Young Pregnant Woman murder-suicide

bhamsteve · 17-04-2013 11:50AM

The mirror article linked to is as clear as mud. States she stabbed the husband, then goes on to say that she was approached by police investigating the stabbing of a man , by another man, in the street. Then it is the husband being stabbed inside the house? Something doesn't add up.

If it was reported to the police that it was her that had stabbed her husband, and they left after speaking to her on the intercom, serious questions need to be asked.

My heart goes out to the father of the kids, it is a parents worst nightmare

Catphish · 17-04-2013 12:36PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Her final posts to facebook were:

""I would never do anything to hurt my kids. I just want to keep them safe and happy.

"So many people tried to hurt them and make them sad but ill (sic) never let that happen again.

"I'll never leave them. Ill always love all four of them more than words can describe.

"Ill always be with them keeping them safe the people who are supposed to help us just tell lies and try to take my babies away."

Nobody can say for sure of course, but my thinking is that she seemed certain that her children were going to be taken off her. I reckon in the depths of despair this may have been a motivator. Her view being that they would always be with her if she "took them with her".

I read over that article showing pictures of her minutes before she died, it was so upsetting. She was walking to the multi-story car park with a teddy in her hand, she must have been in a terrible state

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 01:03PM

Catphish wrote: »

Nobody can say for sure of course, but my thinking is that she seemed certain that her children were going to be taken off her. I reckon in the depths of despair this may have been a motivator. Her view being that they would always be with her if she "took them with her".

It's too late saying it now, but social workers and police should've actually stepped in and taken her children out of that situation and got her help. She could refuse the help all she likes, but at least the children would still be alive.

The whole "they won't take my babies" cry by people who force their children to live in squalor and chaos- children are not their possessions and should be protected from neglect and abuse and the parents should avail of the help that is there for them instead of trying to "fool" social services because they're afraid their children will be taken away.

It's not a decision that's taken lightly, no social worker actually WANTS to separate children from their parents, but in the interests of all concerned, sometimes it's a necessary step.

As for the idea that one cannot trust the health authorities, there's the Gardai, any number of people and organisations you can contact in confidence. Please don't perpetuate the myth that these people have nobody to turn to and everybody is against them. That's how we end up in situations like the way this case has ended.

wonderfullife · 17-04-2013 01:09PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's too late saying it now, but social workers and police should've actually stepped in and taken her children out of that situation and got her help. She could refuse the help all she likes, but at least the children would still be alive.

The whole "they won't take my babies" cry by people who force their children to live in squalor and chaos- children are not their possessions and should be protected from neglect and abuse and the parents should avail of the help that is there for them instead of trying to "fool" social services because they're afraid their children will be taken away.

It's not a decision that's taken lightly, no social worker actually WANTS to separate children from their parents, but in the interests of all concerned, sometimes it's a necessary step.

As for the idea that one cannot trust the health authorities, there's the Gardai, any number of people and organisations you can contact in confidence. Please don't perpetuate the myth that these people have nobody to turn to and everybody is against them. That's how we end up in situations like the way this case has ended.

Police and social workers can only step in when things come to their attention though. As i said earlier, the Guards or social workers can't exactly go door-to-door and ask do people need help.

In this case, seems that there was a minor stabbing involving the boyfriend who lied to the police about it to protect the mother. A well-intentioned move on his part. If he had the benefit of hindsight, knowing what we know now, he'd have told the police.

These incidents happened over the space of 24 hours. The facebook posts, the stabbing incident etc. It was not a case of abuse, neglect and negligence over a large period of time where signs or signals were not acted upon by the authorities.

This, sadly, just descended into chaos so quickly. I wouldn't be apportioning blame to any of the authorities, not unless new information comes to light.

Catphish · 17-04-2013 01:11PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's too late saying it now, but social workers and police should've actually stepped in and taken her children out of that situation and got her help. She could refuse the help all she likes, but at least the children would still be alive.

The whole "they won't take my babies" cry by people who force their children to live in squalor and chaos- children are not their possessions and should be protected from neglect and abuse and the parents should avail of the help that is there for them instead of trying to "fool" social services because they're afraid their children will be taken away.

It's not a decision that's taken lightly, no social worker actually WANTS to separate children from their parents, but in the interests of all concerned, sometimes it's a necessary step.

As for the idea that one cannot trust the health authorities, there's the Gardai, any number of people and organisations you can contact in confidence. Please don't perpetuate the myth that these people have nobody to turn to and everybody is against them. That's how we end up in situations like the way this case has ended.

I know that there is help, you know that there is help. Unfortunately it may be the case where she thought everyone was against her. Like I said in my post, it's only speculation, but it is clear she was in fear of losing her kids.

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 01:42PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

These incidents happened over the space of 24 hours. The facebook posts, the stabbing incident etc. It was not a case of abuse, neglect and negligence over a large period of time where signs or signals were not acted upon by the authorities.

From the article though that Muir linked to earlier, it would appear that she HAD a history with social services so the situation would've been known to them-

Locals say Fiona was depressed, had asked social services for help and was worried they would take her children away.

They also claim police visited her home late on Sunday night after being alerted about her state of mind.

Neighbour Megan Smith, 19, said: “She was crying out for help because she was depressed, she couldn’t cope.”

A spokesman for Suffolk County Council refused to confirm or deny if social services had been involved with Fiona and her children.

This to me says anyway that social services were aware of the situation, but somebody obviously dropped the ball. I don't know anything about the area where the girl is from, but it doesn't strike me as a particularly economically affluent area. This could have had a bearing on the situation too.

It stinks of àrse covering on all sides tbh, no doubt of course skewed too by the media only reporting what they want to report and leaving out far too much of the background details that could've been relevant.

dark crystal · 17-04-2013 01:50PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's too late saying it now, but social workers and police should've actually stepped in and taken her children out of that situation and got her help. She could refuse the help all she likes, but at least the children would still be alive.

The whole "they won't take my babies" cry by people who force their children to live in squalor and chaos- children are not their possessions and should be protected from neglect and abuse and the parents should avail of the help that is there for them instead of trying to "fool" social services because they're afraid their children will be taken away.

It's not a decision that's taken lightly, no social worker actually WANTS to separate children from their parents, but in the interests of all concerned, sometimes it's a necessary step.

As for the idea that one cannot trust the health authorities, there's the Gardai, any number of people and organisations you can contact in confidence. Please don't perpetuate the myth that these people have nobody to turn to and everybody is against them. That's how we end up in situations like the way this case has ended.

She didn't seem to be perpetuating anything of the sort. She was simply saying it seemed to her that the mother believed there was a chance the children would be taken away from her. In fact, that's one of the main reasons many women don't seek help.

http://www.nursingtimes.net/home/clinical-zones/postnatal-depression-often-unreported/5036928.article

Approximately 58% of new mothers with PND did not seek medical help. This was often due to them not understanding the condition or fearing the consequences of reporting the problem.

These mothers have a fear that if they admit to having mental health issues and/or not being able to cope, their children will be taken by social services. This isn't the case, of course, but it's clearly a fear many women have regardless.

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 02:00PM

Catphish wrote: »

I know that there is help, you know that there is help. Unfortunately it may be the case where she thought everyone was against her. Like I said in my post, it's only speculation, but it is clear she was in fear of losing her kids.

I posted this before, from here:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056858497/4

Czarcasm wrote: »

Just speaking from my own experience of this phenomenon, where parents are lackadaisical about sending their kids to school, the most common underlying reason is that the parents just couldn't be bothered. In cases where I've seen this happen, the school would've made every effort to work with the parents to get the kids to school, social workers would've intervened and tried to help, but the response from a lot of parents in my experience is "yeah well I'm taking my kids out of that school anyway!".

I attended a meeting before Christmas where the parents of a family were neglecting sending their children to school. It was the final straw in months of intervention from the school, social workers, and even the Gardai were represented at the meeting to try and help the parents. I felt after the meeting that they had defiantly thumbed their noses up at "the system", coming out with classics like "you won't take my children away from me", etc.

Their children's attendance is being monitored now, but they're not far from where this case ended up. So for those that say "must be more to this story", there certainly is- the articles mention nothing about the behind the scenes efforts that would've been made by all concerned for the children's welfare, and those concerned having to listen to cliches like "I'm a good parent, don't question my parenting skills, you're interfering in something you know nothing about", ad nauseum.

The parents are convinced "the system is against them", and "the system" is the problem. It could never be as simple surely as they're just too disinterested in their child's welfare to make the effort to see that they get a good education? Surely not?

Actually, it is. And some people just need to grow up and take some responsibility for their children's behaviour.

Now in THAT particular case, there was a hell of a lot more going on that wasn't relevant to what was being discussed in the thread, and I know it'd, well, it'd be speculation tbh, but my own personal experience suggests that there's usually a lot more going on in these instances than can be pinned down to just one reason such as the state of her mental health.

Sometimes too that cry for help can be interpreted as a cry wolf.

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 02:38PM

dark crystal wrote: »

She didn't seem to be perpetuating anything of the sort. She was simply saying it seemed to her that the mother believed there was a chance the children would be taken away from her. In fact, that's one of the main reasons many women don't seek help.

http://www.nursingtimes.net/home/clinical-zones/postnatal-depression-often-unreported/5036928.article

These mothers have a fear that if they admit to having mental health issues and/or not being able to cope, their children will be taken by social services. This isn't the case, of course, but it's clearly a fear many women have regardless.

Sorry DC I was actually thinking of clairefontaines reply to my earlier post when she mentioned the HSE's track record as a reason not to report incidents of child neglect. I know only too well it's a fear many women have (and men tbh, again if only my own personal experience is anything to go by, a chap I remember he was giving it welly about "no social workers gonna take away my kids", completely missing the point that he had no say in the matter because they were his girlfriend's children from a previous relationship!).

I'm only putting it out there that collectively the social workers, the friends, the neighbours, the boyfriend, they all share a collective responsibility in failing to prevent what happened here in this case.

The whole "they'll take my kids away" myth is one that needs to be gotten rid of, especially in cases where people feel that they cannot ask for help when they find themselves unable to cope. They shouldn't be misled into immediately thinking worst case scenario that their children are going to be taken away, but sometimes it's better that they are removed from the situation so that the person can be given the help they need to be able to cope with themselves first so that they are then in a better position to be able to take care of their children.

wolfpawnat · 17-04-2013 02:57PM

I find it fascinating people think the first thing a state service will do is take the kids. They do this only when the children are in actual physical danger (and often leave it way to long at that!) It is a last resort. They do their best to aid struggling parents. Many parents with depression have regular check ups with state services to make sure they are not struggling, not so they can use it as a way to keep an eye on them to remove children from their care. They are not evil, or at least never intended to be. It is a threat my MIL makes when she does not like my parenting technique. "I'll call Social services" I laugh, SS are there to help, not to take kids away from good homes in need of a little help. Though explaining this to the mentally ill would NEVER be easy. I think it needs to addressed though.

17-04-2013 03:03PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

As a sufferer of depression myself i just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents.

First, not everyone who commits suicide is depressed. Fundamentally, some people can be of sound mind and a specific incident or sequence of incidents distorts their view of life.

If you think of it as a house of cards - some people might be totally fine, their house of cards is standing tall and strong. Someone takes a card from the base,so quickly and suddenly that they barely have time to react before the house of cards comes crashing down.

There are examples of this in recent years - the prank-nurse victim and the footballer Gary Speed. By all accounts, both individuals were happy and not suffering from depression. Specific, overwhelming incidents happened. Incidents to a different person would seem trivial. But to them it seemed like the be-all, end-all. One persons trivial is another persons crucial.

In this case, the young girl had 3 children, fourth on the way, and perhaps her base card, the foundation, was her boyfriend. Some people function better inside a relationship and break-ups affect people in vastly different ways.

Second, if she was suffering from depression we should never be too quick to apportion blame. It's something we seek in life - when things go wrong having somebody "at fault" for it makes more sense to us than the abstract idea that nobody is to blame.

Depression can be like a broken arm - only with no clear concept of treatment. If one hundred boardsies break their arm, they may all break it in different places but the common denominator is they all have a broken bone and ultimately the path to resolution will come in the form of a cast. With depression we may all have it in different ways but the path to resolution for one will rarely be the same as the path another must take. There is no Plaster of Paris here and very like a broken bone, how we heal and rebuild strength is very much down to the individual.

So in this girls case, if she did have depression, it's not as simple as looking for who to blame. Frontline mental health services can only be be a help if they are engaged with. Social workers can only be of help if fundamental issues are brought to their attention. Psychologists, Home Care Nurses, Social Workers do a tremendous job (i can testify to that) but what they can't do is go door-to-door and ask "do you need help?".

The bereaved will always think "could i have done more?", "should i have done more?", they will go over every conversation, every sign, every little thing and ask themselves what they could have done. Those questions will last a lifetime.

This is just a tragic harrowing tale and yes, we do consciously and subconsciously have more empathy for a woman in this situation than a man. Whether that's sexism is for another day.

Tales like this can serve a small purpose though. Facebook is notorious for "attention seeking" type posts. Just remember, whether it's facebook, twitter, text messages or in person, sometimes people do need your attention. It only takes two seconds to write or say "are you ok? if you want to talk i'm here". We can all spare those two seconds.

The prank call nurse DID have a history of depression, according to various sources, and had tried to commit suicide before. The prank call was probably the last straw, but it's not as if everything was going great for her until that happened.

I agree with the second bolded point. The problem is that there are so many attention seekers that it becomes hard for acquaintances to distinguish between someone looking for attention because they're a bit bored and someone who is desperately ill.

clairefontaine · 17-04-2013 03:03PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I find it fascinating people think the first thing a state service will do is take the kids. They do this only when the children are in actual physical danger (and often leave it way to long at that!) It is a last resort. They do their best to aid struggling parents. Many parents with depression have regular check ups with state services to make sure they are not struggling, not so they can use it as a way to keep an eye on them to remove children from their care. They are not evil, or at least never intended to be. It is a threat my MIL makes when she does not like my parenting technique. "I'll call Social services" I laugh, SS are there to help, not to take kids away from good homes in need of a little help. Though explaining this to the mentally ill would NEVER be easy. I think it needs to addressed though.

I know of several grandmothers who have used the HSE to abuse their daughters and daughters in laws by HSE proxy- reporting BS to social services. It's a joke and their should be a penalty for false alarms and abusing the system.

PND checks are not part of regular post partum check ups and imo should be part of it. ANd I dont know how much reaching out they do to single parents, who probably already feel doubly scrutinised and judged.

I dont know if this woman had pnd or what she had, but it would seem to me that depression would be a natural response to her circumstances.

wolfpawnat · 17-04-2013 03:11PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I know of several grandmothers who have used the HSE to abuse their daughters and daughters in laws by HSE proxy- reporting BS to social services. It's a joke and their should be a penalty for false alarms and abusing the system.

PND checks are not part of regular post partum check ups and imo should be part of it. ANd I dont know how much reaching out they do to single parents, who probably already feel doubly scrutinised and judged.

I dont know if this woman had pnd or what she had, but it would seem to me that depression would be a natural response to her circumstances.

Going by the age of the youngest born and that she was so close to the birth of the next, it could easily have been Pre/Post Natal Depression. Or it could be the worry/grief of her, what I can only describe as terribly difficult, new family situation. Who knows?

No PND check ups are not the norm, and I think that is why so many women go so long undiagnosed. In many cases a father has to go back to work nearly immediately after a child is born, leaving a mother alone with the child(ren) with no one to notice her struggle (something I myself fear happening me in the near future). If you have a history of depression SS are made aware and give you extra checks, but other than that, you are by yourself. It is amazing how many could be saved from unnecessary stress and hardship were the governments willing to fork out on more SW and associated staff.

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 03:42PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I know of several grandmothers who have used the HSE to abuse their daughters and daughters in laws by HSE proxy- reporting BS to social services. It's a joke and their should be a penalty for false alarms and abusing the system.

The problem then Claire is with the grandmothers, and not with the HSE, and there are indeed penalties for false reporting of claims-

From: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Children_and_Family_Services/childrenfirst/concerns/

Anyone can report a concern about a child. Under The Protection of Persons Reporting Child Abuse Act 1998, so long as you report what you believe is true and it is done in good faith you cannot be sued.

PND checks are not part of regular post partum check ups and imo should be part of it.

I don't know if they're part of formal check up's myself tbh, I can certainly find out, I do know for a fact though that both health nurses and social workers are trained to spot the signs of PND, but unfortunately training is one thing, experience is another thing entirely.

ANd I dont know how much reaching out they do to single parents

They do even more reaching out to single parents than they would for couples tbh, depending on the situation obviously, I've met some fantastic single parents and some, well, less than stellar couples, is the nicest way I can put it.

who probably already feel doubly scrutinised and judged.

I'm glad you said "probably", because that's really a perception vs reality argument. It's completely down to the individual.

I dont know if this woman had pnd or what she had, but it would seem to me that depression would be a natural response to her circumstances.

We don't know the full set of circumstances though, only what we've read so far in the media. Depression might indeed be a natural response, suicide even might be a natural response. Murdering your children however, could not be considered a natural response.

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 03:50PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It is amazing how many could be saved from unnecessary stress and hardship were the governments willing to fork out on more SW and associated staff.

Money and staff aren't the problem wolfpawnat, the perception of those who are offering help is the problem, all the training in the world still doesn't make them mind readers, plus they have to combat the perception that the first thing they want to do is separate children from their parents.

wolfpawnat · 17-04-2013 04:01PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

SS are there to help, not to take kids away from good homes in need of a little help. Though explaining this to the mentally ill would NEVER be easy. I think it needs to addressed though.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Money and staff aren't the problem wolfpawnat, the perception of those who are offering help is the problem, all the training in the world still doesn't make them mind readers, plus they have to combat the perception that the first thing they want to do is separate children from their parents.

As you can see, I said this myself in a previous post.:) There is this ridiculous notion they are evil and trying to ruin homes. But they are under a lot of strain and are thinly stretched too. It would be a three pronged approach really.

clairefontaine · 17-04-2013 04:07PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

The problem then Claire is with the grandmothers, and not with the HSE, and there are indeed penalties for false reporting of claims-

From: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Children_and_Family_Services/childrenfirst/concerns/

I don't know if they're part of formal check up's myself tbh, I can certainly find out, I do know for a fact though that both health nurses and social workers are trained to spot the signs of PND, but unfortunately training is one thing, experience is another thing entirely.

They do even more reaching out to single parents than they would for couples tbh, depending on the situation obviously, I've met some fantastic single parents and some, well, less than stellar couples, is the nicest way I can put it.

I'm glad you said "probably", because that's really a perception vs reality argument. It's completely down to the individual.

We don't know the full set of circumstances though, only what we've read so far in the media. Depression might indeed be a natural response, suicide even might be a natural response. Murdering your children however, could not be considered a natural response.

There have been studies on mothers in nature who kill their offspring. We like to pretend it's an abberation, but violence against children is rampant, both in nature and in humans.

I think people get hung up on the depression/ptsd/mental illness as some kind of excuse for evil acts or horrible acts. These things cause people to do selfish, horrible, terrible things, that we know are wrong....but when you are sick, really sick,...they probably seem like the right thing to do at the time. Hard to imagine, but try to imagine it. For all we know, she was in so much pain, she saw the murders as a mercy killing, because life is that bad when you are that sick.

bhamsteve · 17-04-2013 08:36PM

Interesting reading here on the subject of infanticide and mental illness. Full article here.

Maternal Infanticide Associated With Mental Illness: Prevention and the Promise of Saved Lives Margaret G. Spinelli, M.D.
Am J Psychiatry 2004;161:1548-1557

OBJECTIVE: Although maternal infanticide is a rare event, a high proportion of cases occurs in the context of postpartum mental illness. The author reviews historical, legislative, and contemporary psychiatric perspectives on infanticide and discusses ways in which the psychiatric community can improve prevention of infanticide and promote appropriate treatment of mentally ill women who commit infanticide. METHOD: The case of Texas v. Andrea Yates, involving a mother with mental illness who drowned her five children, is used to illustrate society’s complicated reactions to infanticide in the context of postpartum mental illness. RESULTS: In the United States, the complexity of the response to infanticide is demonstrated by the judicial system’s reaction to such cases. Whereas England’s Infanticide Law provides probation and mandates psychiatric treatment for mothers with mental illness who commit infanticide, "killer mothers" may face the death penalty in the United States. Contemporary neuroscientific findings support the position that a woman with postpartum psychosis who commits infanticide needs treatment rather than punishment and that appropriate treatment will deter her from killing again. Psychiatrists have a vital role in recognizing the signs and symptoms of peripartum psychiatric disorders, particularly postpartum psychosis, and in early identification of and intervention with at-risk mothers. CONCLUSIONS: The absence of formal DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for postpartum psychiatric disorders promotes disparate treatment under the law. The psychiatric community should develop guidelines for the treatment of postpartum disorders, foster sharing of knowledge between psychiatry and the law, and do more to enlighten society about the effects of mental illness on thought and behavior so that decisions about the treatment and punishment of mentally ill persons will not be left exclusively in the hands of the judicial system.

I'm not sure how applicable it is to this case though, I've not read anything to suggest she was suffering an acute psychotic episode.

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 09:05PM

bhamsteve wrote: »

Interesting reading here on the subject of infanticide and mental illness. Full article here.

I'm not sure how applicable it is to this case though, I've not read anything to suggest she was suffering an acute psychotic episode.

Good article there Steve, one might make allowances for an acute psychotic episode and suggest she'd gone into "autopilot" mode had it not been for the fact that the murders were pre-meditated, evidenced by the fact that she practically announced her intentions the night before on facebook, and I'm not sure the sequence of events that followed whether she murdered the children first and attempted to kill the ex-boyfriend, or vice-versa, but she clearly had the presence of mind to know she was doing wrong, yet still went ahead with it.

bhamsteve · 17-04-2013 09:31PM

I've only read the Mirror article and wouldn't put much faith in their accurate reporting. I certainly don't think a diagnosis of depression automatically exonerates someone from all responsibility for their actions.

Madam_X · 17-04-2013 10:08PM

bhamsteve wrote: »

I've only read the Mirror article and wouldn't put much faith in their accurate reporting. I certainly don't think a diagnosis of depression automatically exonerates someone from all responsibility for their actions.

I don't either, but it needs to be taken into account as a cause or partial cause. And in extreme cases, the perpetrator should be incarcerated in a psychiatric facility rather than a prison.

Handsome Bob · 17-04-2013 10:26PM

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

It's a pity she didn't survive the fall and live with pain for the rest of her life, the selfish cow.

Depression or not, why kill the kids too?

I met a guy through my work who was suffering from mental health issues. He'd often get himself in trouble by being aggressive towards people and it would often stem from an insult where there was none, or a threat where there was none.

We'd always ask the same question; "Why did you react in that way?"

We'd always get the same response: "I don't know."

We were asking for reason where there was none.

bhamsteve · 18-04-2013 09:03AM

Madam_X wrote: »

I don't either, but it needs to be taken into account as a cause or partial cause. And in extreme cases, the perpetrator should be incarcerated in a psychiatric facility rather than a prison.

Of course, it should be considered as a contributing factor and if anyone is in need of psychiatric care that should take place ahead of any punishment.
It is up to the courts to decide if mental illness is a valid defense, but sadly in this case that's not possible.
There is a huge difference between someone suffering from mild to moderate depression and someone suffering from a psychosis, in terms of how aware they are of the implications of their actions.

Czarcasm · 18-04-2013 09:17AM

Handsome Bob wrote: »

I met a guy through my work who was suffering from mental health issues. He'd often get himself in trouble by being aggressive towards people and it would often stem from an insult where there was none, or a threat where there was none.

We'd always ask the same question; "Why did you react in that way?"

We'd always get the same response: "I don't know."

We were asking for reason where there was none.

There's ALWAYS a reason for a behaviour, only that sometimes the perpetrator doesn't have the language nor the tools to trace back the source of the cause of their behaviour and thereby convey their reasons in a way they think you'll understand.

Young Pregnant Woman murder-suicide

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