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saudi man sentenced to paralysis

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ranicand wrote: »

    The reason this line is treated with utter contempt is because it is seen as two fingers up at the victim.

    No its not. Its the opposite. To ignore what we know are contributing factors to criminality is a huge two fingers to the future victims of crime that could have been avoided.


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    #63
    Ranicand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Ranicand


    ScumLord wrote: »
    That's a very naive way of looking at it. The causes of crime are many and poverty is a huge contributing factor.

    If you ended up destitute on the street you'd turn to crime pretty quickly. No person is going to starve to death just because there's a line in a book that says they should die before they steel.

    Yes I am not denying that.

    However killing somebody is totally different.

    Or stabbing them in the back.

    And you will notice I said serious crime not petty crime.


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    #64
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Ranicand wrote: »
    Yes I am not denying that.

    However killing somebody is totally different.

    Or stabbing them in the back.

    And you will notice I said serious crime not petty crime.
    My problem with this is the state is saying it's wrong to stab and paralyse someone yet is fully prepared to sink to that level itself. The punishment drags every citizen in that country down to the level of the criminal that stabbed the victim in the back.

    They are succuming to the baying mob and that's all. It's primitive justice that has no consideration to reducing suffering, reducing crime and justice is nowhere to be seen with such a sentence.


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    #65
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    I'm sure the judges who passed the sentence took all the pending factors into consideration and I'm guessing it is because the victim of this grotesque crime wishes for retribution that the possibility is being mooted.

    A poster on here made the very good point about the causes of crime: crime is caused by people committing crime. Simple as that; those people who say that poverty causes crime should be disgusted with themselves for staining the reputations of the poor. It is sickening to hear people claiming poor people are more criminally minded than their wealthier fellow-citizens. But I suppose it is a useful lie if we want our police running around like keystone cops after a small number of repeat offenders while the better-off in society commit their own crimes in broad daylight without fear of censure.

    Also, it is a nice idea for people to blame crime on poverty when the only solution offered is to further control the lives and erode the rights of the poor.

    EDIT: some posters are pretending to be dense; I should have been more careful in my wording and said "Crime is caused by people committing offences."


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    #66
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    catallus wrote: »
    A poster on here made the very good point about the causes of crime: crime is caused by people committing crime. Simple as that;
    It's not as simple as that, if it where there would be no crime because of a catch 22 situation that you have to have experience committing crime before you can commit crime.

    those people who say that poverty causes crime should be disgusted with themselves for staining the reputations of the poor.
    I'm not implying you have to be poor to commit crime it's just that if you are poor you have more of an incentive to commit crime. People from poor areas don't take to education as easily due to the influences of other criminals in their area, without an education and wearing the uniform of the underprivileged they have little chance of getting a job. All these kind of factors play into it being easier for them to live a life of crime than try and break into the working classes.

    There are reasons for white collar crime too, there's always an incentive to break the laws, people just don't decide to do it because it's in their nature.


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    #67
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Do we know how the Saudi's plan to administer the Paralysis to the 24-year-old man?

    Like will they stab him in the back (in a controlled manner), or maybe throw him off a tall building? or what?


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    #68
    Ranicand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Ranicand


    ScumLord wrote: »
    My problem with this is the state is saying it's wrong to stab and paralyse someone yet is fully prepared to sink to that level itself. The punishment drags every citizen in that country down to the level of the criminal that stabbed the victim in the back.

    They are succuming to the baying mob and that's all. It's primitive justice that has no consideration to reducing suffering, reducing crime and justice is nowhere to be seen with such a sentence.

    Well it's just a pity for him he did not commit his crime in an enlightened country such as ours.

    He might have gotten 3 years or so and a training course.

    If he was form Foxrock or something he might have had his sentence delayed so he could complete his exams.


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    #69
    m.j.w
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭m.j.w


    ScumLord wrote: »
    My problem with this is the state is saying it's wrong to stab and paralyse someone yet is fully prepared to sink to that level itself. The punishment drags every citizen in that country down to the level of the criminal that stabbed the victim in the back.

    They are succuming to the baying mob and that's all. It's primitive justice that has no consideration to reducing suffering, reducing crime and justice is nowhere to be seen with such a sentence.



    Its wrong to imprision someone aganist there will and thats what going to prison is so is that dragging our country down?


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    #70
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    davet82 wrote: »
    anybody in support of this type of punishment?

    Are you enjoying how your thread is going? :D


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    #71
    Ranicand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Ranicand


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Do we know how the Saudi's plan to administer the Paralysis to the 24-year-old man?

    Like will they stab him in the back (in a controlled manner), or maybe throw him off a tall building? or what?

    He will throw a dice numbers one to five will have different methods of achieving the desired effect.

    It he is lucky enough to throw a six he earns another throw.


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    #72
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    The only thing we know about the victim is that he was injured 10 years ago, and this further punishment is at his request. From that we can safely say that he's not coping very well at all.


    No no - you missed a point. He wants money. This punishment is only to be carried out if money is not paid over.


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    #73
    Big Pussy Bonpensiero
    Registered Users Posts: 7,776 ✭✭✭Big Pussy Bonpensiero


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Find any paedophile thread and I guarantee you people are calling for castration.
    While still wrong, it's completely different. The crime in question was likely an act of rage, while paedophilia usually is more inherently evil. Apples and oranges, but I agree to an extent, both wrong.


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    #74
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    m.j.w wrote: »
    Its wrong to imprision someone aganist there will and thats what going to prison is so is that dragging our country down?
    Why is it wrong? Some people plead guilty to their crimes and accept their punishment.


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    #75
    m.j.w
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭m.j.w


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Why is it wrong? Some people plead guilty to their crimes and accept their punishment.

    And alot of people dont plead guilty so therefore putting them in prision is holding them aganist thier will. Is that wrong to do?


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    #76
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    ScumLord wrote: »
    My problem with this is the state is saying it's wrong to stab and paralyse someone yet is fully prepared to sink to that level itself. The punishment drags every citizen in that country down to the level of the criminal that stabbed the victim in the back.

    They are succuming to the baying mob and that's all. It's primitive justice that has no consideration to reducing suffering, reducing crime and justice is nowhere to be seen with such a sentence.

    This talk of society "dragging itself down to the level" of the criminal is sanctimonious guff. It is the logic of the moral coward who is too precious to conceive any idea of punishment that would upset him. You place yourself in the shoes of a criminal and you cannot countenance a proper punishment, this is where the soft-touch "civilised justice" we live under comes from. And the criminal laughs all the way to their next suspended sentence.


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    #77
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users Posts: 9,167 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    Well... I suppose... that's Protestants for you...


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    #78
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,115 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    THFC wrote: »
    While still wrong, it's completely different. The crime in question was likely an act of rage, while paedophilia usually is more inherently evil. Apples and oranges, but I agree to an extent, both wrong.

    We're talkign about reactions to crime as oppose to crim itself. Saying that the criem is different doesn't really change anything.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #79
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    m.j.w wrote: »
    And alot of people dont plead guilty so therefore putting them in prision is holding them aganist thier will. Is that wrong to do?
    No, human society is a community, if you upset the community you traditionally had two options, leave and fend for yourself, or repay your debt to society. I agree with detention for a number of reasons but I'd rather criminals were rehabilitated rather than turned into better criminals by our justice system. Our system is by no means perfect, it's horribly flawed but it's still farer than an eye for an eye justice in a country I wouldn't trust to find the actual perpetrator of the crime.

    The US has some horrible examples of miscarriages of justice yet they have some of the most advanced criminal investigation systems in the world. In Saudi Arabia I wouldn't be surprised if they picked random people off the street and gave them some horrible punishment just to appease the mob and scare everyone else into submission.
    catallus wrote: »
    This talk of society "dragging itself down to the level" of the criminal is sanctimonious guff. It is the logic of the moral coward who is too precious to conceive any idea of punishment that would upset him. You place yourself in the shoes of a criminal and you cannot countenance a proper punishment, this is where the soft-touch "civilised justice" we live under comes from. And the criminal laughs all the way to their next suspended sentence.
    I want to see crime reduced, the only way of doing that is tackling the causes of criminality. I don't believe people are born evil or criminals and I have no interest in satisfying a primitive need for public persecution. Punishing crime might make you feel good but it won't stop more crime from happening. By all accounts it only get's worse. Rehabilitation and education reduce the amount of people that turn to crime.

    If you're happy to live in a violent society that uses the same tactics as the criminally insane to get retribution rather than solve problems, then maybe you'd like to spend some time in countries like saudi Arabia because most civilized societies are moving away from mob justice and you'll only be more and more disappointed with every passing day living in western democracies.


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    #80
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Ranicand wrote: »
    He will throw a dice numbers one to five will have different methods of achieving the desired effect.

    It he is lucky enough to throw a six he earns another throw.

    Public stoning?


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    #81
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I suppose they haven't thought about the care they'll have to provide the man after he's paralysed. They may just assume they can leave him to rot but I don't think it would work out that way and the guards wouldn't eventually rue the day they decided paralysing someone was a good idea.

    Half the time I wonder if saudi just decides to come up with a crazy punishment and troll the planet with it for a while?.

    That's not a very nice sentiment to be expressing about the Kingdom,ScumLord, and could be taken by many,to be offensive to Islamic folk as a whole.

    Remember Saudi Arabia is one of the great pillars of the Islamic World and for many is the centre of that world.

    http://www.saudiembassy.net/about/country-information/Islam/saudi_arabia_Islam_heartland.aspx
    The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is the heartland of Islam, the birthplace of its history, the site of the two holy mosques and the focus of Islamic devotion and prayer. Saudi Arabia is committed to preserving the Islamic tradition in all areas of government and society. Islam guides not only the lives of the people, but also the policies and functions of the government. The Holy Qur'an is the constitution of the Kingdom and Shari'ah (Islamic law) is the basis of the Saudi legal system.

    Even reading the OP's quoted BBC News piece reveals that nowhere has it been suggested that this punishment will be carried out,or even if it is being sought by the original victim.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22010122
    Saudi reports say the 24-year-old man could be paralysed from the waist down if he cannot pay his victim one million riyals (£250,000) in compensation.
    The law of qisas, or retribution, in Saudi Arabia means his victim can demand that he suffers exactly the same punishment as he caused.

    From my reading of the article it's Amnesty International whipping up a storm over provisions in shari'ah which they find objectionable.

    However,this opposition has to be placed alongside the widespread popularity of shari'ah throughout the Islamic World,along with it being an inherent part of most inter-Islamic conflicts now occuring.

    Respect for shari'ah,and it's relevance to Irish Islam is,of course,a valid question to pose to any Jehovah like,Islamic Witness who might come a-calling to your door seeking a switchover,or indeed to those manning the table outside Dublin's GPO next Saturday.

    Aside from that,I'd suggest leaving Saudi Arabia alone to do their own thing,and keep those well's a-pumpin !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #82
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    The sole purpose of the Criminal Law is to punish offenders: it has no other reason for existing; it has no other mandate or responsibility; it is only to punish wrongdoers; if he who breaks the law is not punished then he who obeys the law is cheated.

    "Tackling the causes" of criminality is the catch-call of the big-government power-chaser who wishes to encroach upon the freedom of citizens and lessen the sovereign freedoms of the individual which is the central and overriding characteristic of Western Democracy. Those who would use the criminal law to increase their power over the masses are the enemies of our civilization, wolves in sheeps clothing if you will.


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    #83
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Public stoning?

    I think some people won't be happy until public stoning and criminals fighting as gladiators is brought back in :(


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    #84
    schnitzelEater
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭schnitzelEater


    That'll learn him.


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    #85
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    I dont subscribe to the eye for an eye line of thought so dont agree with the Saudi punishment though I do think violent convicted offenders like muderers, rapists and fiddlers should do hard time and be made to feel it every second of their sentence. The Russians do it right I think this is how it should be done for violent offenders without resorting to killing them or stooping to their level of violence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQXM1Xwjaew


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    #86
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    "The justice system can't have it both ways: outlawing personal vengeance while at the same time devaluing legal punishment. The public places its faith in the state, but it is unworthy of that faith unless it can fully accept its role as proxy—the revenge denied to victims must be undertaken by the government, because states have assumed the task of punishment to be theirs alone. And yes, in cases of premeditated murder deemed "the worst of the worst," a penalty of death is what the wrongdoer deserves, what the victim is owed, and what the state should not hesitate in carrying out."

    http://chronicle.com/article/The-Case-for-Revenge/138155/

    I agree that it is a complicated issue, what gets to me is that some people seem to be falling over themselves to "help" criminals when the same sympathy is nowhere to be seen for the victims of crime.

    To say that people who break the law are some sort of sociological puzzle is an insult to the intelligence of everyone who has eyes to see what goes on in our society.


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    #87
    not yet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    allah is good.........


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    #88
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,115 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    not yet wrote: »
    allah is good.........

    "Dear Lord, Please save us from your followers........"

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #89
    gw80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭gw80


    bluewolf wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20959228
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18503550
    Great craic over there altogether


    f*%kin sorcery mind ya:pac:, get a grip,idiotic society


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    #90
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Barbaric stuff. Isn't organised religion wonderful.


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    #91
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    The causes can be examined until the cows come home; and naturally the people who are looking for explanations as to why people commit crime will come up with their results which invariably include treating the criminal with kindness and tenderness.

    I know a woman who was mugged (handbag snatch) a long time ago; it wasn't a major crime in any sense of the word; but it turned her from being an outgoing vivacious person into an introverted shut-in. She doesn't leave her house anymore. Where's her help? I'm not saying we should bend over backwards to help her recover from her ordeal, but she got nothing, as far as I can see.

    Now her attacker would be treated with kid-gloves. I'm just saying I see no justice at all.

    Crime pays. That's why it happens, from getting your car broken into, to having your house broken into, to robbing banks, to killing your enemy. It profits the criminal to break the law, that's precisely why he does it. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then what is it? It is a duck. And all the quacking on about "finding solutions" to criminal behaviour is spitting in the face of the honest law abiding citizen. Criminals are citizens too and they are free to do whatever they want, but if the law doesn't punish them when they break it, then what use is it?


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