Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

aare · 19-02-2013 08:12PM

Nodin wrote: »

I'm fully aware many have had terrible experiences. My concern would be to minimise risks for those involved, and I don't think thats best served by banning it.

Me too...*FREEDOM OF CHOICE* that means, the freedom to choose *NOT* to do something as well as the freedom to choose to do it...and LIKE IT OR NOT the two are inextricably linked...unless you can have the freedom to choose *to* do a thing, and be supported in doing it, you can never have true freedom to choose *not to* do it, and be supported in that.

The part everybody seems to be over looking is that plenty of people choose not to sell sex and STILL HAVE NO OTHER REASONABLE OPTIONS...

What about those people? Surely you fight to give THEM reasonable options a LONG time before you fight to force other people to stop selling sex that they freely choose to sell.

aare · 19-02-2013 08:16PM

SoupMonster wrote: »

Perhaps you would care to elucidate on the approach you suggest and allow your suggestions to be critiqued.

No problem, the approach I suggest is to let adults make their own free choice about whether or not they wish to sell or buy sex and support them in that.

There is already adequate legislation to cover the abuse of minors and all forms of coercion.

Or if you would rather critique the full version, be my guest:
http://aformersexworker.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/response-to-discussion-document-on-future-direction-of-prostitution-legislation4.doc

professore · 19-02-2013 08:20PM

IceFjoem wrote: »

Prostitutes aren't exactly an authority on social policy making. Other than "I have sex for money" I can't imagine they'd have a highly valuable input tbf.

That's what people said about black slaves in the confederate states, the Jews in Nazi Germany, etc, etc ...

CK73 · 19-02-2013 10:33PM

How do you know that Rachel is Romanion Czarcasm?

I don't think there is anything wrong with me protecting my income or my future and I will not bow down to the idea of letting go, just because I am doing fine.

You don't know that the majority are not, you are guessing, much as TORL and Ruhama are.

I've been working on my personal submission today and 6 pages in (hardly touched the sides) and there is no evidence to show that what you say is right in Ireland.

Me saying that the youngest person I have met is 22 is not nieve, it's a fact. I didn't say I believed her to be the youngest person working and wouldn't make such a claim, so stop twisting my words and making out I don't understand. I am fully aware that some people use sex as a quick fix to a problem and some are coerced and exploited, but that does not negate my real life experience, as an Escort who works by choice and is not badly affected by it.

It doesn't make my life any less valid either.

They are representing the trafficked woman. Now I'm here to represent me and women like me!

CK73 · 19-02-2013 10:40PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Seachmall I'm not ignoring you but can I come back to this later? I'm up to my tits here with work and this thread has been mentally draining and rather time consuming to be perfectly honest about it, so I'm not avoiding or ignoring the questions, just right now I have real life priorities that I have to put before what is essentially hypothetical discussion as I can't see any of us moving from our respective positions on the issue.

And there lies the difference. To you it is just a discussion. To me, it IS my life!

CK73 · 19-02-2013 10:54PM

Obviously I don't want to share too much of my past with you strangers, but I find it quite funny that I have had 2 of the other occupations we have touched base on. I served in the Army for 3 years and I was only 18 when I enrolled and I have also been a clown lol. Not a very good one I might add. I must be a sucker for roles that put me in danger and degrade me.

Czarcasm · 20-02-2013 12:04AM

CK73 wrote: »

How do you know that Rachel is Romanion Czarcasm?

The article linked in the OP mentions a 27 year old sex worker named Rachel, and then a couple of hours later a poster with the username "Sweet Rachel" registers on boards to post in this very thread. It is clear from her posts that her first language is not english, so it was hardly a stretch of mental gymnastics to conclude they were one and the same person.

I don't think there is anything wrong with me protecting my income or my future and I will not bow down to the idea of letting go, just because I am doing fine.

I never once suggested you HAD to bow down to anything now in all fairness.

You don't know that the majority are not, you are guessing, much as TORL and Ruhama are.

Ehh, I have a better idea than you do seeing as you have never met an unhappy sex worker. I have met scores of them. I've already stated that I don't have any association with TORL and Ruhuma and I'd prefer not to be lumped in with them thanks very much. As far as I'm concerned they're a crowd of crusty oddballs with about as firm a grasp of reality as you do.

I've been working on my personal submission today and 6 pages in (hardly touched the sides) and there is no evidence to show that what you say is right in Ireland.

Seriously? Your research then is just as flawed as the Justice Committee. I don't think that point needs any further comment as I'm at pains to keep this discussion respectful to all involved.

Me saying that the youngest person I have met is 22 is not nieve, it's a fact. I didn't say I believed her to be the youngest person working and wouldn't make such a claim, so stop twisting my words and making out I don't understand. I am fully aware that some people use sex as a quick fix to a problem and some are coerced and exploited, but that does not negate my real life experience, as an Escort who works by choice and is not badly affected by it.

I think you misread my point. I didn't twist your words either. Your point was that at 22 years of age and I assume you were quoting her, was that she was "milking it for all she could get and loving it". My point was that HER point of view was incredibly naive for a 22 year old and quite frankly to hear a young girl go on like that IS fcuking depressing. You disagree, I get that already.

It doesn't make my life any less valid either.

Where are you getting that from? Because I never said anything of the sort. That putting words in my mouth annoys of because I respect people equally, regardless of their occupation or circumstances. I made it clear at the start of the thread that I wasn't up on any high horse, though I may have come off as a sanctimonious prick to some in the meantime, rest assured that's not the case.

They are representing the trafficked woman. Now I'm here to represent me and women like me!

I'm only here doing the very same for myself and people I meet every day who are not being represented by either the justice committee, Ruhuma, TORL, or yourself.

SoupMonster · 20-02-2013 12:05AM

aare,
Thanks for that doc. I cannot say I read it all, but I did give a good skim.

I am in disagreement with you on two points.
1. Regarding workers criminal records, I believe any seller holding a criminal record for prostitution or soliciting should have it wiped.
2. Regarding any future criminalisation of buyers, I see no reason for anonymity. Maybe I am wrong here but is there any other offence where the offenders identity is kept secret?
3. Regarding education, I think there is a need for education of customers regarding what is legal and what is not (coercion, age limits). Enlist customers into policing the industry and ask them to engage in ethical punting.

Also I think your response to 'would regulation attract sex tourism' would have been better if you did not give the positive spin?

I agree with you entirely on the ease of entry/exit issue, any regulation or industry player that locks a worker into a 'contract' should be avoided. A worker should be totally free to cease work once they have met their target, and not locked into some brothel keepers contract.
I would not class two or even more women working together for safety/security/convenience as a brothel. But where 'management' takes 50%, dictates rostering, services, and prices, I find this objectionable.

I would, however, include some provision for demand reduction, even if it just a statement that the government aspires to a prostitution free society where all citizens dignity is respected.... something that inhibits players entering the market with expansionist policies. Perhaps all girls carry a health warning like cigarettes (joking). In reality attitudes to smoking have changed (especially in US) and attitudes to smacking kids have changed. Why can attitudes to prostitution not be changed so that demand is reduced? I know it reduces earning options, but that is my bias speaking.

See this news today. An earlier report said that the 16 year old was advertised as 'Lolita'. An ethical industry would include stiff sentences for pimping an underage (<18 or maybe < 21) girl, and any ethical customer who suspected she was too young and reported her for investigation. I think his 2.5 year sentence is laughable. I suspect that if these women were not escorts, he would be looking at a much longer sentence, especially since he was pimping Lolita. Unfortunately, I think you have an uphill battle on your hands to simply gain respect before the law.

The Th!ng · 20-02-2013 12:24AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm only here doing the very same for myself and people I meet every day who are not being represented by either the justice committee, Ruhuma, TORL, or yourself.

Czarcasm, did you make a written submission to the committee?

Czarcasm · 20-02-2013 12:40AM

CK73 wrote: »

And there lies the difference. To you it is just a discussion. To me, it IS my life!

And there lies the misguided assumption on your part. To me it is former life. I have a different life now, but I never forget where I came from, and it sure as hell wasn't the rosy picture you're painting like you just walked off the set of Belle du Jour. It is STILL very much a part of my life, and when I left off earlier saying I had real life priorities, I had just gotten a call from a polish girl whose boyfriend left her last week holding an 18 month old baby and she was calling to know could I accompany her to the CWO to translate for her because she had just spent an hour in the social welfare office trying to explain her situation to the social welfare clerk who didn't have a word of polish. This girl had no clue of her rights and entitlements and could easily have thought in order to keep a roof over her head and feed her child she could take up becoming a sex worker. At least now that she has her entitlements sorted, she has a choice now as to Whether sex work is a viable option for her or not. I'll let you guess which option she chose herself once she saw that she had alternatives with a support system in place to assist her to sort herself out and get her in a better position to be able to provide for herself and her child. That isn't where my involvement ends either. Should she decide to further her education I can help with that too, or work with childcare provisions in place with the HSE so that if she wants she can take up employment at some point in the future.

I could go on but sure do a post history search and you'll see that I work every day with people from disadvantaged backgrounds, homeless people, drug addicts and low income families to help them access the resources that are available to everybody to help them turn their lives around and give them the tools to work on their own Plan B.

This is on top of the commitments I have to give to my business to make my Plan B a success as well as my commitments to my family.

So yeah, this isn't just my life, it's something I'm incredibly passionate about, not just "I'm doing alright". It's something I can't help being committed to as it's very much a part of who I am!

SoupMonster · 20-02-2013 12:53AM

Nodin wrote: »

I'm fully aware many have had terrible experiences. My concern would be to minimise risks for those involved, and I don't think thats best served by banning it.

I agree, but I think that must be coupled with some attempt to eliminate the underlying issues that drive people to such extremes simply to survive. What kind of social safety net is need to help someone who turns tricks for Euro1.20, I would imagine this is manageable even for China, if awareness of the issue can be raised.

The same applies to Ireland. Where women must resort to survival sex, there must be an underlying problem that drives them to it, identify and address that issue. I don't think we are too poor as a country that we cannot take care of the most marginalised and vulnerable. (There is enough spare disposable cash to support 600 to 1000 escorts at Euro150 an hour).

Johro · 20-02-2013 12:54AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

OP you hardly expect the government to be seen to be encouraging prostitution do you?

Well we're all taking it up the a...
Oh never mind.

Czarcasm · 20-02-2013 01:13AM

The Th!ng wrote: »

Czarcasm, did you make a written submission to the committee?

I didn't Thing. To be honest I don't see the justice committee making one iota of a difference on the ground. I see it as nothing more than shuffling around a few papers to make it look like they are justifying their job titles. Being seen to be doing something rather than actually doing anything really.

I don't see any point in wasting my time typing up a thesis sized document that'll only be shuffled around with all the rest of the submissions, the end result being that things for the most part will carry on as normal for people with their heads so far up their collective asses that they fail to acknowledge what is actually happening on their front doorstep so to speak.

You don't need reams of submissions to tell you that something is very fcuking wrong if you just take off the damn blinkers and look around you every once in a while. I can only effect a small change in the area I work in, but unlike the likes of TORL and Ruhuma and even the justice committee, I won't expect any rubber medals for the work I do and you won't see me waste time chanting sex workers rights on the steps of the Dáil any time soon.

The fact that I can make even one person see that there are alternatives to becoming a sex worker, and giving them the information to be able to make more choices with their lives, that's all I want for anyone, that's good enough for me.

CruelCoin · 20-02-2013 09:24AM

SoupMonster wrote: »

And for the record, I believe the committee should have taken input from as many current and ex-prostitutes that they could get.

I sure they would have been thrilled to have a parade of barely clothed, bruised, drooling incoherant, high as pie, thousand-yard-stare women coming through. That would be constructive indeed.

CruelCoin · 20-02-2013 09:26AM

SoupMonster wrote: »

For a brief moment please consider seriously, how do you imagine these women feel knowing that they are so worthless in this socialist workers paradise. Knowing that a dog is more highly valued that all of them put together.

I feel worthless knowing that ex-drug dealers and gang-bangers (aka hip-hop stars) have gem encrusted "changs" worth more than my entire estate.

Why bring china into this? Its nothing new for some to be rich, and others to be poor.

SoupMonster · 20-02-2013 10:54AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

I sure they would have been thrilled to have a parade of barely clothed, bruised, drooling incoherant, high as pie, thousand-yard-stare women coming through. That would be constructive indeed.

Image reminds me of Benburb Street circa 1991. I thought they were bag-ladies until taxi driver said 'Imagine paying them for sex'.

CK73 · 20-02-2013 10:58AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

And there lies the misguided assumption on your part. To me it is former life. I have a different life now, but I never forget where I came from, and it sure as hell wasn't the rosy picture you're painting like you just walked off the set of Belle du Jour. It is STILL very much a part of my life, and when I left off earlier saying I had real life priorities, I had just gotten a call from a polish girl whose boyfriend left her last week holding an 18 month old baby and she was calling to know could I accompany her to the CWO to translate for her because she had just spent an hour in the social welfare office trying to explain her situation to the social welfare clerk who didn't have a word of polish. This girl had no clue of her rights and entitlements and could easily have thought in order to keep a roof over her head and feed her child she could take up becoming a sex worker. At least now that she has her entitlements sorted, she has a choice now as to Whether sex work is a viable option for her or not. I'll let you guess which option she chose herself once she saw that she had alternatives with a support system in place to assist her to sort herself out and get her in a better position to be able to provide for herself and her child. That isn't where my involvement ends either. Should she decide to further her education I can help with that too, or work with childcare provisions in place with the HSE so that if she wants she can take up employment at some point in the future.

I could go on but sure do a post history search and you'll see that I work every day with people from disadvantaged backgrounds, homeless people, drug addicts and low income families to help them access the resources that are available to everybody to help them turn their lives around and give them the tools to work on their own Plan B.

This is on top of the commitments I have to give to my business to make my Plan B a success as well as my commitments to my family.

So yeah, this isn't just my life, it's something I'm incredibly passionate about, not just "I'm doing alright". It's something I can't help being committed to as it's very much a part of who I am!

May I ask you if you are doing this voluntarily or if it is paid work? If it is voluntary then I'm impressed, as anyone who is in a situation like that needs help, although I don't know why the natural reaction would be to start Sex Work? It certainly wasn't for me, when I found myself on my own with a 4 year old.

I know there are people employed to do similar jobs to what you describe, there are also voluntary bodies. They are all commendable, as I don't think anyone should take on Sex Work, unless they want to.

You may not realise it, but you are often flippant in your remarks about me. The Belle De Jour one being a classic. Things like that don't help.

The 22 year old did not tell me she was milking it. I saw it for myself. She had already been working a few years and traveled from Manchester to London for bookings and literally got paid £1000's and couldn't stop talking about it. She was also a professional dancer, very intelligent and new what she was doing. She also was very involved in the BDSM scene.

If you are working with people who are at rock bottom, then of course you are going to see that side of life and I'm sorry if your personal experience was not the best, but you got out and you had choices, so there are alternatives and as long as we all work together to help those that don't want to be Sex Workers, then things can get better.

CK73 · 20-02-2013 11:02AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

I sure they would have been thrilled to have a parade of barely clothed, bruised, drooling incoherant, high as pie, thousand-yard-stare women coming through. That would be constructive indeed.

Have we met?

Minoxidil · 20-02-2013 11:09AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Clearly you're not reading my posts.

In fact I'm just going to bow out of this thread now again for a while, 30 pages of back and forth is more than enough for anyone reading it to have drawn their own conclusions by now.

So you argument has been shown to be nonsense so you shall now bow out. Go ahead, I knew your ideas of "alternatives" were a mere fantasy.

SoupMonster · 20-02-2013 11:18AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Why bring china into this? Its nothing new for some to be rich, and others to be poor.

So poor that you got to fcuk two guys just to buy lunch in local greasy spoon? Honestly, it should not happen in any country. An alternative future where we say that sex-work is legitimate work and remove state supports from single girls and mothers on the basis that they can support themselves through 'work'.

Actually one guy volunteered to be fcuked 30 times a day at $5 a time, rather than ...., so I found him a place where he could sell himself even cheaper. Plus the article has an interesting concept of an activist volunteering to experience the life of the prostitutes she it trying to help. I doubt many female pro-prostitution academics would be willing to try the job they are promoting. (Legal way.. pay their $50 entry fee to a German FKK sauna and try to earn back $500)

Czarcasm · 20-02-2013 12:48PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Czarcasm, every argument you've made against sex work is applicable to many other occupations. Why you're singling out sex work is, from what I can tell, nothing more than a personal dislike of the occupation.
You claim it's dangerous, both physically and emotionally, but different from soldiering.

You claim it's dehumanising*, but different from clowning.

You say it's unskilled work with no barriers to entry, but different from bin collecting.

You say it's a service that nobody NEEDS, but different from dancing.

I say it's not different, you just don't like it.

* You've yet to explain how it's dehumanising.

I thought long and hard for the last two days about how I would reply to this to try and convey why I think sex work is dehumanising, and the truth is to be honest I could only introduce emotive personal anecdotes by way of demonstrating why I feel the way I do. I'm not prepared to do that. The biggest difference though, is the perception of a sex worker in society, not my own personal perception, but society's perception. I'll use just one example, though I'm loathe to do so. I know already there are posters chomping at the bit to dismiss me as a fcuking idiot, and it's true, I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box, hence why I've had to back off this thread a couple of times when being bombarded with derision.

Consider if you will, two friends of mine. One friend I applied to join the army with, the other who was a sex worker. I failed the medical for the army because of my gammy hip, decided to contine my education on to third level and pay for it by working as a barman and becoming a sex worker.

Fast forward four years later and I had my degree, my friend in the army was looking forward to a tour in the Lebanon, and my other friend that was working as a sex worker was living quite the luxury lifestyle.

A year later, my friend in the army had only been over in the Lebanon a week as part of a UN peacekeeping force when his convoy was shot at and he was shot dead.

My friend who was a sex worker died from contracting HIV which developed into full blown AIDS a couple of months later.

I attended both funerals. My friend in the army, the church was packed. My friend who was a sex worker- his boyfriend and I were the only two in attendance. Not even his family turned up.

So you see there IS a difference in how society views sex workers, and that's what brought it home to me. You ARE looked at differently, and treated differently, both occupations have their dangers, but one occupation commands more respect from society than the other.

You can be as liberal as you like and say "but legalise and support sex work and it will command the same respect", there's about as much chance of that happening as there is a chance that society will evolve to a point where sex workers are considered unnecessary.

Seachmall · 20-02-2013 01:33PM

My response to that would be leave it up to the individual. I'm sure it comes as no surprise to any working prostitute that their occupation isn't the most widely accepted by society and yet some willingly engage in it regardless. They, like all of us, compare the pros and cons of what they do to make an informed decision.

I think suggesting someone shouldn't do something simply because they may be ostracised by their community (or society as a whole) is a poor approach to a poor situation.

Take atheists in America, studies have repeatedly shown they're the least trusted members of society and in many parts of the country simply declaring you're an atheist and sticking up for your rights as one will result in your family disowning you, your school's administrators neglecting you and the wider community hating you. But I wouldn't think to tell an atheist in these parts to avoid controversy for the sake of it, they should take pride in who they are regardless of what everyone else might think.

Likewise, someone who feels the benefits of sex work overshadow any negative reception they may receive should not curtail their own wants to make society happy.

Also, I appreciate you taking that extra bit of time to think about your response, it's not uncommon for discussions to be dropped simply because the poster doesn't have an immediate response which obviously does nothing to further the discussion. And thanks for the PM, I understand you're coming from a different perspective and it is ultimately the only reason why this discussion is of any interest to anyone.

Czarcasm · 20-02-2013 02:29PM

CK73 wrote: »

May I ask you if you are doing this voluntarily or if it is paid work? If it is voluntary then I'm impressed, as anyone who is in a situation like that needs help, although I don't know why the natural reaction would be to start Sex Work? It certainly wasn't for me, when I found myself on my own with a 4 year old.

This is going to be a short one CK as I'm wore out at this stage tbh. I've already said it's voluntary work I do. I don't do it for thanks or validation or any other number of narcissistic or ego stroking reasons, I do it because I want to see enormous potential in people and I want them to see it for themselves that they are capable of so much more than sacrificing their dignity and self respect to become sex workers. I've said it all along that I want to give people choices. Arees idea of personal freedom of choice and mine are poles apart opposites. Arees says that I am stopping people making the choice to become sex workers. I am not stopping anyone becoming a sex worker if that's what they want to do once they have explored all the options and can make an informed choice. I may not like it, but I've never walked away from anyone for making a decision I didn't agree with. It is completely their lives and I've made some classic fcuk up's in my own life, but I've had some incredible successes too.

I know there are people employed to do similar jobs to what you describe, there are also voluntary bodies. They are all commendable, as I don't think anyone should take on Sex Work, unless they want to.

I was doing what I do long before I ever got involved with the charity, much to my wife's frustration because she is perplexed as to why I do what I do. Even she struggles with the idea of being there to support what I do sometimes because I can't explain it to her, so if she doesn't understand me after 15 years with me, I knew coming into this discussion that I'd be ridiculed. I didn't give a flying fcuk for those who ridiculed me, because my main concern was opening the discussion to as wide an audience as possible, to encourage as many different points of view as possible.

You may not realise it, but you are often flippant in your remarks about me. The Belle De Jour one being a classic. Things like that don't help.

If I was to be flippant or dismissive of your opinion, trust me you'd know the difference. The reference to Belle du Jour was exactly the image of sex work that you were portraying. Mine was just an alternative perspective. You were lucky I let slide your showers, condoms and fresh towels solution tbh as it showed just how far removed you are from an alternate reality to your own.

The 22 year old did not tell me she was milking it. I saw it for myself. She had already been working a few years and traveled from Manchester to London for bookings and literally got paid £1000's and couldn't stop talking about it. She was also a professional dancer, very intelligent and new what she was doing. She also was very involved in the BDSM scene.

She sounds like a bit of a tool tbh. Hate to put it quite so bluntly but the first rule of being a sex worker as you well know yourself is discretion assured and expected, not some mouthy emo kid who thinks a couple of grand is a lot of money. Then again I thought £300 an hour and £1,500 for an overnight job was a lot of money when I was her age too. It's all about perspective really. As for intelligence well I've already admitted I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box despite numerous academic qualifications. I still have fcukall intelligence by way of street smarts or savvy. Again a measure of ones intelligence depends on your perspective.

If you are working with people who are at rock bottom, then of course you are going to see that side of life and I'm sorry if your personal experience was not the best, but you got out and you had choices, so there are alternatives and as long as we all work together to help those that don't want to be Sex Workers, then things can get better.

I work at rock bottom in my voluntary work, but in my business work I have met and worked with billionaires. I treat people at both extremes of the social spectrum equally. I'll never be bitter about my experience because I wouldn't be who and where I am today without it. That's why it can sometimes even be hard for my wife to wrap her head around the idea, because she hasn't experienced what I've experienced. I don't expect she ever will, but the people I help will understand and will hopefully pay it forward.

I'm always willing to work with anyone who is interested in making other people's lives better by helping them to realise their full potential.

Minoxidil · 20-02-2013 02:56PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

This is going to be a short one CK as I'm wore out at this stage tbh. I've already said it's voluntary work I do. I don't do it for thanks or validation or any other number of narcissistic or ego stroking reasons, I do it because I want to see enormous potential in people and I want them to see it for themselves that they are capable of so much more than sacrificing their dignity and self respect to become sex workers. I've said it all along that I want to give people choices. Arees idea of personal freedom of choice and mine are poles apart opposites. Arees says that I am stopping people making the choice to become sex workers. I am not stopping anyone becoming a sex worker if that's what they want to do once they have explored all the options and can make an informed choice. I may not like it, but I've never walked away from anyone for making a decision I didn't agree with. It is completely their lives and I've made some classic fcuk up's in my own life, but I've had some incredible successes too.

I was doing what I do long before I ever got involved with the charity, much to my wife's frustration because she is perplexed as to why I do what I do. Even she struggles with the idea of being there to support what I do sometimes because I can't explain it to her, so if she doesn't understand me after 15 years with me, I knew coming into this discussion that I'd be ridiculed. I didn't give a flying fcuk for those who ridiculed me, because my main concern was opening the discussion to as wide an audience as possible, to encourage as many different points of view as possible.

If I was to be flippant or dismissive of your opinion, trust me you'd know the difference. The reference to Belle du Jour was exactly the image of sex work that you were portraying. Mine was just an alternative perspective. You were lucky I let slide your showers, condoms and fresh towels solution tbh as it showed just how far removed you are from an alternate reality to your own.

She sounds like a bit of a tool tbh. Hate to put it quite so bluntly but the first rule of being a sex worker as you well know yourself is discretion assured and expected, not some mouthy emo kid who thinks a couple of grand is a lot of money. Then again I thought £300 an hour and £1,500 for an overnight job was a lot of money when I was her age too. It's all about perspective really. As for intelligence well I've already admitted I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box despite numerous academic qualifications. I still have fcukall intelligence by way of street smarts or savvy. Again a measure of ones intelligence depends on your perspective.

I work at rock bottom in my voluntary work, but in my business work I have met and worked with billionaires. I treat people at both extremes of the social spectrum equally. I'll never be bitter about my experience because I wouldn't be who and where I am today without it. That's why it can sometimes even be hard for my wife to wrap her head around the idea, because she hasn't experienced what I've experienced. I don't expect she ever will, but the people I help will understand and will hopefully pay it forward.

I'm always willing to work with anyone who is interested in making other people's lives better by helping them to realise their full potential.

My opinion remains that you are against sex work as it is not to your personal taste.

You are desperately looking for reasons why sex work shouldn't be legal to fit with your personal tastes.

aare · 20-02-2013 03:08PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Arees idea of personal freedom of choice and mine are poles apart opposites. Arees says that I am stopping people making the choice to become sex workers. I am not stopping anyone becoming a sex worker if that's what they want to do once they have explored all the options and can make an informed choice.

Do you volunteer with the Immigration council of Ireland? (Which is one of the core members of "Turn Off the Red Light"?)

You say you want zero tolerance for all aspects of sex work...how is that not trying to stop someone from making a free choice to become a sex worker?

The Swedish Model, as promoted by "Turn Off the Red Light" strives to make it impossible to earn any money from sex work, if that is not striving to deny someone a free choice I don't know what is!

aare · 20-02-2013 03:12PM

Minoxidil wrote: »

My opinion remains that you are against sex work as it is not to your personal taste.

You are desperately looking for reasons why sex work shouldn't be legal to fit with your personal tastes.

That is the bottom line, not only for Czarcasm, it is also the unacceptably controlling part of human nature that the whole "Turn Off the Red Light" campaigns strives to play on quite ruthlessly...

None of this has ANYTHING to do with the reality of the people who are at the coalface of this issue, the same reality the Justice Committee has chosen to gag and "Turn Off the Red Light" has deliberately and systematically misrepresented for years.

GalwayGuy2 · 20-02-2013 03:20PM

I attended both funerals. My friend in the army, the church was packed. My friend who was a sex worker- his boyfriend and I were the only two in attendance. Not even his family turned up.

Not to sound condescening, and I could be wrong, but I have to commend you for trying to stay civil. Usually these discussions escalate and people get defensive by getting offensive. So, yeah, kudos:P

Anyway, the problem there is how society views sex workers, or even, to take a leap, AIDs. From reading this thread, there still seems to be a Victorian image of the prostitute as a "fallen woman" or even as a "corruptive woman." And I sometimes wonder if this is a new, quite stereotypical, way of viewing female sexuality, or even a female's own individual decision making. People who want to criminalize the procurement of sex seem to be using emotive examples of women, but not really any of men. Does anybody personally know of any male prostitutes?

But I'm not saying any side of this debate is sexist, as that is used as a bit of a lazy method of invalidating someone's opinion in a lot of debates.

Czarcasm · 20-02-2013 03:27PM

Minoxidil wrote: »

My opinion remains that you are against sex work as it is not to your personal taste.

You are desperately looking for reasons why sex work shouldn't be legal to fit with your personal tastes.

I've already answered this numerous times on this thread if you'd care to read back through it.

I never expected to change anyones opinion here, I just wanted to invite the opinions of as many people as possible and try and keep it as civil and level headed as possible.

There have been times I've wanted to reply to some posts with "would you ever, politely as possible, go fcuk yourself!", because there have been times when posts have enraged and angered me such was the level of complete and utter inhumanity, reducing peoples lives to statistics and surveys on a piece of paper (or in this case in digital format). I absolutely detest statistics when it comes to people because they never have and never will give a true reflection of the actual numbers or the background to those numbers that don't factor in numerous other factors pertaining to the individual.

You can talk metrics with material goods and commodities, but people are not material goods nor commodities and neither is their dignity nor self respect. When you use the services of a sex worker, you are buying not just that persons time, but also their humanity, and with enough money, you can treat them as your personal meat sack, your play thing.

When you take money as a sex worker, you are giving up your rights to your dignity and self respect and putting your humanity in the hands of another person to do with you as they wish.

The above is not applicable in exceptional cases but those exceptional cases are a minority, otherwise sex work wouldn't be the shady underground business it is now and we'd all be at it because of the fantastic money we think we could earn just by giving someone else what they want in return for money to buy some shiny shiny shìt.

I have NOTHING against sex workers, I just have a hell of a lot wrong with exploitation of people. I just think there are a hell of a lot better ways to earn money to buy your shiny shiny shìt than allowing yourself to be somebody elses meat sack.

aare · 20-02-2013 04:05PM

Thanks for you honest and objective response.

But you must have missed a point or skimmed too fast on this one

, and I think it is very important to straighten this bit out:

SoupMonster wrote: »

I am in disagreement with you...
1. Regarding workers criminal records, I believe any seller holding a criminal record for prostitution or soliciting should have it wiped.

I not only believe any sex worker should have the record wiped, but also suggested an obscure, but potentially valid rationale whereby the 93 act may be unconstitutional, and any convictions should probably be overturned!!

I absolutely do not believe in the criminalisation of buyers, BUT anonymity would mitigate some of the very worst indirect affect on totally uninvolved spouses or children who would otherwise be at risk of suffering horribly, and disproportionately, due to the stigma. I cannot, honestly see the slightest justification for that.

Apart from personal preferences...let's put those aside...I do not believe there is the slightest reason to try and end the demand for ANY kind of well regulated work that people are willing to do at any time, let alone in the kind of recession we have now where people's lives are literally running out of track every day...

NOT ONLY is sex work available to the desperate, but ALSO when a woman with other options makes a positive choice to sell sex she is leaving other work available for those who cannot handle selling sex.

Like it or not it remains a fact that there would be significant financial benefits in attracting sex tourism, there is no point lying about it. Any more than they would be any point in lying and pretending that sex tourism would be culturally acceptable in an Irish context, because, right or wrong it would not be.

CK73 · 20-02-2013 04:13PM

I've been out today having lunch with family members. One of them is now married to a man, who's daughter's Mum was pregnant to a man who was in prison. She had an order against him, because he was violent and when he got out of prison she had to move fast and was admitted to a place for women and children in need of help. They then offered her somewhere to live that she refused, funnily enough, because the place was known for street walkers and she didn't want her daughter (she already had one) living in an area like that. Eventually they found her a place in the town near her the the father of her first child, who has regular contact. They have bought all her white goods, furniture and paid to have the place decorated. All for free.

She also has a sister, who has a partner in and out of prison. She lives in council housing and has a child roughly every 7 years to avoid working. She is just about to have her 3rd baby.

Another case. A different family with a teenager who didn't want to toe the line at home. She left to live with various friends and finally bored of sleeping on sofas, she got herself pregnant and has now been housed by the council.

There are places to go if in trouble. Sex Work is not the first alternative, certainly not in the UK, so I would be interested to hear if Ireland is that much different?

The people that are struggling here are the ones that have worked all their lives and live on the bread line.

I also know of ladies where their families do know what they are doing and have accepted it. Be it their immeditate family or all of them. An empty room at a funeral is not the case for all. Not everyone rejects their family out of hand. Look at homosexuals. Forty years ago men had to get married to women, despite wanting to be with a man. They had to toe the line and live a fantasy life, but that isn't like that any more. Although some families can't come to terms with it, many can and do and don't even have to think twice. It's called progress.

Your friend that died serving in the Army. Do you feel that this is an occupation that should be banned with zero tolerants, or is it okay, because he died with people's respect?

One more point. In the grand scheme of things, there are not many Irish Sex Workers in comparison to the other nationalities that come here specifically to work. Many come over for a few months at a time, make their money and then go back home for a while and live off the proceeds and then they return and do the same again.

Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

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