Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Quickelles

monument wrote: »

The real important things are reliability and frequency. Speed is nearly secondary if those are not right. Luas beats Dublin Bus on reliability and frequency.

Frequency in its self can add to the over all speed of a person's journey.

And with the issue of reliability: It's better for people to know that most trams will (give or take a small bit) take 30mins, rather than that some buses will take 20mins but that often others may take closer to 40mins.

I have seen evidence of this on my own doorstep, so to speak. The luas (Green extension) along Ballyogan Rd attracts large numbers people many walking from two km away (Kilternan, Stepaside, Belarmine - the whole western side of Sandyford).

Previously the 44/44b which ran past their doors were half empty even at rush hour while people drove to work or drove down to the 46A QBC.

Today the 44 and the new (originally) "high frequency" 47 trundle around almost totally empty past people walking to the luas (and the 47 is partially a luas connector!)

(It is these type of routes that could really benefit from the "real time" signs but catch 22; there are not enough passengers to justify them; there are not enough passengers because the routes are not frequent and reliable enough)

But build a luas line and they will come......;)

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Giving Dublin a "heart attack" might be a good thing. A shock to the system can be positive. Heart attack victims can go onto recover if they can change their ways.

Pushing so many buses into the artery that is College Green to Parnell Square is madness and the main reason for doing so seems to be the apparent need not to affect motorists on other routes. If it takes adding BXD to the mix to save the patient, so be it!

markpb wrote: »

There's nothing wedding DB to their current city centre corridor, they can always move (with the assistance of the city council, of course).

And in fact, since the time for objections and changes of mind has passed, DB will have to start planning for this. Luas BXD is going that way for better or for worse. DB can protest and complain or they can be proactive and start finding alternative routes.

Would it be churlish to point out that the route for BXD was being decided when DB were planning their network reorganisation? Some of those cross city routes were created when DB knew they would eventually face disruption from BXD.

And what about the significantly greater number of passengers that those Dublin Bus routes carry over the LUAS lines?

Would it not occur to either of you that maybe the bus routes go the way that they do because that is where the majority of people travelling into the city want to go to?

Don't forget that DB put considerable effort into assessing where people were travelling to and from before implementing the Network Direct changes took place.

As a bus user who doesn't have any other alternative, I find these regular comments of "let's just move the bus routes" highly annoying. It's almost as if buses should be swept under the carpet, despite the fact that for a very significant number of people they are the only public transport option available (I am excluding cycling from that).

AngryLips

Could Capel Street be turned into a two way public transport corridor or maybe Capel St/Jervis St be used, one for one way traffic and another for traffic in the opposite direction for busses only as an alternative for some of the routes using O'Connell St?

TheDB

markpb wrote: »

There's nothing wedding DB to their current city centre corridor, they can always move (with the assistance of the city council, of course).

And in fact, since the time for objections and changes of mind has passed, DB will have to start planning for this. Luas BXD is going that way for better or for worse. DB can protest and complain or they can be proactive and start finding alternative routes.

Would it be churlish to point out that the route for BXD was being decided when DB were planning their network reorganisation? Some of those cross city routes were created when DB knew they would eventually face disruption from BXD.

According to the rurmors DB were told by the government to fock-off with any objections.

According to reliable sources, the State-owned company was told in advance by the Department of Transport it should not object to the Luas link because it is part of the Transport 21 investment programme, adopted in 2005.

http://buckplanning.blogspot.ie/2011/08/luas-link-would-delay-buses-says.html

I had a look and the Environmental Impact Statement did a poor job on describing the effects of bxd on traffic flows.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

And what about the significantly greater number of passengers that those Dublin Bus routes carry over the LUAS lines?[

I'm not suggesting "buses should be swept under the carpet".

But proportionally to the amount of routes of each Luas carries far more people. Luas can also excel bridging the gaps in the city centre and the gaps in the public transport network in a way Dublin Bus as it current runs can't -- as Luas has a larger capacity, people are more willing to switch to its higher frequency services, and is better for less regular users.

lxflyer wrote: »

Would it not occur to either of you that maybe the bus routes go the way that they do because that is where the majority of people travelling into the city want to go to?

Sure, but there has to be a balance with the use of space and there are clear questions over the effectiveness of sending so many routes down that core spine.

lxflyer wrote: »

Don't forget that DB put considerable effort into assessing where people were travelling to and from before implementing the Network Direct changes took place.

They we also restrained by the current road set up and the lack of wiliness to of the city to have vision and disrupt the movements of private cars in order to give buses (and trams, cyclists and walkers) a clearer run at getting about the place.

TheDB

monument wrote: »

I'm not suggesting "buses should be swept under the carpet".

But proportionally to the amount of routes of each Luas carries far more people. Luas can also excel bridging the gaps in the city centre and the gaps in the public transport network in a way Dublin Bus as it current runs can't -- as Luas has a larger capacity, people are more willing to switch to its higher frequency services, and is better for less regular users.

That dosn't make sense. Luas bxd will only service a short commuter route between O'Connell St and Broombridge but yet it is disrupting cross city bus routes for the whole of the city.

donvito99

TheDB wrote: »

That dosn't make sense. Luas bxd will only service a short commuter route between O'Connell St and Broombridge but yet it is disrupting cross city bus routes for the whole of the city.

:rolleyes:

Richard Logue

TheDB wrote: »

That dosn't make sense. Luas bxd will only service a short commuter route between O'Connell St and Broombridge but yet it is disrupting cross city bus routes for the whole of the city.

I remember hearing this sort of argument when the original Green and Red lines were being built. We were told that the Luas would be a white elephant that would do nothing for the city other than disrupt traffic and business. Garrett Fitzgerald even declared the curves in the lines at one point in town as a hazard, much trumpeted by the press, especially the Indo at that time.

And what happened? It opened, it was a success, and the nay sayers shrank away.

I expect the same will happen again.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Don't forget that DB put considerable effort into assessing where people were travelling to and from before implementing the Network Direct changes took place.

Without taking away from any of your other valid points, DB still reorganised their network knowing that it would, very shortly, conflict with Luas BXD. So either they hoped it wouldn't go ahead, believed it wouldn't have the negative impact being suggested here, don't see any alternative routes or don't care. I'm honestly not sure which of those it is.

monument

TheDB wrote: »

That dosn't make sense. Luas bxd will only service a short commuter route between O'Connell St and Broombridge but yet it is disrupting cross city bus routes for the whole of the city.

Luas: Cherrywood <> Cabra / Ashtown / South Finglas (~20km)
Train + Luas: D15 <> Broombridge <> South city centre (10-15km)
Luas + Luas: Tallaght <> Phibsborough (~12km)
Luas + Luas: Docklands <> Sandyford (~10km)
Train + Luas: D15 <> Sandyford (24km)
Dart + Luas: Malahide <> Sandyford (24km)

Etc.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Without taking away from any of your other valid points, DB still reorganised their network knowing that it would, very shortly, conflict with Luas BXD. So either they hoped it wouldn't go ahead, believed it wouldn't have the negative impact being suggested here, don't see any alternative routes or don't care. I'm honestly not sure which of those it is.

Ok Mark, so you change a network and remove buses from the one area of the city centre that the vast majority of people want to go to, based on the possibility of a LUAS line being built at some time in the future, and well in advance of any alternatives being put in place. That doesn't sound to me like good planning.

I'm sure some routes will end up being diverted, but you don't remove services before alternatives are in place.

For me I feel that the negative impact on a far greater number of bus passengers did not get the recognition that it deserves in the whole planning process. This should have been outlined in the plans, rather than vague comments about stops being removed and routes diverted.

It shows a complete lack of regard for the far larger number of passengers that will be negatively impacted by this line - hardly surprising. Politicians see anything on rails as fantastic. They conveniently ignore the fact that the 69 bus is faster than the LUAS from Red Cow to the city and the fact that the bus is faster from Heuston Station to the city centre. The fact that the 90 and 145 are packed leaving Heuston every morning shows that buses remain an integral part of our public transport and will remain so.

LXFlyer

Perhaps Monument and markpb you might both like to outline which specific routes you would change in the context of BXD. It would be interesting to see what you consider as potential options?

This isn't a trick question - genuinely interested in what you think here.

Oasis_Dublin

The next step, in my opinion, in making DART/Luas/bus attractive to the public is having one ticket that would be valid on all services. The leap card is a step in the right direction, but it's still not enough. From 2017 onwards, I'll be able to go from Phibsborough to Howth on public transport. I'll need to get two different tickets however (or have two different return fares taken from my Leap Card balance).

I'm sure someone will tell me that I can already go between those two places by getting two different buses. But the point is that the whole system should be integrated, to encourage people to use public transport ala Vancouver.

Are there plans to expand the leap card capping, which currently exists only the luas (as far as I'm aware), to the DART and Dublin Bus?

LXFlyer

One would hope that by 2017 multi-mode pay-as-you-go fares will be in operation.

Monthly and annual bus/LUAS/rail tickets already exist.

Irish Rail capping is starting this month and Dublin Bus later this year.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Perhaps Monument and markpb you might both like to outline which specific routes you would change in the context of BXD. It would be interesting to see what you consider as potential options?

This isn't a trick question - genuinely interested in what you think here.

An example Route 40 without the O'Connell Street section: Under the conditions of being able to add strong bus priority to a number of streets (which in fairness I've already said Dublin Bus can't do).

~3.9km = red / current
~3.6km = yellow / quays - Church St
~4km = blue / Gardiner St - Tara St
~2.2km = purple / Parliament St - quays - Church St



I'd go with the purple route.

I'd do corridor studies and include the possibility of cutting current cross city routes in half and joining them up with others.

Oasis_Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

Monthly and annual bus/LUAS/rail tickets already exist.

Are they just the tax saver ones?

I was more thinking along the lines of Vancouver, where a single ticket gives you 90 minutes of transport on any of the city's public transport (bus, metro, boat) utilities.

LXFlyer

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Are they just the tax saver ones?

I was more thinking along the lines of Vancouver, where a single ticket gives you 90 minutes of transport on any of the city's public transport (bus, metro, boat) utilities.

They are the taxsaver tickets (which can also be bought outside the scheme.

You have to remember that LEAP is being rolled out in phases, and later phases will introduce multi-mode capping. Single operator capping is being rolled out this year.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

An example Route 40 without the O'Connell Street section: Under the conditions of being able to add strong bus priority to a number of streets (which in fairness I've already said Dublin Bus can't do).

~3.9km = red / current
~3.6km = yellow / quays - Church St
~4km = blue / Gardiner St - Tara St
~2.2km = purple / Parliament St - quays - Church St



I'd go with the purple route.

I'd do corridor studies and include the possibility of cutting current cross city routes in half and joining them up with others.

An initial observation is that the 40 doesn't serve Phibsboro - it goes via Whitworth Road!!

lucernarian

Richard Logue wrote: »

I remember hearing this sort of argument when the original Green and Red lines were being built. We were told that the Luas would be a white elephant that would do nothing for the city other than disrupt traffic and business. Garrett Fitzgerald even declared the curves in the lines at one point in town as a hazard, much trumpeted by the press, especially the Indo at that time.

And what happened? It opened, it was a success, and the nay sayers shrank away.

I expect the same will happen again.

I can appreciate the sentiment but there are a number of dubious assertations being made here. The red line and BXD are firstly hard to compare and certainly if we look at the impact on bus routes which only shared road space with the Luas (as opposed to crossing it like on O'Connell St. currently) then it's basically limited to the 13/40/123 and at a push the Clontarf based routes like the 130 etc. Given that there was plenty of space in the city centre for buses after the red line was built, it wasn't hard to move the 37s etc to Hawkins st. from Abbey St. By taking Marlborough St, much of Parnell Square and College St. out of the equation, the impact is much greater.

Also, talking about traffic disruption and naysayers here is a bit of a straw man. The issue now being raised in the thread is a very specific and complicated one, limited to the impact on buses. If extra bus prioritisation was on the horizon in the vicinity of the city centre, congestion concerns probably wouldn't apply here. We know that the Bus Gate measure on College Green has brought about consistent peak time improvements for routes that use this stretch. I think we can safely infer that removing the freed capacity for buses will have the opposite effect. Unless the buses take a different route of course.

Now monument's example is a little disingenuous as the shared space with BXD is quite limited in comparison to e.g. the 11 or 46a routes. The latter having the single most number of buses dedicated to serving it on the BAC network. I'm welcome to suggestions that do not compromise either BXD or Dublin Bus but without e.g. building a road through trinity's cricket pitch I am failing to see how this will happen.

It might be fine to say that BAC management should adapt to this more proactively but firstly, the serious disruption won't be happening till what, 2015? That's a long time before more changes have to be made and DB needed cost savings asap at the time. Secondly, their failings should not be used as an excuse to promote the permanent prioritisation of commuters using one form of mass transit and especially those who can live near Luas vs those who do not over another. That "prioritisation" would be negated with several concerted efforts on the part of BAC and Dublin City Council but are we going to see the traffic signal sequences changed to aid in this? Or the removal of more parking (e.g. capel st) at the weeping and gnashing of teeth of local traders? Or substantial reconfigurations in one-way systems? While DCC's reluctance to do this is not necessarily a reason to "blame" BXD, the intrinsic aspects of our narrow streets and efforts to promote increased pedestrian and cycling access would mean that the cross-city bus routes would have to lose out in this.

monument

Corrected:

An example Route 40 without the O'Connell Street section: Under the conditions of being able to add strong bus priority to a number of streets (which in fairness I've already said Dublin Bus can't do).

~4.5km = red / current
~4.7km = yellow / quays - Church St
~4.5km = blue / Gardiner St - Tara St
~3.7km = purple / Parliament St - quays - Church St
~4.5km = orange / Gardiner St - Tara St - Summerhill - Mountjoy Place



And again: I'd also do corridor studies and include the possibility of cutting current cross city routes in half and joining them up with others.

monument

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Now monument's example is a little disingenuous as the shared space with BXD is quite limited in comparison to e.g. the 11 or 46a routes. The latter having the single most number of buses dedicated to serving it on the BAC network. I'm welcome to suggestions that do not compromise either BXD or Dublin Bus but without e.g. building a road through trinity's cricket pitch I am failing to see how this will happen.

OK!

46a and 11 options in blue, core section of current 46a in red:



But looking at other routes is not "disingenuous" by looking at removing other routes from the core spine, you then may be able to avoid moving routes like the 48a from that spine. But I think the 48a could greatly benefit from being removed from that spine -- people going to some areas may be or feel displaces but large amounts of people going to areas like the Docklands would have the 48a moved closer to their work place, others would benefit from the bypassing of the congested spine, and others would benefit from what could be the best bus-rail connection in Dublin on Westland Row etc.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Secondly, their failings should not be used as an excuse to promote the permanent prioritisation of commuters using one form of mass transit...

It's not about the prioritisation of one mode of public transport. Nobody benefits if there's too much on the one corridor.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Or substantial reconfigurations in one-way systems?

Yes! The system does need reconfiguration!

There's already good cycling and walking related reasons to do so, and creating bus corridors that deserve the name quality is another good reason.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

While DCC's reluctance to do this is not necessarily a reason to "blame" BXD, the intrinsic aspects of our narrow streets and efforts to promote increased pedestrian and cycling access would mean that the cross-city bus routes would have to lose out in this.

[1] I don't buy that we have such narrow streets compared to some cities around the same size as Dublin and more so I don't think the size of the streets are a problem -- the real problem is how we use those streets and the massive reluctance to push space for cars out of the way to make room for buses, cyclists, and pedestrians.

[2] Cross-city bus routes can gain.

nowecant

Article about the Georgian cellars that have to be filled in as part of the construction of the Luas Cross City. (Pics in article)

http://www.thejournal.ie/georgian-cellars-dublin-908479-May2013/

Georgian cellars to be filled in during Luas Cross City construction

The Irish Georgian Society described the move as a “further erosion” of the context of Dublin’s Georgian heritage.

GEORGIAN CELLARS ARE to be filled in as part of the construction of the Luas Cross City line.

Donough Cahill, executive director of the Irish Georgian Society (IGS), told TheJournal.ie that the move was a “further erosion” of the context of Dublin’s Georgian heritage.

The cellars under today’s pavements were used during the Georgian era (which spanned 1714 – 1830), and typically held coal. The coal was poured in using openings on the streets, which are still visible today.

Photo13

Photo: Railway Procurement Agency

Dublin City Council (DCC) has been told by the Railway Procurement Agency that as part of the Luas Cross City works, the cellars will be filled in. Before this takes place, they will be excavated by archaeologists and the information they gather will be fully recorded.

The work will begin following building condition surveys. Among the areas where the cellars are located are Marlborough St, and Parnell St. Work is being rolled out as part of the Luas Cross City works and DCC was informed about the plans at this week’s central area committee meeting.

The works will include the investigation and infilling of cellars along the route. The cellars are coal bunkers or vaulted cellars associated with Georgian buildings around the city, and though in some instances such cellars have been demolished, others are lying empty or being used as storage units.

Around 300 properties have been surveyed as part of the preparation for the Luas Cross Line construction and 25 known cellars will be impacted by the works – but there are potentially 400 unknown cellars, the council was told.

The cellars will be filled in to house utilities that need to be kept out of the way of the Luas track.

26

Photo: Railway Procurement Agency

The IGS’s Cahill told TheJournal.ie said that “sadly it’s something that happened beforehand, when the previous Luas track was being built on Harcourt St”. He said that the justification for it at the time was that it was necessary to provide support for the increased loads that were going be going over the area.

Cahill said the cellar infilling was “a further erosion” of the context of these 18th century cellars, which represent a very specific time in Irish history.

During the planning process, the IGS made a submission regarding the proposed Luas route. “The focus of our submission was on the impact of the overhead power cables,” said Cahill. The society said that as College Green is “one of the principal set pieces of Dublin city” in terms of its architectural significance, its importance as a world heritage city would be compromised by overhead power cables.

The society suggested the use of underground cables. Permission was granted for overhead power cables on the Luas line, which is similar to what was used when trams first ran in the city. “It’s not a modern phenomenon,” pointed out Cahill.

Photo 1

Photo: Railway Procurement Agency

The IGS welcomes the introduction of an improved transport system in Dublin, particularly the joining of the existing Luas lines, but Cahill said he believes that every effort should be made to ensure that impact of the Luas is minimised.

He added that though many of the cellars are not used now, potentially a use could have been found for them in the future.

Richard Logue

Amazing how all these negative stories are coming out of the woodwork now that construction is about to start. :rolleyes:

So the cellars will be used for utilities and they'll be filled in? How's that work Ted?

nowecant

They have also launched a new website for the project. Parts of it are ok but it still lacks information. http://www.luascrosscity.ie/

My main issue with this construction is the lack of info regarding the final proposed traffic alignments in Dublin. Ive just read that Dominic Street is to be made one way southbound, but i only found this by accident. Is there not someplace where they are advertising how traffic in Dublin will be permanently affected?

Neither http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie or the new website http://www.luascrosscity.ie/ seem to have much info on it

Quickelles

Richard Logue wrote: »

Amazing how all these negative stories are coming out of the woodwork now that construction is about to start. :rolleyes:

Best just ignore them. They ain't going to stop BXD now!

Nothing is EVER built in Ireland without someone whining.

varberg

Could the pipes not have been placed in these cellars? What a cool tourist attraction that has the potential to be.Dubs answer to the paris catacombs.

The new luas is needed, but surely it should keep going north to the airport.

Quickelles

varberg wrote: »

The new luas is needed, but surely it should keep going north to the airport.

Not enough capacity for the airport link.

Oasis_Dublin

Surely they can keep once of the cellars open somewhere, and open them up to the public? At the moment, the guy from the Georgian Society seems to be suggesting that we should reroute the Luas because the cellars might be used in the future for some purpose, or other. Keep one, and let's get on with filling in the rest. Rather than arguing to keep them all, and then not being able to keep any.

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

[1] I don't buy that we have such narrow streets compared to some cities around the same size as Dublin and more so I don't think the size of the streets are a problem -- the real problem is how we use those streets and the massive reluctance to push space for cars out of the way to make room for buses, cyclists, and pedestrians.

[2] Cross-city bus routes can gain.

I thought this was obvious but I shall assume you know what a bottleneck is, and that I don't need to explain the concept further. I don't know why you're relativising this, either the streets we have available are fit for carrying more bus lanes or they're not. What exists in other cities is almost completely irrelevant, i.e. that the amount of cross-city bus services we run are not going to be adequately carried by the alternative streets unless they are moved rather substantially away from the city centre. Even if we have wide streets (e.g. Dame st), that corridor is (at Lord Edward St.) nothing more than a somewhat wide 2 lane road.

With the "options" above, we're talking about moving 3.5 km of the busiest bus route in dublin away from the central business district (albeit closer to Connolly and IFSC) - and I accept the above was but one alternative. But it has to be recognised that Luas BXD will prove detrimental to the Dublin Bus modus operandi as it stands. I don't automatically think it will be bad for Dublin transport or even public bus transport as a whole but I think it's only fair for the likes of ixflyer to raise concerns about how this benefits some people far more than others and not be dismissed out of hand for saying so. Also, some of those options are iffy in that like with current bus routes, they need to also take into account the likely one-way systems that exist. E.g. how would turning right from Tara St. onto Pearse St. work? And where will all those cars that the Gardai use for their operations go and so on.

There's enough work for a PhD in designing buses, trams and cycling routes to coexist throughout Dublin and I hope that we can at least not indulge in "my mode of transport is better than your mode"-esque stuff.

One other thing - I think the most important transport corridors in Dublin need to allow for usage by many modes (provided there is not a capacity cost I suppose). Otherwise, of course it would lead to the permanent prioritsation of one mode over another. Will there be much allowance for buses to e.g. drive up Grafton St. when there is no tram in the way? I suspect not.

TheDB

Rerouting buses from O'Connell Street and college green is a non-starter - that is where people want to go. If you don't make Public Transport easy for people they simply won't use it.