Young Pregnant Woman murder-suicide

pragmatic1 · 16-04-2013 11:17PM

If it was her boyfriend that committed this crime I strongly doubt the comments would be anywhere near as sympathetic. She's a child murderer, plain and simple.

Czarcasm · 16-04-2013 11:18PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

This has nothing to do with her being a woman.

It has everything to do with her being a woman! In all fairness, I'm all for equality and all, but to completely gloss over relevant factors in order to be seen to be politically correct about it? It's not as if a pregnant man will ever murder his children and then die by suicide now is it?

Madam_X · 16-04-2013 11:21PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It has everything to do with her being a woman! In all fairness, I'm all for equality and all, but to completely gloss over relevant factors in order to be seen to be politically correct about it? It's not as if a pregnant man will ever murder his children and then die by suicide now is it?

No way am I trying to be politically correct C. I'm not sure what facts I'm glossing over either. These seem the actions of a person (either gender) who has lost their mind. I'm not even that sympathetic - I'd have more sympathy for their dad now.

Whereas the mother of Peter Connelly (Baby P) was just neglectful and callous - doesn't seem to be any other explanation there. The aunt of Victoria Climbié was just an abusive monster.

pragmatic1 wrote: »

If it was her boyfriend that committed this crime I strongly doubt the comments would be anywhere near as sympathetic. She's a child murderer, plain and simple.

Yeh that was discussed all right not too far back in the thread.

Da Shins Kelly · 16-04-2013 11:24PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It has everything to do with her being a woman! In all fairness, I'm all for equality and all, but to completely gloss over relevant factors in order to be seen to be politically correct about it? It's not as if a pregnant man will ever murder his children and then die by suicide now is it?

I'm talking about in relation to mental illness. Men have done and will do awful things in the throes of mental illness too. The situation in Newtown is one that springs to mind in relation to that guy's state of mind. Saying that people only feel sympathy because she's a woman is just wrong. If a man murdered his own children while in the throes of a psychotic break or some such, it would be just as awful. Mental illness affects all people. It doesn't excuse heinous acts, but it offers an explanation.

Muir · 16-04-2013 11:27PM

Mirror Article

Another article which says she did seek help from Social Services. It also says it is believed she stabbed the father of the children. You can't believe everything you read obviously but it sounds like she was crying out for help.

Trudiha · 16-04-2013 11:39PM

Muir wrote: »

Mirror Article

Another article which says she did seek help from Social Services. It also says it is believed she stabbed the father of the children. You can't believe everything you read obviously but it sounds like she was crying out for help.

I saw the stabbing of her fella less as a cry for help and more as an indication that she was bad rather than mad. Of course, that's just speculation, I'm sure that the truth will come out in the fullness of time.

ahnowbrowncow · 16-04-2013 11:39PM

There area people here who quite clearly have never encountered mental illness and have zero understanding of it.

And it's because of people like this that there is still social stigma attached to things like depression.

Czarcasm · 16-04-2013 11:45PM

Madam_X wrote: »

No way am I trying to be politically correct C. I'm not sure what facts I'm glossing over either. These seem the actions of a person (either gender) who has lost their mind. I'm not even that sympathetic - I'd have more sympathy for their dad now.

Oh no it wasn't your comments MX, it was Shins comment above mine that had me do a bit of an eyebrow raiser.

As regards the father, tbh and call me cynical for it, but I reckon the media will sympathise with him while they're busily digging into his past too. This girl didn't suffer from depression out of the blue (pardon the unfortunate pun), her friends, family knew, her neighbours knew, and certainly her boyfriend she split up with only a month previously, he knew!

They shouldn't come out of it smelling of roses either! This is something that could have been prevented easily if any of them had really given a shìt.

Whereas the mother of Peter Connelly (Baby P) was just neglectful and callous - doesn't seem to be any other explanation there. The aunt of Victoria Climbié was just a monster.

We all see cases of child neglect every day MX, we've all seen it at some point or another, perhaps not to the extremes above, but where the parents whether it's through wilful neglect, or just their inability to cope, the children are basically left to fend for each other in some cases, and most of it goes unreported, because most people neither want to offer help; they "don't want to get involved", and so they won't call health services either.

That's why cases like the OP I'm saying it could have been prevented, people knew, they just chose not to care.

Trudiha · 16-04-2013 11:45PM

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

There area people here who quite clearly have never encountered mental illness and have zero understanding of it.

I think that it's possible to both understand the severity of some mental illnesses (and that it might or might not be a factor in what has happened here) and to question why we assume that some folks have them while we assume that some other folks are just evil.

Madam_X · 16-04-2013 11:49PM

Trudiha wrote: »

I saw the stabbing of her fella less as a cry for help and more as an indication that she was bad rather than mad. Of course, that's just speculation

Mixture of both maybe. It seems she needed hospitalisation in a high-security psychiatric facility - but not everyone is aware/knowledgeable about mental health and the warning signs. Particularly people as young as her circle of friends (not saying all young people don't know, but more of them are less likely to).
It is also difficult to have someone committed in Britain (and this country).

Czarcasm wrote: »

Oh no it wasn't your comments MX, it was Shins comment above mine that had me do a bit of an eyebrow raiser.

As regards the father, tbh and call me cynical for it, but I reckon the media will sympathise with him while they're busily digging into his past too. This girl didn't suffer from depression out of the blue (pardon the unfortunate pun), her friends, family knew, her neighbours knew, and certainly her boyfriend she split up with only a month previously, he knew!

They shouldn't come out of it smelling of roses either! This is something that could have been prevented easily if any of them had really given a shìt.

We all see cases of child neglect every day MX, we've all seen it at some point or another, perhaps not to the extremes above, but where the parents whether it's through wilful neglect, or just their inability to cope, the children are basically left to fend for each other in some cases, and most of it goes unreported, because most people neither want to offer help; they "don't want to get involved", and so they won't call health services either.

That's why cases like the OP I'm saying it could have been prevented, people knew, they just chose not to care.

Do so many people know though? I'm not sure we're such an uncaring lot. I genuinely believe it's because of not knowing. If I suspected a child was being abused, I would do whatever I could to draw attention to it. I'd have to tread carefully though, because it's such a massively grave thing to suspect someone of, and it might not be happening - could be an unfortunate mistake. I'd still have to pursue it though... and I don't think most people are any different.

Trudiha wrote: »

I think that it's possible to both understand the severity of some mental illnesses (and that it might or might not be a factor in what has happened here) and to question why we assume that some folks have them while we assume that some other folks are just evil.

Various factors in the cases make up my mind as to whether I think the person seems mentally ill or not. Of course it's only opinion though.

darced · 17-04-2013 12:03AM

This post has been deleted.

Muir · 17-04-2013 12:03AM

Trudiha wrote: »

I saw the stabbing of her fella less as a cry for help and more as an indication that she was bad rather than mad. Of course, that's just speculation, I'm sure that the truth will come out in the fullness of time.

I wasn't referring to that part as a cry for help, moreso all the stuff that was put on Facebook and the fact that she apparently asked Social Services for help. Stabbing the father of her children was a clear sign she was not in the right state of mind and I wonder why they were not removed from her care (even temporarily) at that stage - like I find it odd the boyfriend didn't make sure the kids were removed from the home - but there's probably more to the story.

Scruffles · 17-04-2013 12:03AM

...a serious thread about the deaths of these kids and a mum with PND and some users instead derail and make light of the issue by throwing out victim mentality tinged agendas on how hard done by males woud be in the same position.....dont know which is worse,using any kind of thread to bring in hypothetical complaints about how worse males woud get it in the same position-or not getting off the chair and doing something about it if they truly believe what they say;eg, activism.

no one in this thread has been sympathetic either like some have said- most have seen the PND and mental illness in general as a explanation however-there is a difference.

Madam_X · 17-04-2013 12:06AM

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There's never ever an excuse, just sometimes an explanation.

darced · 17-04-2013 12:12AM

This post has been deleted.

catallus · 17-04-2013 12:16AM

Just because somebody is depressed or insane doesn't mean they can't be evil.

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 12:26AM

Madam_X wrote: »

Do so many people know though? I'm not sure we're such an uncaring lot. I genuinely believe it's because of not knowing.

Ah no MX I'm talking about people that actually DO know when something is going on, they'll still do the whole "hmm, well really it's none of my business like", because at that point they don't see it as a serious threat, if that makes sense?

In this case however, and having just read the article above linked to by Muir it seems there were some woeful failures all round, from the time she made the facebook posts to the time she jumped, she was able to tell everyone on facebook what she had planned to do, stab the ex boyfriend, kill the children, turn the police away from the door (and what's worse is the police went away, how come the neighbours didn't even say anything then?), and then take her own life.

To be honest, if people say they couldn't see that coming, they're lying. It wouldn't have taken a whole pile of effort to pick up the phone. Everyone else thought somebody else would pick up the phone.

If I suspected a child was being abused, I would do whatever I could to draw attention to it. I'd have to tread carefully though, because it's such a massively grave thing to suspect someone of, and it might not be happening - could be an unfortunate mistake. I'd still have to pursue it though... and I don't think most people are any different.

I'll just put this out there-

Anyone can make an anonymous and confidential report if they suspect child neglect or abuse-

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Children_and_Family_Services/childrenfirst/concerns/

wonderfullife · 17-04-2013 04:50AM

As a sufferer of depression myself i just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents.

First, not everyone who commits suicide is depressed. Fundamentally, some people can be of sound mind and a specific incident or sequence of incidents distorts their view of life.

If you think of it as a house of cards - some people might be totally fine, their house of cards is standing tall and strong. Someone takes a card from the base,so quickly and suddenly that they barely have time to react before the house of cards comes crashing down.

There are examples of this in recent years - the prank-nurse victim and the footballer Gary Speed. By all accounts, both individuals were happy and not suffering from depression. Specific, overwhelming incidents happened. Incidents to a different person would seem trivial. But to them it seemed like the be-all, end-all. One persons trivial is another persons crucial.

In this case, the young girl had 3 children, fourth on the way, and perhaps her base card, the foundation, was her boyfriend. Some people function better inside a relationship and break-ups affect people in vastly different ways.

Second, if she was suffering from depression we should never be too quick to apportion blame. It's something we seek in life - when things go wrong having somebody "at fault" for it makes more sense to us than the abstract idea that nobody is to blame.

Depression can be like a broken arm - only with no clear concept of treatment. If one hundred boardsies break their arm, they may all break it in different places but the common denominator is they all have a broken bone and ultimately the path to resolution will come in the form of a cast. With depression we may all have it in different ways but the path to resolution for one will rarely be the same as the path another must take. There is no Plaster of Paris here and very like a broken bone, how we heal and rebuild strength is very much down to the individual.

So in this girls case, if she did have depression, it's not as simple as looking for who to blame. Frontline mental health services can only be be a help if they are engaged with. Social workers can only be of help if fundamental issues are brought to their attention. Psychologists, Home Care Nurses, Social Workers do a tremendous job (i can testify to that) but what they can't do is go door-to-door and ask "do you need help?".

The bereaved will always think "could i have done more?", "should i have done more?", they will go over every conversation, every sign, every little thing and ask themselves what they could have done. Those questions will last a lifetime.

This is just a tragic harrowing tale and yes, we do consciously and subconsciously have more empathy for a woman in this situation than a man. Whether that's sexism is for another day.

Tales like this can serve a small purpose though. Facebook is notorious for "attention seeking" type posts. Just remember, whether it's facebook, twitter, text messages or in person, sometimes people do need your attention. It only takes two seconds to write or say "are you ok? if you want to talk i'm here". We can all spare those two seconds.

wonderfullife · 17-04-2013 05:35AM

Her final posts to facebook were:

"I would never do anything to hurt my kids. I just want to keep them safe and happy.

"So many people tried to hurt them and make them sad but ill (sic) never let that happen again.

"I'll never leave them. Ill always love all four of them more than words can describe.

"Ill always be with them keeping them safe the people who are supposed to help us just tell lies and try to take my babies away."

Czarcasm · 17-04-2013 06:08AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

As a sufferer of depression myself i just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents.

First, not everyone who commits suicide is depressed. Fundamentally, some people can be of sound mind and a specific incident or sequence of incidents distorts their view of life...

...Tales like this can serve a small purpose though. Facebook is notorious for "attention seeking" type posts. Just remember, whether it's facebook, twitter, text messages or in person, sometimes people do need your attention. It only takes two seconds to write or say "are you ok? if you want to talk i'm here". We can all spare those two seconds.

That was more than 2c WL, the above information and explanation about depression and suicide is bloody priceless, unlike this sort of self aggrandizing bollocksology that makes no attempt to even define their view of depression, let alone explain it -

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

There area people here who quite clearly have never encountered mental illness and have zero understanding of it.

And it's because of people like this that there is still social stigma attached to things like depression.

But think they can look down on everybody else's different view as if they know nothing and that person "has been through it all and knows it all". The bit at the end there is just pure irony.

bhamsteve · 17-04-2013 08:37AM

In my opinion "depression" is simply a label used for convenience to describe any combination of a multitude of symptoms, of varying severity.

It is not a "one size fits all" condition so a label of depression alone gives us very little understanding of what her mental state was at the time.

Ms. Pingui · 17-04-2013 08:56AM

She must have been feeling pretty desperate, left alone with 3 kids under 4 and another on the way. That would be fairly overwelming for a healthy person, never mind someone with an obvious mental illness.

padd b1975 · 17-04-2013 09:39AM

RIP to all.

Blisterman · 17-04-2013 09:56AM

There's a definite sexist bias to how this has been reported. Every article I've read mentions her mental illness and confused state of mind, trying sensitively to understand why she committed the acts she did.

Compare that to Mick Philpott, who similarly killed his own kids, who is immediately painted as a cartoon villain and branded as "evil" and "sick".

K-9 · 17-04-2013 10:06AM

Blisterman wrote: »

There's a definite sexist bias to how this has been reported. Every article I've read mentions her mental illness and confused state of mind, trying sensitively to understand why she committed the acts she did.

Compare that to Mick Philpott, who similarly killed his own kids, who is immediately painted as a cartoon villain and branded as "evil" and "sick".

I didn't know Philpott suffered from depression, I didn't read much on it though, thought it was an insurance scam gone wrong.

I don't see why the sexism debate comes into it, we should have sympathy for anybody that somehow thinks committing suicide and taking their children with them is a solution, obviously something isn't right.

Tbh I don't see that much difference in attitudes, this thread is a good example, plenty saying she's a child killer too.

Blisterman · 17-04-2013 10:19AM

Well there was clearly something wrong with him. Setting your house full of kids on fire is not the actions of a sane person.

But I don't recall reading any article suggesting that mental illness could have had something to do with it. Whereas in this case, as it always is when mothers kill their kids, it's the immediate angle that all reporters turn to.

Mothers are inherently seen as nurturing, so if there's any deviation from this, people instinctively try and find mitigating factors.

Of course this sort of sexism works both ways. How often do you see phrases along the lines of "Michael, a chemical engineer and Carol, a mother of two..."?

clairefontaine · 17-04-2013 10:25AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Oh no it wasn't your comments MX, it was Shins comment above mine that had me do a bit of an eyebrow raiser.

As regards the father, tbh and call me cynical for it, but I reckon the media will sympathise with him while they're busily digging into his past too. This girl didn't suffer from depression out of the blue (pardon the unfortunate pun), her friends, family knew, her neighbours knew, and certainly her boyfriend she split up with only a month previously, he knew!

They shouldn't come out of it smelling of roses either! This is something that could have been prevented easily if any of them had really given a shìt.

We all see cases of child neglect every day MX, we've all seen it at some point or another, perhaps not to the extremes above, but where the parents whether it's through wilful neglect, or just their inability to cope, the children are basically left to fend for each other in some cases, and most of it goes unreported, because most people neither want to offer help; they "don't want to get involved", and so they won't call health services either.

That's why cases like the OP I'm saying it could have been prevented, people knew, they just chose not to care.

Your dead right Czarcasm. It's one of the most frustrating things when I hear/read all this civilised outrage about a subject, whether its tragic cases like this or tragic cases like the magdaline laundries or all the abuse that went on.

Too many blind eyes were turned, too many people made their contributions in their own little ways to these things, a death by a thousand cuts so to speak, but everyone is ready to jump on a high horse and point a finger to elsewhere.

If I were 23 and had three kids under three and one on the way, had just been left to cope with it all on my own. It would be very weird if I weren't depressed!!!

Where I disagree with you is calling on the state and the HSE for help. With their track record I would not appeal to them or trust them. What parents need is help, compassion from the community and family, and to be drawn away from alienation.

K-9 · 17-04-2013 10:34AM

Blisterman wrote: »

Well there was clearly something wrong with him. Setting your house full of kids on fire is not the actions of a sane person.

Well yes, personally if I was planning a fire insurance scam I'd make sure my children weren't about! He got convicted so I think there was a bit more to it than you are trying to make out. Also seeing as the father survived, I really, really don't think it was a suicide thing gone wrong, I think you picked a terrible comparison.

But I don't recall reading any article suggesting that mental illness could have had something to do with it. Whereas in this case, as it always is when mothers kill their kids, it's the immediate angle that all reporters turn to.

Not that case, but I can think of a couple in Ireland recently that hinted at depression, very sad cases. I'm sure some called them child killers like on this thread, I'd have sympathy for tragic cases myself. I think there have been cases of a mother killing her children and treated as just that, infanticide, stuff like that.

Mothers are inherently seen as nurturing, so if there's any deviation from this, people instinctively try and find mitigating factors.

Of course this sort of sexism works both ways. How often do you see phrases along the lines of "Michael, a chemical engineer and Carol, a mother of two..."?

Probably some truth in that, I suppose "Michael, a father of two and a chemical engineer, and Carol, a mother of two and a stay at home mother" is a bit long and superfluous. I'd agree fathers are probably more like to be called unemployed as against just a stay at home Dad.

dark crystal · 17-04-2013 10:56AM

Blisterman wrote: »

There's a definite sexist bias to how this has been reported. Every article I've read mentions her mental illness and confused state of mind, trying sensitively to understand why she committed the acts she did.

Compare that to Mick Philpott, who similarly killed his own kids, who is immediately painted as a cartoon villain and branded as "evil" and "sick".

Philpott didn't have a mental illness, his motive was greed and revenge. He didn't plan on killing his children, he planned on saving them and making himself look like a hero whilst framing his ex for arson and attempted murder.

Two completely different cases.

wonderfullife · 17-04-2013 11:21AM

Blisterman wrote: »

There's a definite sexist bias to how this has been reported. Every article I've read mentions her mental illness and confused state of mind, trying sensitively to understand why she committed the acts she did.

Compare that to Mick Philpott, who similarly killed his own kids, who is immediately painted as a cartoon villain and branded as "evil" and "sick".

Blisterman wrote: »

Well there was clearly something wrong with him. Setting your house full of kids on fire is not the actions of a sane person.

But I don't recall reading any article suggesting that mental illness could have had something to do with it. Whereas in this case, as it always is when mothers kill their kids, it's the immediate angle that all reporters turn to.

Mothers are inherently seen as nurturing, so if there's any deviation from this, people instinctively try and find mitigating factors.

Of course this sort of sexism works both ways. How often do you see phrases along the lines of "Michael, a chemical engineer and Carol, a mother of two..."?

dark crystal wrote: »

Philpott didn't have a mental illness, his motive was greed and revenge. He didn't plan on killing his children, he planned on saving them and making himself look like a hero whilst framing his ex for arson and attempted murder.

Two completely different cases.

To the best of my knowledge the key difference between these 2 incidents is that Mick Phillpott is a complete prick.

His primary motive for setting fire to the house was as DC alluded to above - to go in and save them, frame the ex, get her sent down and then (likely) get himself a few more appearances on reality tv shows.

Worse again, his primary motive was money. He had 2 women living with him and a total of 15 children. If the ex moved out with some of the kids he stood to lose roughly £500 a month as he took the child benefit payments.

This guy was on close to £100,000 a year from benefits due to so many children.

The case with the young girl, to my mind, is far less seedy or cynical. The only resemblance the cases have is the horrible loss of life involved in both.

Young Pregnant Woman murder-suicide

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