson St stop was deleted by Bord Pleanala due to busy pedestrian footpath and interference with bus stops.

LeinsterDub

The proposed stop on Dawson Street will comprise a single southbound stop platform located between Dawson Lane and Nassau Street and close to Trinity College. The originally planned northbound (Broombridge direction) stop platform will not now be constructed as a result of a condition imposed by An Bord Pleanála in granting a Railway Order for the project.

http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/luas_city_broombridge/Pages/default.aspx

Peregrine

Oh god I didn't see that, that's not good.

A northbound stop was important, at least a southbound stop will still be built.

LeinsterDub

Is there any reason they can't have a central stop in the middle of the road ?

lucernarian

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is there any reason they can't have a central stop in the middle of the road ?

Was the reason because of crowd levels at the stop which a central island alone wouldn't be able to handle? It's unfortunate that such an island couldn't be provided, it somewhat diminishes the impact of having the connector built in the first place.

monument

This is a perception problem and nothing more....

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Just looking at the map there . I know BXD does more than link up the 2 lines but does anyone else feel the distance between the Stephen's Green and the Westmoreland stop is far too great north bound according to Google maps it's an 10 minute walk between them and more importantly it also means for large sections between these 2 stops the Luas will be no closer in 2017 than today.

For example from

Merrion Square to Westmoreland 14 min
Merrion Square to the Green 16 min

Google puts the walk from Merrion Square East to St Stephen's Green west at the Luas stop at 13mins.

The walk to the centre of Dawson Street is also 13mins.

I've already shown in this thread (or another?) that there's also little or no diffrence between St Stephen's Green and Dawson Street when it comes to walking distance from popular locations west of Grafton Street.

lucernarian

Forgive the anecdote! In 2007 I switched from Luas to the then new 128 bus route in Rathmines partially for the convenience factor, to reach the eastern end of TCD. That is a popular destination in itself. The bus brought me to bottom of Dawson St. Luas left me at the Green. It saved me a few minutes in the rain in the morning which is always nice, though the bus route could be unpredictable.

It's not a big problem, but it does take away from one of the better aspects of this section of the proposed Luas.

Jamie2k9

Does anybody else think that leaving out the Dawson Street northbound stop will in time turn into why wasn't the green and red lines connected from the start suituation.

From sombody who knows very little about the project but is the reason why northbound and southbound tracks split, is it down to layout of city or is their something else behind it?

etchyed

Apparently, businesses on Dawson Street are now in favour of a northbound stop.

Irish Times - National Transport Authority hoping to reinstate Luas stop on Dawson Street

monument

etchyed wrote: »

Apparently, businesses on Dawson Street are now in favour of a northbound stop.

Irish Times - National Transport Authority hoping to reinstate Luas stop on Dawson Street

If I'm recalling correctly, it was a lot more than just business people objecting that caused the stop in one direction to be omitted from the planing permission?