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saudi man sentenced to paralysis

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    #92
    For Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭For Paws


    Can crime be eradicated ?. Nope

    Can 'the causes of crime' be eradicated ?. Nope

    But we can minimize crime by more severe prison conditions and by addressing the causes of crime.

    Sick of potholes & uneven local roads ; bring in road gangs.
    People sent to prison should be contributing to society, not just sitting around waiting for their (early) release date.
    A few hours every day in a quarry, followed by a few hours in a classroom.
    A combination of a prison regime that gives something to society, provides a more meaningful punishment, and breaks the cycle of re-offending by providing education (pass your Inter / Group / Leaving to earn early release).
    Add post release support & you're halfway to stopping the next crime.

    If the State spent as much helping the victims of crime as it spends on housing criminals, that'd help too.


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    #93
    Brownhead
    Site Banned Posts: 21 ✭Brownhead


    A friend of mine worked in Saudi some years ago. She said it is very safe. if she left her handbag down in the market square, it would stay there all day and not be stolen. There were no drunken fights, rapes or stabbings.


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    #94
    srm23
    Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭srm23


    if they bring this in, there won't be a walking man left in Limerick!

    Oscar Pistorious should be shot through a bathroom door, but only having been forced to arrange a Valentine's surprise for his assailant, who must also agree to have legs amputated.


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    #95
    Ranicand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Ranicand


    Brownhead wrote: »
    A friend of mine worked in Saudi some years ago. She said it is very safe. if she left her handbag down in the market square, it would stay there all day and not be stolen. There were no drunken fights, rapes or stabbings.

    See that is what I was saying.

    And people saying strong punishments do not prevent crime.

    I can tell you one thing this man won't do it again.


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    #96
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    People say strong punishment doesn't prevent or deter crime because they 1) Swallow twisted statistics without opening their eyes and 2) It's more comfortable to believe that society shouldn't have to shoulder the responsibility of actually punishing people.

    For me the latter is the more morally abject.

    I'm reminded of Orwell: The people who believe this stuff must be from the intelligentsia; no ordinary man could be such a fool.


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    #97
    DylanII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭DylanII


    I didnt read the whole tread, but I wouldnt have an issue with this type of punishment if he wasn't so young at the time and if he hadnt already served 10 years in prison.


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    #98
    Ranicand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Ranicand


    catallus wrote: »
    I'm reminded of Orwell: The people who believe this stuff must be from the intelligentsia; no ordinary man could be such a fool.



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    #99
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Puts real meaning to a "Victim Impact statement"


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    #100
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Ranicand wrote: »
    This will make people in that country THINK before they commit such a crime.
    bulls//t, these punishments never work as a deterrant, never have, never will
    Ranicand wrote: »
    One criminal suffers but the fear this will instill may save many potential victims.
    rubbish
    Ranicand wrote: »
    Our system is hundred times worse because the punishment is a joke.
    no it isn't, but yes the punishments for serious crimes are to lenient.
    Ranicand wrote: »
    attacks and murders all over the place
    stop talking crap, this is a complete load of nonsense

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #101
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    catallus wrote: »
    People say strong punishment doesn't prevent or deter crime because they 1) Swallow twisted statistics without opening their eyes and 2) It's more comfortable to believe that society shouldn't have to shoulder the responsibility of actually punishing people.

    For me the latter is the more morally abject.

    I'm reminded of Orwell: The people who believe this stuff must be from the intelligentsia; no ordinary man could be such a fool.

    And what makes you such an expert on the matter?


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    #102
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,121 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    catallus wrote: »
    People say strong punishment doesn't prevent or deter crime because they 1) Swallow twisted statistics without opening their eyes and 2) It's more comfortable to believe that society shouldn't have to shoulder the responsibility of actually punishing people.

    For me the latter is the more morally abject.

    I'm reminded of Orwell: The people who believe this stuff must be from the intelligentsia; no ordinary man could be such a fool.

    Depends on what you mean by "strong" punishment.

    Are the statistics that are being swallowed merely the ones who don't adree with yoru personal approach, or have you got example sof this? Come to think of it, do you have statistics? Do you have anything to support the idea that fear works as a deterent?

    Or are you simply more uncomfortable with the idea that fear might NOT work and if it doesn't you might actually have to actually sit down and consider the alternatives?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #103
    Humans eh!
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Humans eh!


    Great thread, very interesting posts from all angles on this debate.
    The solution is obvious, the implementation is difficult.

    Make crime not pay.

    It sounds so simple and yet it could be.
    I wonder how many Saudis are going around breaking into old/vulnerable peoples houses with 80+ previous convictions under their belt.

    Answer = F*ck All

    Especially now in these times where society is suffering because when money was plentiful Victorian era prison spaces were considered adequate.
    We have a very perpetrator centric attitude in this country and that needs to change. Locking people up is a waste of time, money and effort in rehabilitation.
    Work.
    Chain gangs (not literally) but workforces for society is what we need to aim for. Remission, sure, once you have earned it.
    When the prisoners of the future are put to the task of righting the wrongs of the criminals of the present then we will see things even out.
    The legal system in Ireland serves one purpose,
    To perpetuate and enrich the legal system of Ireland.

    But Ireland is one of the most conservative repressed nations on earth, and we won't rock the boat, no matter how much injustice prevails.

    Much to gain, the few have. (say that again - in a Yoda voice!)


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    #104
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    catallus wrote: »
    People say strong punishment doesn't prevent or deter crime because they 1) Swallow twisted statistics without opening their eyes and 2) It's more comfortable to believe that society shouldn't have to shoulder the responsibility of actually punishing people.

    .

    ..or 3) - society has tried all the most weird, nasty tortures you can imagine as punishment, and it didn't work.


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    #105
    Suckler
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Suckler


    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    We have some 'eye for an eye' laws here. The CAB can sieze assets from criminals who 'likely' obtained them via criminal acts or the proceeds of such.

    So, a criminal steals from someone, and the CAB steals from the criminal.

    That analogy is incorrect. There are legal procedures in place before the CAB can legally seize any assets. The CAB have to show that the proceeds have not been earned through legal means.


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    #106
    Suckler
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Brownhead wrote: »
    A friend of mine worked in Saudi some years ago. She said it is very safe. if she left her handbag down in the market square, it would stay there all day and not be stolen. There were no drunken fights, rapes or stabbings.

    Some of this is true some a consequence of the controlled media. Fighting & stabbings occur it is not reported. Drunken fights are only rare because it is a "dry" state. Alcohol is usually home brewed and you don't advertise the fact that you have been consuming the stuff.
    If you are found to be fighting etc. You'll find yourself in a remote prison sharing a cell with 40-50 others but with a capacity for 2/3 of that. You are dealt with if and when the police want to. You might get some food.
    The issue of rape is extremely difficult to verify; again crimes against women in some regions are just not reported. What we regard as statutory rape they see as marriage.


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    #107
    HHobo
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭HHobo


    THFC wrote: »
    While still wrong, it's completely different. The crime in question was likely an act of rage, while paedophilia usually is more inherently evil. Apples and oranges, but I agree to an extent, both wrong.

    It must be nice to be able to intuit the motives/motivations of people you have never met and know next to nothing about.


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    #108
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    catallus wrote: »
    I'm reminded of Orwell: The people who believe this stuff must be from the intelligentsia; no ordinary man could be such a fool.
    Ah Orwell... a member of the intelligentsia himself, and born into the upper class, with an Eton education.
    I love him but find his criticism of the groups he was part of, as if he was an exception, and his "affinity" with the "proles", to be seriously hypocritical.
    Humans eh! wrote:
    Ireland is one of the most conservative repressed nations on earth
    No it isn't. Saudi Arabia is though.
    Suckler wrote: »
    Some of this is true some a consequence of the controlled media. Fighting & stabbings occur it is not reported. Drunken fights are only rare because it is a "dry" state. Alcohol is usually home brewed and you don't advertise the fact that you have been consuming the stuff.

    If you are found to be fighting etc. You'll find yourself in a remote prison sharing a cell with 40-50 others but with a capacity for 2/3 of that. You are dealt with if and when the police want to. You might get some food.

    The issue of rape is extremely difficult to verify; again crimes against women in some regions are just not reported. What we regard as statutory rape they see as marriage.
    Yeh it's amusing to see people hold up Saudi Arabia, where people are terrorised into not daring to step out of line (and that includes sorcery and homosexual sex) and where women and migrant workers are treated worse than ****, as the ideal. Of course they'd sh1t themselves if such a regime was brought in here and would beg to have things back to how they are now.


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    #109
    noddyone2
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭noddyone2


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well isnt prison supposed to be torture also ? My only problem with this is if it were in Ireland the cost involved in looking after him . You also have to take into account he was 14 when he did it.
    Why does being 14 when he done it excuse him? The victim is paralysed for life.


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    #110
    HHobo
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭HHobo


    ScumLord wrote: »
    My problem with this is the state is saying it's wrong to stab and paralyse someone yet is fully prepared to sink to that level itself. The punishment drags every citizen in that country down to the level of the criminal that stabbed the victim in the back.

    This is nonsense. The state says that locking someone in a small room against their will is wrong yet is prepared to sink to that level itself. The punishment drags every citizen in that country down to the level of the criminal that imprisons their victims. See how stupid that sounds.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    They are succuming to the baying mob and that's all. It's primitive justice that has no consideration to reducing suffering, reducing crime and justice is nowhere to be seen with such a sentence.

    Are our prisons "succuming to the baying mob"

    Personally I think criminals should be punished. It's old fashioned I'll grant you but what I would call "just"


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    #111
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,495 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    AH answer. Terrible ideal, here he would get disability, a free pass and the person looking after him would get carers allowance, rabble rabble rabble.

    Actual answer, their prisons are nowhere near the standard of ours so it would be a version of hell. What he did was disgusting, but he was only a kid doing it.

    If it was a serial rapist or a serial killer, I would agree with something along these lines, but not for someone being a stupid kid.

    But the man the stupid kid paralysed has a long horrible life ahead of him. Maybe paralasys isnt a good form of punishment but he does still need to be punished, no matter what age he committed the crime at. Jamie Bolgers killers were very young when they committed his murder and theyre still being punished a long time later


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    #112
    Weathering
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Weathering


    Does a wheelchair come as part of the package. .??


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    #113
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    But the man the stupid kid paralysed has a long horrible life ahead of him. Maybe paralasys isnt a good form of punishment but he does still need to be punished, no matter what age he committed the crime at. Jamie Bolgers killers were very young when they committed his murder and theyre still being punished a long time later

    You think 10 years of Saudi prison is not punishment ?
    Hell most people reading this would think ten years of Saudi normal life to be imprisoning, never mind their prisons


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    #114
    smirker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭smirker


    Madam_X wrote: »
    No it isn't. Saudi Arabia is though.

    Yeh it's amusing to see people hold up Saudi Arabia, where people are terrorised into not daring to step out of line (and that includes sorcery and homosexual sex) and where women and migrant workers are treated worse than ****, as the ideal. Of course they'd sh1t themselves if such a regime was brought in here and would beg to have things back to how they are now.

    In is not amusing for people to think that our society where there is a risk of being attacked by drunks at night if walking around a town centre is all right. Every weekend there are reports in the papers of people being attacked outside a pub, disco or wherever. Women in this country cant walk the streets of the capital city without meeting chuggers, muggers drug addicts and handbag snatchers. At night they also have rapists to contend with and random attackers to contend with. We should clean up our own backyard before condemning another country.


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    #115
    Stereomaniac
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Stereomaniac


    I think that 10 years of Saudi prison is a very bad punishment, but that in this case it might not be enough. The man is eternally paralysed, so should the perpetrator not be imprisoned eternally?


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    #116
    Suckler
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Suckler


    smirker wrote: »
    In is not amusing for people to think that our society where there is a risk of being attacked by drunks at night if walking around a town centre is all right.

    But nobody has said it's alright. You missed the point entirely that Saudi Arabia shouldn't be held up as some beacon of righteousness against crime. I'm all for improving our society but I won't be looking to an archaic one for advice.
    smirker wrote: »
    Women in this country cant walk the streets of the capital city without meeting chuggers, muggers drug addicts and handbag snatchers. At night they also have rapists to contend with and random attackers to contend with. We should clean up our own backyard before condemning another country.

    Hyperbole and gross exaggeration. Women can and do walk the streets of the capital without being mugged raped robbed or even spoken to. They don't have to contend with rapists. For example I met a woman out walking yesterday, we exchanged pleasantries and kept on going our separate way without the urge to rob and rape arising at all, wasn't that amazing.:rolleyes:


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    #117
    smirker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭smirker


    Suckler wrote: »
    Hyperbole and gross exaggeration. Women can and do walk the streets of the capital without being mugged raped robbed or even spoken to. They don't have to contend with rapists. For example I met a woman out walking yesterday, we exchanged pleasantries and kept on going our separate way without the urge to rob and rape arising at all, wasn't that amazing.:rolleyes:

    Your pleasantry might be her rape threat. How do you know she didn't walk away shaking in fear?


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    #118
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    HHobo wrote: »
    Yes, I sure he had much happier outcomes in mind when he stabbed his friend in the back. Are you seriously representing the position that a bad unforseen outcome from stabbing someone is a good reason for leniency? Perhaps you feel that death is preferable to paralysis? Most people who stab others have this end in mind. Is stabbing someone to death less "sick" than intentionally causing paralysis?

    Do we know why he stabbed him? Just picked up the knife and stabbed for a laugh? There are probably quite a few in prison here, for defending themselves, but would seem guilty when only half the story is heard.


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    #119
    Suckler
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Suckler


    smirker wrote: »
    Your pleasantry might be her rape threat. How do you know she didn't walk away shaking in fear?

    Because I live in the real world. You're welcome to join us anytime.

    Please highlight the "threat" in this instance;

    Lady "Hello"
    Me "Hi"


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    #120
    smirker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭smirker


    Suckler wrote: »
    Because I live in the real world. You're welcome to join us anytime.

    Please highlight the "threat" in this instance;

    Lady "Hello"
    Me "Hi"

    It all depends on how it is delivered. Did you block her path and stare at her genital area and say "hello" with a wink and a leer? You are probably not going to admit that anyway so my point still stands.


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    #121
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Ah Orwell... a member of the intelligentsia himself, and born into the upper class, with an Eton education.
    I love him but find his criticism of the groups he was part of, as if he was an exception, and his "affinity" with the "proles", to be seriously hypocritical.

    In fairness the man fought in the Spanish Civil War on the side of the socialists, he put his life and freedom on the line for his beliefs in an egalitarian society. He was far from superficial in his affinity with the working class and struggles of social justice. As Lenin said (himself from a middle class background), it isn't the class you're from but the one you're alligned with that's important.


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