Young Pregnant Woman murder-suicide

wonderfullife

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lowestoft-pregnant-mum-fiona-anderson-1834698

Sad loss of lives here, 5 including the unborn.

biko

Tragic indeed.

Ihatecuddles-old

The fathers comments made me cry, absolutely tragic.

smash

We need a doom and gloom sub forum...

L.Jenkins

Committing suicide, that I can understand, but killing her children in the process when they had a father, that's just unthinkable.

returnNull

smash wrote: »

We need a doom and gloom sub forum...

think this is the nearest we have smash
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056915156

Lollipops23

Perhaps she was suffering from pregnancy-related psychosis? I remember hearing of it when that poor lady killed herself last year when she was pregnant with twins.

So sad that neither of them got the help they so sorely needed (although I'm not blaming anyone). The poor father, his world has collapsed.

smash

returnNull wrote: »

think this is the nearest we have smash
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056915156

I think there's an RIP forum or something...

Foxhound38

Aweful story, heart has to go out to the father.

Why they had to tabloid it up by calling them "tots" I'll never understand. WTF is a "tot"? They're children ffs

Mod

Smash, if you don't want to post here, then don't.

dark crystal

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Perhaps she was suffering from pregnancy-related psychosis? I remember hearing of it when that poor lady killed herself last year when she was pregnant with twins.

So sad that neither of them got the help they so sorely needed (although I'm not blaming anyone). The poor father, his world has collapsed.

Having three babies in such quick succession, with all those hormones, the stress, the sleepless nights etc. and then being pregnant again while your partner leaves and you realise you'll be a single parent with four small children and a bad case of post-natal depression on top - recipe for tragedy.

Such a terribly sad situation for everyone involved.

Amirani

What a disgusting thing to do. It's impossible to have sympathy for someone who does that to their kids. There was absolutely no need to end their lives because she was depressed. Sickening.

MurdyWurdy

dark crystal wrote: »

Having three babies in such quick succession, with all those hormones, the stress, the sleepless nights etc. and then being pregnant again while your partner leaves and you realise you'll be a single parent with four small children and a bad case of post-natal depression on top - recipe for tragedy.

Such a terribly sad situation for everyone involved.

I was thinking that too. Pregnancy isn't easy and you can't underestimate the effect pregnancy hormones can have on your brain, never mind adding all the other factors in. Very sad

clairefontaine

Why is this thread allowed to stay open when the threads on the father down in Cork who killed his daughter and himself were closed?

13spanner

This thread reminds me of the story in AH a few weeks back of the muggers who shot a mothers baby because she hadn't any cash on her. Something about very young children being killed gets to me.

Rest in peace and best wishes to the Dad, unimaginable situation.

clairefontaine

clairefontaine wrote: »

Why is this thread allowed to stay open when the threads on the father down in Cork who killed his daughter and himself were closed?

Mod

If you have a query on moderation either PM the mods or take it to feedback.

Lollipops23

NiallSparky wrote: »

What a disgusting thing to do. It's impossible to have sympathy for someone who does that to their kids. There was absolutely no need to end their lives because she was depressed. Sickening.

Nobodies pretending she was innocent, but she clearly wasn't well at all.

How ill do you think she was to go against literally every maternal instinct in her body? It's not the actions of a well person.

Lisha

NiallSparky wrote: »

What a disgusting thing to do. It's impossible to have sympathy for someone who does that to their kids. There was absolutely no need to end their lives because she was depressed. Sickening.

Depression is an illness that can leave the person with an altered way of looking at things.
She obviously felt her life had no hope.
She knew she could not keep going.
For reasons you, I, and most other people will never understand, she felt the only way she could take care of her kids has to take them with her.
The way she looked at it, she truly believed she was doing the right thing.

It is horribly tragic and I cannot even imagine the suffering of her family and of the kids father and his family.

Amirani

Lisha wrote: »

Depression is an illness that can leave the person with an altered way of looking at things.
She obviously felt her life had no hope.
She knew she could not keep going.
For reasons you, I, and most other people will never understand, she felt the only way she could take care of her kids has to take them with her.
The way she looked at it, she truly believed she was doing the right thing.

I don't care if that's what she believes, it doesn't give it any justification for killing innocent people. She's just as bad as any other murderer in my eyes.

Catphish

So tragic. She must have been in an awful way to go through with doing that to her children and herself. She was a beautiful young woman, with beautiful young children. Between this and those poor people in Boston, I've a sad today

Madam_X

Sigh. Who on earth would say it's "justified"...?

Improved mental health services and those kids might still be here. Although it's easy for me to say that when I don't work in the implementation of mental health services.
Just because people are saying a mental breakdown caused this (which it very much looks like) though, doesn't mean they're saying it's somehow less horrible and cruel of her, and are going soft on her. Cause identification isn't excuse.
Jesus Christ their poor dad... :-/

dark crystal

NiallSparky wrote: »

I don't care if that's what she believes, it doesn't give it any justification for killing innocent people. She's just as bad as any other murderer in my eyes.

Unless you've been through the utter hell of chronic depression, you can't even begin to understand how it changes someone's perception of life and death.

Nobody is justifying the murder of innocent children - it's an abominable thing to do - but she must have been completely out of her mind to commit such a desperate act. Killing your children and then throwing yourself from a building isn't something any sane, rational mother would do.

L.Jenkins

Madam_X wrote: »

Sigh. Who on earth would say it's "justified"...?

Improved mental health services and those kids might still be here. Although it's easy for me to say that when I don't work in the implementation of mental health services.
Just because people are saying a mental breakdown caused this (which it very much looks like) though, doesn't mean they're saying it's somehow less horrible and cruel of her, and are going soft on her. Cause identification isn't excuse.
Jesus Christ their poor dad... :-/

The sad fact of the matter concerning mental health is, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink nor can you force a young mother into services she doesn't want through her own clouded thinking. It's tragic that 3 children and an unborn child died, but improved services is only one key factor in a whole list of what's needed to prevent suicide and a tragic event like this happening again.

Catphish

Itzy wrote: »

The sad fact of the matter concerning mental health is, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink nor can you force a young mother into services she doesn't want through her own clouded thinking. It's tragic that 3 children and an unborn child died, but improved services is only one key factor in a whole list of what's needed to prevent suicide and a tragic event like this happening again.

I doubt it has much to do with not wanting to get help. Depression comes with many other issues, and if the person is severely depressed the level of despair is what clouds judgement. I don't think it's an active choice not to get help, it's not even on the radar for some.

bhamsteve

This case acts as a warning to us all, to act immediately if a friend or loved one threatens suicide or harm to others.

L.Jenkins

Catphish wrote: »

I doubt it has much to do with not wanting to get help. Depression comes with many other issues, and if the person is severely depressed the level of despair is what clouds judgement. I don't think it's an active choice not to get help, it's not even on the radar for some.

That's clarified my own thinking on the article and her actions.

bhamsteve wrote: »

This case acts as a warning to us all, to act immediately if a friend or loved one threatens suicide or harm to others.

That was my initial thought when I seen she had sent messages. It's hard to know if any of her friends had seen the warning and tried to act on it in time.

bhamsteve

Itzy wrote: »

That's clarified my own thinking on the article and her actions.



That was my initial thought when I seen she had sent messages. It's hard to know if any of her friends had seen the warning and tried to act on it in time.

There's no way to know, and it would be unfair to try and apportion blame, but a warning it is. One phone call to the police last night and we wouldn't be reading about this today.

Just to the other point, under the Mental Health Act you can force a young mother into treatment/custody if it is deemed necessary for her safety or the safety of others.

SEPT 23 1989

If you want to end your life do it alone

murdering innocent children disgusts me

xzanti

RIP... tragic beyond words.. my heart goes out to the family

Vicar in a tutu

I think she was an incredibly spiteful person, I have so much sympathy for people that commit suicide etc, But you do not drag innocent young children into it, lots of people have mental problems, but you dont see them murdering their children, surely at first thought of killing them she would of said to herself ''I need help'' , How could you look into 3 beautiful little childrens faces and decide to kill them?. I think in her mind it was'' if he cant have me, he's not having the kids either, this will make him sorry etc etc'' There is absolutely no excuse for murdering children and taking away their future from them because you cant go on.

MagicMarker

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

lots of people have mental problems, but you dont see them murdering their children

Do you think this has never happened before or something?

It's happened lots of times in the past and it will continue to happen.

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

surely at first thought of killing them she would of said to herself ''I need help'' , How could you look into 3 beautiful little childrens faces and decide to kill them?.

Yeah, because insane people always think rationally.

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

I think in her mind it was'' if he cant have me, he's not having the kids either, this will make him sorry etc etc''

You don't know shít.

Da Shins Kelly

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

I think she was an incredibly spiteful person, I have so much sympathy for people that commit suicide etc, But you do not drag innocent young children into it, lots of people have mental problems, but you dont see them murdering their children, surely at first thought of killing them she would of said to herself ''I need help'' , How could you look into 3 beautiful little childrens faces and decide to kill them?. I think in her mind it was'' if he cant have me, he's not having the kids either, this will make him sorry etc etc'' There is absolutely no excuse for murdering children and taking away their future from them because you cant go on.

I seriously doubt this is the first time that a parent has killed their own child...

Everyone with mental problems is different, so saying that "a lot of people have mental problems and don't murder their children" is not really appreciating the complexity and depths of mental illness. What she did is not excusable, but to be driven to murder her own children, there must have been something very, very wrong there.

Vicar in a tutu

MagicMarker wrote: »

Do you think this has never happened before or something?

It's happened lots of times in the past and it will continue to happen.


I know that sadly.



Yeah, because insane people always think rationally.


No but they can go get help before it gets to the point of murdering their children. There are so many people out there with mental health problems, and they go get themselves looked after, they dont let it get worse and worse until they do something like this. Its something they owe to their children at least, to have a happy healthy parent. A responsibility.


You don't know shít.

Well I think i'm allowed have a guess. Excuse me for being furious that this woman is getting so much sympathy, she murdered her children.

Vicar in a tutu

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I seriously doubt this is the first time that a parent has killed their own child...

Everyone with mental problems is different, so saying that "a lot of people have mental problems and don't murder their children" is not really appreciating the complexity and depths of mental illness. What she did is not excusable, but to be driven to murder her own children, there must have been something very, very wrong there.

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

Trudiha

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

...but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

Sadly, this isn't always the case. Sometimes, folks with mental health problems can't think logically or reasonably.

MagicMarker

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

Again, you don't really seem to have a clue what you're talking about.

herisson

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

But do you not understand that sometimes people are so affected by their mental illness that their view of reality is distorted? That they thinks its normal for them to feel like this (not the killing your kids part). They think that its the only way out. It's up to them to realise they need the help but in a lot of cases they are so consumed by it they can't see that they need help.

Vicar in a tutu

Pixie-Fairy wrote: »

But do you not understand that sometimes people are so affected by their mental illness that their view of reality is distorted? That they thinks its normal for them to feel like this (not the killing your kids part). They think that its the only way out. It's up to them to realise they need the help but in a lot of cases they are so consumed by it they can't see that they need help.

Of course I can understand, and I had sympathy for her up until she murdered her children, obviously suicide isnt the kind of thing you mull over for a second, it's something you agonizingly think about, and I have never judged anybody before for commiting suicide, as we never know what's going on, but I really can't muster any sympathy for her because she took away the lives and chances of 3 little children, it is incredibly selfish and that's really just my stance on it.

Vicar in a tutu

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course I can understand, and I had sympathy for her up until she murdered her children, obviously suicide isnt the kind of thing you mull over for a second, it's something you agonizingly think about, and I have never judged anybody before for commiting suicide, as we never know what's going on, but I really can't muster any sympathy for her because she took away the lives and chances of 3 little children, it is incredibly selfish and that's really just my stance on it.

The bit in bold is important

dark crystal

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

But many women fear they'll be institutionalized and/or their children will be taken from them if they seek help.

Some information on what might cause a mother to take such drastic actions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis

Andrea Yates methodically drowned her 5 children in a bathtub in her Texas home on June 20, 2001. Her mental health began to deteriorate with the birth of each of her children, combined with other external stressors. She attempted suicide twice and was hospitalized twice in a psychiatric facility in 1999 after delivering her fourth child. Yates was warned against having any more children, but conceived approximately 7 weeks later. Three months after the birth of her fifth child and shortly after the death of her father, she began to rapidly degenerate. She was hospitalized twice more, and eventually released with orders that she should not be left alone. During an hour when her husband had left for work and her mother-in-law was scheduled to arrive, she killed all five of her children. She was consequently committed to a high-security psychiatric hospital

Without knowing the facts about this woman's mental health (it mentions depression only passingly in the article), this could explain what drove her to do the unthinkable.

herisson

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course I can understand, and I had sympathy for her up until she murdered her children, obviously suicide isnt the kind of thing you mull over for a second, it's something you agonizingly think about, and I have never judged anybody before for commiting suicide, as we never know what's going on, but I really can't muster any sympathy for her because she took away the lives and chances of 3 little children, it is incredibly selfish and that's really just my stance on it.

Of course we never know what's going on. But the point I was making is the fact that sometimes people cant see that they need help. Sometimes they are so absorbed in the illness they have no hope and unfortunately some people resort to suicide.

I don't have sympathy for her after killing her kids. And I'm not defending her as much as my posts look like I am. I'm just stating that its not easy to realise you need help if you are so badly affected. Of course she needed help but it was up to her to get it. You can't exactly force someone to get help, it just drives them back further.

I hate the fact that she killed her kids. They had their whole lives ahead of them. Having a mental illness is no excuse for it, she took away 3 innocent lives at the end of the day.

Czarcasm

This suggests to me that the murders were pre-meditated-

Friends said the 23-year-old had been gripped by depression since splitting from their dad Craig McLelland and the day before the deaths she had posted a chilling message on Facebook warning she might harm them.

This suggests to me that she knew she needed help-

Karleigh Burlingham, 20, who knew Fiona, said: “She was friendly with my sister Kayleigh and she sent a Facebook message to her last night, saying that she was down and had nobody to talk to.

Choosing to take one's own life is one thing, choosing to pre-meditatively take another person's life is quite another thing entirely.

The fact that her family, friends and neighbours knew this was going on and chose to do nothing makes the whole thing even worse.

Da Shins Kelly

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

People with severe mental illnesses are not likely to think rationally about something like this. Again, saying that she should have stopped and thought about the fact that she was hurting her children is not seeing how awful and all-consuming mental illness can be. Depression is a seriously debilitating illness. Getting help for it can be one of the hardest steps - some people have become so used to feeling the way that they do that they think it's normal, or some are literally crippled by it and cannot move from their beds, nevermind go to a doctor about it. If she was suffering a psychotic break, there was absolutely no way she was thinking straight and could have had the clarity of mind to realise what she was doing. Unfortunately, people with mental illnesses do occasionally end up hurting themselves and others, often under the impression that they're doing the right thing. It's not an excuse, but it just highlights even further how important the research and treatment of mental health is.

wolfpawnat

Sadly infanticide-suicide is all too prevalent and common here in Ireland, happening far too often, by both fathers and mothers and in some cases both together. My heart goes out to her and her family, she was clearly in a very bad place. Post, and indeed Pre-natal depression are horrific things and so many women suffer it, and now it has been proven to affect fathers too! Family should have heeded the warnings, but at the same time, hindsight is great foresight. I hope it is a lesson to us all.

It is easy to see where peoples anger comes into it too. Innocent children that did not deserve a tragic end. The mother was not well, she was not thinking straight, I have no doubt in her full senses she would more than likely never consider hurting her children, but she wasn't in her full senses, so all sensical arguments are invalid. But yes, it is understandable to be angry for the children, just try to accept the mother was not herself at that time.

I hope the little angels are at peace even with their tragic end

HondaSami

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

If you want to end your life do it alone

murdering innocent children disgusts me

No one agrees with it but she is their mother and she did not want to leave them, we don't know what she was thinking but id imagine she did it because she loves them and not because she wanted to murder them.

My heart goes out to the children's father and all their families.

Galwayguy35

I notice in the media and it seems here as well that when a woman kills her kids it's called "tragic" but when a man does it he is rightly called a murderer.

dark crystal

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I notice in the media and it seems here as well that when a woman kills her kids it's called "tragic" but when a man does it he is rightly called a murderer.

The murder of innocent children is always tragic, no matter who commits it.

Gorilla Rising

HondaSami wrote: »

No one agrees with it but she is their mother and she did not want to leave them, we don't know what she was thinking but id imagine she did it because she loves them and not because she wanted to murder them

Nobody will bat an eyelid at this because of the sympathy towards the woman, but as with other posts, it's mere speculation.

Personally, I don't believe that every single incident like this is the same and the people who kill their children don't all do it because they're feeling the exact same way. To think so shows even more of a lack of understanding in my opinion.

Some may do it out of spite, pre-meditation etc and some are genuinely helpless and have a valid (within the realms of depression) reason for doing so.

wolfpawnat

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I notice in the media and it seems here as well that when a woman kills her kids it's called "tragic" but when a man does it he is rightly called a murderer.

I think to ensure equality these days it is just called infanticide. How I wish such a word never needed to exist. There has been bias in the past, but it is changing these days. As I stated, it is now officially recognised that fathers too suffer PND.

HondaSami

fortune wookiee wrote: »

Nobody will bat an eyelid at this because of the sympathy towards the woman, but as with other posts, it's mere speculation.

Personally, I don't believe that every single incident like this is the same and the people who kill their children don't all do it because they're feeling the exact same way. To think so shows even more of a lack of understanding in my opinion.

Some may do it out of spite, pre-meditation etc and some are genuinely helpless and have a valid (within the realms of depression) reason for doing so.

I agree and im sure we will hear more about this in the next few weeks, her relationship with the father will be scrutinised and yes some probably do it out of spite but i guess it makes us feel better to think it's out of love.

Madam_X

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I notice in the media and it seems here as well that when a woman kills her kids it's called "tragic" but when a man does it he is rightly called a murderer.

I didn't see much coverage like that re the man in West Cork recently but there were such attitudes all right towards the father of Deirdre Crowley and John Hogan which I found too simplistic.
While obviously nothing excuses killing their children, the reasons for it cannot be ignored... in order to prevent it happening again. They seemed like extremely troubled men. Still obviously responsible for their actions, but something led to those actions, whether it be mental breakdown, desperation, both. Saying "Murdering bastard, **** his state of mind or circumstances" is an opinion people are entitled to have, but it's not a very constructive one.
Unfortunately there are cases of child killing which seem to be based on nothing but utter cruelty/callousness (e.g. Mick Philpott) but I think in the cases of the above, it's more complex. It's not cruelty that motivated them - well not Christopher Crowley anyway, bit harder to figure out Hogan. Crowley didn't want to be estranged from his daughter any longer so, tragically, did the ultimate to ensure that.

Re this woman, if mental illness was at the root of it: "She should have sought help when things started to get on top of her" - it doesn't always work like that. Sometimes a mental breakdown messes up a person's head so much that they don't even realise they're ill. Those people who go on about the CIA fitting a chip in their heads etc - they fully believe this is true, even though it's so absurd. To them, it makes perfect sense - the illness is that severe.
Maybe she did it just out of spite, but come on... doubtful.

As for selfish, yeh it was, but doubtfully selfish in the sense of "Feck everyone, I'll do what I like" - you don't kill your children and then yourself, going completely against your natural instincts, just to be a selfish asshole.