Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

Czarcasm · 19-02-2013 08:46AM

aare wrote: »

In many of the cases you cite their alternative would be hopeless destitution. They obviously prefer to take their only chance of something better...

Who the feck are you to deny them that?

But what if you could create opportunities for them, so they wouldn't have just one "choice" of something better (that's not choice btw!), give them the tools to create more than just one opportunity for themselves. Show them how they can use their brain instead of their body, in careers with far better earning potential and less risk than sex work.

The point is that legalising and legislating sex work doesn't solve it's inherent problems, it only exacerbates them and creates new problems on top of the old ones.

People here are talking about "it's their choice, who are you to interfere?", etc. I am not interfering, I am giving people the tools and information to enable them to make real choices with their lives. The government as I've already said, has a duty towards ALL of it's citizens, not just the few that want to engage in the archaic and primitive profession that is sex work. Anyone in my opinion that calls themselves enlightened because they approve and encourage sex work, is far from as enlightened or intellectual as they think they are.

That's why you get a reply like a twelve year old child such as Nodin's above, akin to "It's my body and I'll do what I want!", completely unwilling to engage their brain to entertain or explore the alternative ACTUAL choices.

Dravokivich · 19-02-2013 09:55AM

aare wrote: »

It also seems to suggest that you are in a minority.

Aye, but isn't this what the entire thread is about? Those who are the topic of concern have a minority representation within the committee. It's all well and good that there have been women who got involved in this discussion here saying they are not having any issues with being forced into it or victimised and doing well for themselves. And he is very appreciative of it, but is also stating it's not normality. He's referenced seeing a lot of the other side of the scale. Both extremes are being displayed here and to shut him down because of it is rather short sighted.

I don't agree with his opinion that prostitution has to be made completely illegal, from prostitute to client involvement. But I do see why he has come to such an opinion. Women like CK73 and Sweet Rachel made their informed decisions about it. Czarcasm is on about those who are unable to, as they are not informed. And to think that such a group doesn't exist is foolish. There's a whole subculture of uninformed, disenfranchised youth in this country who can be easily misled into regrettable circumstances. Those he's looking to help, are those who are these potential victims within society.

I think something more needs to be done to provide a basis of support, as I'm sure many others here will agree. What it is, I honestly couldn't say, but I'd suspect things will be worse for those potential victims if it was to be made entirely illegal. It's never stopped other vices, so I see no reason for it to stop prostitution.

CK73 · 19-02-2013 10:21AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Aye, but isn't this what the entire thread is about? Those who are the topic of concern have a minority representation within the committee. It's all well and good that there have been women who got involved in this discussion here saying they are not having any issues with being forced into it or victimised and doing well for themselves. And he is very appreciative of it, but is also stating it's not normality. He's referenced seeing a lot of the other side of the scale. Both extremes are being displayed here and to shut him down because of it is rather short sighted.

I don't agree with his opinion that prostitution has to be made completely illegal, from prostitute to client involvement. But I do see why he has come to such an opinion. Women like CK73 and Sweet Rachel made their informed decisions about it. Czarcasm is on about those who are unable to, as they are not informed. And to think that such a group doesn't exist is foolish. There's a whole subculture of uninformed, disenfranchised youth in this country who can be easily misled into regrettable circumstances. Those he's looking to help, are those who are these potential victims within society.

I think something more needs to be done to provide a basis of support, as I'm sure many others here will agree. What it is, I honestly couldn't say, but I'd suspect things will be worse for those potential victims if it was to be made entirely illegal. It's never stopped other vices, so I see no reason for it to stop prostitution.

Now we have acknowledged that there is a variety of ladies working within Sex Work and that for some it is not a last resort and has been thought out and a real choice, perhaps it is time to stop clumping us altogether and poor unfortunates with no prospects or education?

Yes there are a tiny proportion trafficked and they need immediate help and then there are those who have at some point in their childhood/youth been abused and see it as a way out. They too need help, support and guidance as to how to better their lives.

Then there are the ladies that use Sex Work like any other job, to provide them with an income that empowers them to reach goals that may otherwise have been out of reach and are perfectly happy with their decision.

To me that does not deserve a blanket zero tolerance to Sex Work. It does require a better understanding of the motivation and a woman's right to do what she wants with her body.

I personally would not want to work in a place where I had no choice as to who I worked with, but I have friends who have no problem with that at all, it is merely a job to them and their preference is the money to selection.

I know of some ladies who work in parlours in the UK and there have been men refused by the ladies. Their boss says he can not force them to see someone they don't like and that is how it should be.

Not all men who visit Sex Workers are old and ugly either, this is a common misconception. Most are average looking men and ages vary from 20's to 70's, with the majority being in the middle age bracket.

I think working conditions generally could be improved for many. There needs to be access to showers, clean towels and condoms for all, but then for the Independent Escort that responsibility falls upon her and I take that responsibility very seriously.

Going back on topic. How do you know who would be represented at these meetings, as currently they are limiting it to one person and no one else is getting their say. It could be a variety, from different backgrounds, but as they are not being invited in, you will never know. We should have a right to talk and to say why we feel criminalizing the client will not help with trafficking and will impact on our work, safety and livilihoods.

It's almost like they are putting their fingers in their ears and singing, 'nanananananana' because they don't want to accept that not all Sex Work is abusive and violent, as those are their buzz words.

Dravokivich · 19-02-2013 11:08AM

I think a lot of people are reading more of what they want to see into what he is saying. He's not going on about the stereotype of prostitution as has been portrayed in the media. He's talking about what he's experienced and the people he himself knows of, just as you have CK73. And for this he feels their views are what needs to be presented, as you feel yours, for the very same reasons. The only part were ye differ, is with the actions that both of ye feel need to be taken.

Czarcasm · 19-02-2013 11:11AM

Thank you Drav for putting it far more articulately than I could've done, and that's exactly what I want, is to see as broad a discussion take place as possible, bringing in as many points of view as possible rather than shouting each other down and petty point scoring.

CK I have in fairness already acknowledged that there are some of my friends who make a damn good living as sex workers, but like yourself these people are well educated and informed and can afford to pick and choose their work.

I'm only asking that you acknowledge there are people who engage in the sex industry having very little understanding of ALL the possible consequences. They make decisions influenced by the glorification and adulation they see in the adult entertainment industry. Many have no idea what goes on behind the scenes because they only see the money shot, they don't see the fourteen or fifteen takes it took to get that shot. They see the fast money, but they don't see the work involved and motivation it takes to get there.

They make decisions without having all the facts to hand, then find themselves wondering where it all went wrong.

You have been gracious enough to give us some insight into your background and your reasons for choosing to become a sex worker, but what if there had been alternatives available to you when you fell into difficulty covering your financial commitments? What if you had known there was a support system in place so that you had alternative choices to sex work? THAT is what I'm trying to get across.

I fully acknowledged already that not everyone is going to agree with my own personal view that sex work is unnecessary in a modern civilised society, but my bigger concern is those that feel they have no choice and can see no alternatives.

It's the classic "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll feed himself for life" scenario. If a person only sees the financial reward in an industry with no barriers to entry, of course it's immediately easier than challenging themselves to come up with alternative solutions.

You have mentioned already the satisfaction you get from your work helping your clients to feel better and giving them confidence, etc. Isn't there a way you could do this but keep your clothes on? The money might not be as good initially, but you're still helping people! In this way your clients aren't buying a fantasy, but you are offering them an alternative, helping them to see that they don't need to buy intimacy.

Nobody NEEDS to buy sex, nobody NEEDS to sell sex. There are always alternatives. They may not be immediately apparent, but challenging oneself to explore those alternatives can be far more rewarding than always defaulting to the easiest choice.

aare · 19-02-2013 11:18AM

The reality is that even in the boom the means did not exist to provide such opportunities. That is and always will be a cloud cuckoo land most people never get to visit let alone live in. Taking away the only real opportunity they have in lieu is just monstrous.

19-02-2013 11:18AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Thank you Drav for putting it far more articulately than I could've done, and that's exactly what I want, is to see as broad a discussion take place as possible, bringing in as many points of view as possible rather than shouting each other down and petty point scoring.

CK I have in fairness already acknowledged that there are some of my friends who make a damn good living as sex workers, but like yourself these people are well educated and informed and can afford to pick and choose their work.

I'm only asking that you acknowledge there are people who engage in the sex industry having very little understanding of ALL the possible consequences.

I'm with you here, but then you go on to say:

Nobody NEEDS to buy sex, nobody NEEDS to sell sex. There are always alternatives. They may not be immediately apparent, but challenging oneself to explore those alternatives can be far more rewarding than always defaulting to the easiest choice.

And I'm not with you there at all

Czarcasm · 19-02-2013 11:42AM

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm with you here, but then you go on to say:

And I'm not with you there at all

Yes but bluewolf rather than say "I agree here / I disagree here", it'd help the discussion and foster a better understanding for everyone involved if you put forward your opinion as to WHY you agree or disagree.

People who simply offer a yes/no, or who are rigid in their opinions and their refusal to acknowledge the opinions of others, are the reason why a discussion will stall and be closed down and no consensus can be reached. If we are not willing at least to explore all the theories and opinions put forward, then we are just as bad as those that want to blindly legalise everything and be done with it, or criminalize everything and be done with it.

I have my own personal opinion on the issue, but I would never let my personal opinion cloud my judgement and close myself off to learning from the opinions and experiences of other people. That is how you gain a better understanding of all the issues involved and can form a more informed opinion on any subject. The more information you have to hand, the more informed decisions you can make to minimize the risk of things going tits up and failing disastrously.

Czarcasm · 19-02-2013 11:50AM

aare wrote: »

The reality is that even in the boom the means did not exist to provide such opportunities. That is and always will be a cloud cuckoo land most people never get to visit let alone live in. Taking away the only real opportunity they have in lieu is just monstrous.

Now that's certainly not true aare. There's a difference between a lack of alternative choices, and people who are too blinkered to explore those alternative choices.

To make a simple analogy- a person is not going to starve if you take away their steak. The vegetarian lifestyle might not be for everybody, but it IS an alternative.

CK73 · 19-02-2013 12:04PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Thank you Drav for putting it far more articulately than I could've done, and that's exactly what I want, is to see as broad a discussion take place as possible, bringing in as many points of view as possible rather than shouting each other down and petty point scoring.

CK I have in fairness already acknowledged that there are some of my friends who make a damn good living as sex workers, but like yourself these people are well educated and informed and can afford to pick and choose their work.

I'm only asking that you acknowledge there are people who engage in the sex industry having very little understanding of ALL the possible consequences. They make decisions influenced by the glorification and adulation they see in the adult entertainment industry. Many have no idea what goes on behind the scenes because they only see the money shot, they don't see the fourteen or fifteen takes it took to get that shot. They see the fast money, but they don't see the work involved and motivation it takes to get there.

They make decisions without having all the facts to hand, then find themselves wondering where it all went wrong.

You have been gracious enough to give us some insight into your background and your reasons for choosing to become a sex worker, but what if there had been alternatives available to you when you fell into difficulty covering your financial commitments? What if you had known there was a support system in place so that you had alternative choices to sex work? THAT is what I'm trying to get across.

I fully acknowledged already that not everyone is going to agree with my own personal view that sex work is unnecessary in a modern civilised society, but my bigger concern is those that feel they have no choice and can see no alternatives.

It's the classic "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll feed himself for life" scenario. If a person only sees the financial reward in an industry with no barriers to entry, of course it's immediately easier than challenging themselves to come up with alternative solutions.

You have mentioned already the satisfaction you get from your work helping your clients to feel better and giving them confidence, etc. Isn't there a way you could do this but keep your clothes on? The money might not be as good initially, but you're still helping people! In this way your clients aren't buying a fantasy, but you are offering them an alternative, helping them to see that they don't need to buy intimacy.

Nobody NEEDS to buy sex, nobody NEEDS to sell sex. There are always alternatives. They may not be immediately apparent, but challenging oneself to explore those alternatives can be far more rewarding than always defaulting to the easiest choice.

What I don't understand is why you would see the friends you have who are successful in the business and myself out of a job that we enjoy? And yes there are alternatives, but currently I'm happy in this job, so why force me or anyone else happy to change?

Why do you think that there is no need to buy sex? What is the alternative for the men who currently do spend time with Sex Workers?

I was not talking about stereo types in my last post, I was bringing together different reasons why women might be involved in Sex work based on the discussion on this thread and that of the Committee. I was acknowledging that perhaps the people I know including Agency, Independent and parlour girls, may not reflect the whole industry, but as yet I have never met anyone who didn't want to be doing what they are doing.

I've met ladies from all over the UK, as high up as Scotland and Ireland. I've spoken to a few EE girls too and they all had aspirations and interests outside of the business. No one was consumed by their work and some were even married with kids. The youngest person I met was 22 and she was milking it for everything she could get and loved it.

It's good that there are people out there that care and do what they can to help those that want/need it, but an acknowledgment that we don't all need 'helping' and are perfectly rounded people, who deserve the right to work in any way we want, as long as it is with consent, is all I ask.

I would like to be able to have a voice and not be ignored, because I don't have any problems.

SoupMonster · 19-02-2013 01:32PM

CK73,
why not petition the committee to hear you in private. I'm sure you could put forward a convincing argument why they should do that for you.

As a matter of interest, considering that prostitution is legal, and you are no doubt well-rewarded in the current industry structure, what changes would you propose, or would you retain the status quo?

Duck Soup · 19-02-2013 02:34PM

Having no sex workers on a review of prostitution legislation reminds me of the Republican-stacked committee on contraception that had no women on it. The argument was that having a vagina and womb does not make you an expert. That's true, but it does give you a different perspective.

And so it goes with sex work. You can study it, crunch the numbers, interview the participants. But you're never going to get the actual perspective of a sex worker unless you have a sex worker guiding debate, shaping the report. I get the distinct impression underlying this reticence to afford a sex worker such a role is an old-fashioned moral indignation from the great and the good that they should have to rub shoulders with a hoor as their equal.

I also agree with those who have said that there is a distinct whiff of an attitude that those who have chosen sex work have effective excluded themselves from the debate. That line of thinking would posit that it makes as much sense as having a junkie have a hand in guiding debate on drug laws. But here's the thing. One of the first waves of heroin addiction in America was amongst doctors, who mostly held down their jobs and continued to participate fully in society. The self-exclusion argument only works if you boil down a wide group of people to a minimalist stereotype - helpless, clueless, worthless. Then you can talk about them and at them, without ever giving their views credence.

As for the whole direction of the debate on prostitution legislation, it seems to be going the way of the debate in other countries. The Swedish model would have particular resonance in Ireland, with a pincer movement on prostitution from patriarchal, religious moralizing on the right and ideologically pure feminism on the left. Both would agree on the lack of value to be placed on sex workers' opinions, if only for different reasons.

The actual data that's come back from the Swedish model is mixed. The headline is that prositution has dropped dramatically. But there are other investigations and reviews of it that suggest that it's simply been displaced (a) in geographical terms to Denmark and (b) in societal and practical terms from streets and onto the internet. In other words, there's as much prostitution as ever, but further underground.

Those who have interviewed sex workers in Sweden have found that the women themselves feel that the new laws make them feel less safe. In order to pick up a punter, a Swedish street sex worker now feels that they have to (a) be quicker about it (the woman may not get nicked, but she'll lose money if her customer is arrested or takes nervous flight) so they have less time to assess the person and situation and (b) they have to go to increasingly out-of-the-way places to avoid the police. At best, you could say it works well for those who get out or want to get out and not at all for those who want to remain.

But I think that's the point of the Swedish model. Make it harder to stay in the business and easier to exit. If you choose to remain, you should be afforded no assistance to do so or special protection.

Seachmall · 19-02-2013 02:50PM

Czarcasm, every argument you've made against sex work is applicable to many other occupations. Why you're singling out sex work is, from what I can tell, nothing more than a personal dislike of the occupation.

You claim it's dangerous, both physically and emotionally, but different from soldiering.
You claim it's dehumanising*, but different from clowning.
You say it's unskilled work with no barriers to entry, but different from bin collecting.
You say it's a service that nobody NEEDS, but different from dancing.

I say it's not different, you just don't like it.

* You've yet to explain how it's dehumanising.

Czarcasm · 19-02-2013 03:23PM

CK73 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why you would see the friends you have who are successful in the business and myself out of a job that we enjoy? And yes there are alternatives, but currently I'm happy in this job, so why force me or anyone else happy to change?

Because the issue is bigger than the handful of friends you or I have who are successful in the industry. I wouldn't like to see anyone out of a job, I wouldn't like to see anyone unhappy. I'd be happy to sit and pull the stones off myself all day and I'm not interfering with anyone else, but have I the potential within me to do better and make a better life for myself and others around me? I certainly do. If we were all to stay within the boundaries of ignorance is bliss, society would never have evolved.

Why do you think that there is no need to buy sex? What is the alternative for the men who currently do spend time with Sex Workers?

The alternative for people (because it's not just men who buy sex) is that they seek to meet people who will not charge for their time. As you said yourself there are many reasons why people avail of sex workers. You can introduce those people to alternatives, as you have done. They come to you seeking anything from merely the physical act of sex, to seeking a chat or emotional intimacy. For that you charge them a premium to provide nothing more than a quick fix solution. Professional therapists work WITH a person to help them to help themselves, getting to the root of a person's issues, and giving them the tools to formulate a more concrete and long term solution. Take your example of the forty year old man who had never been kissed. He decided the quick fix and easiest choice was to visit a sex worker. He was lucky to have met a sex worker who gave a shìte, to put it so bluntly, because many wouldn't. He was looking for a quick fix resolution and upon visiting most sex workers, that's as much as he would've got, and paid a premium for it. They wouldn't have sought to explore his deeper issues nor had him explore the reasons for his lack of intimacy. More would have just suggested he hand over the money and pìss off as they had other customers to get in and time is money.

I was not talking about stereo types in my last post, I was bringing together different reasons why women might be involved in Sex work based on the discussion on this thread and that of the Committee. I was acknowledging that perhaps the people I know including Agency, Independent and parlour girls, may not reflect the whole industry, but as yet I have never met anyone who didn't want to be doing what they are doing.

And just because you've never met them, doesn't mean they don't deserve the same consideration you expect to be given to your opinion. The committee, flawed and all as it is, has neglected to give these people a voice either. The difference though, is that while you are educated well enough to be able to articulate your point of view so eloquently, many of these people aren't, so are in an even lesser position than you or I to be able to speak for themselves and be heard. At least here in this discussion you have an audience who are willing to listen to you, whereas there are many involved in the sex industry who are not even aware of public discussion forums like boards.ie and even less comfortable trying to articulate themselves for fear they will not be able to get their opinions across in a way they think people would understand.

I've met ladies from all over the UK, as high up as Scotland and Ireland. I've spoken to a few EE girls too and they all had aspirations and interests outside of the business. No one was consumed by their work and some were even married with kids. The youngest person I met was 22 and she was milking it for everything she could get and loved it.

Yeah, that bolded bit is just depressing tbh and comes across as incredibly naive. I've met 14 year olds who thought it was "great" that they were able to get money out of "boys" for sex so they could buy an iphone, and they loved it too.

I've already mentioned that my friends are well educated (one guy holds an honours degree in business studies from DCU), but these are exceptional cases. Otherwise we'd see every sex worker enjoying the high life and screw educating yourself, we'd all want in on that gravy train! But the fact is that for many, sex work isn't the easy ride they thought it was supposed to be. For many the career prospects are shìt, but like you yourself have admitted, some people are able to see this and have goals and aspirations beyond the sex industry. For a lot of sex workers though, their earning potential and future prospects are stagnated by the fact that they don't have a Plan B.

It's good that there are people out there that care and do what they can to help those that want/need it, but an acknowledgment that we don't all need 'helping' and are perfectly rounded people, who deserve the right to work in any way we want, as long as it is with consent, is all I ask.

I think many have acknowledged that much already, plus there have been submissions made to the Justice Committee on your behalf. But the issue isn't just about you and your well rounded friends, nor your clients who are criminalized for a cuddle. There are far more players in the game that are sidelined with no voice at all. The government has a duty to examine ALL the issues involved, for all the people involved. They're doing a pìss poor job of it I grant you, but you still many avenues available to you in which you can choose to make your voice heard. People are still listening, and many have even supported you on this thread alone. You have a choice to work within a flawed system to effect change, or you can give up and go back to "well it's working for me so to hell with what anyone else thinks as long as I'm happy!". I choose to work within the flawed system to effect change from the ground up. It's a long, slow moving and arduous process, hampered by numerous set backs and blocks to progression, but part of what I do has to be to forge alternative routes around those blocks, within the confines of a flawed system. I'm not so naive to think there will be an overwhelming wave of social change come about overnight, or even in my lifetime, but I like to think of what I do as paying it forward, that those I help now will at some point in the future be in a position to help those they see potential in, and to give those people the tools they need in order to come up with alternative choices than selling sex to buy an iphone because it makes them happy and they enjoy the sex and all the boys love them and everyone else is just jealous and can go fcuk themselves.

I would like to be able to have a voice and not be ignored, because I don't have any problems.

You have a voice, and are making yourself heard by participating in the discussion here on this thread. Rachel has a voice too and people supported her on this thread, but unfortunately she couldn't understand basic questions that were asked of her in english, questions I have no doubt she could have answered were they phrased in her native Romanian. Her voice now goes unheard because she lacked the tools to participate in this discussion, so I can only hope a translator is provided when she goes before the justice committee representing the interests of immigrant sex workers in Ireland.

I'm alright too by the way and thanks for asking, but where we differ is that just because I'm alright, doesn't mean I can ignore the vast majority that aren't doing so alright. Well I mean I could, and I would certainly have an easier life for it, but I CHOOSE not to. I also choose not to force my personal opinions on others or tell them "I'm right, you're wrong", but what I do, is offer people alternative perspectives, putting them in a better position to use their own mind to make more informed choices.

SoupMonster · 19-02-2013 03:41PM

Seachmall,

Why use euphemisms? There are different types of sex worker, exotic dancer, strip-o-gram, brothel receptionist, pimp, prostitute. Why not use the word prostitution? I know it has negative connotations, but it is the correct word.

Soldiering versus prostitution. It would be interesting is every Romanian or Ukrainian working as a prostitute in Germany was offered a job as an enlisted soldier in the German army at standard German pay. What percentage would take up such an offer?

Clowns. I assume you are male and straight. Imaging for a second that you are working as a prostitute within the gay community (you are desperate and this in the only way to make fast money). Different from clowning, dehumanising?

Unskilled. I dont think anyone's wife divorced them for putting the bins out.

Dancing. Nobody NEEDS dancing, people WANT to dance. Some guys WANT to try every different race, collect as many flags as possible.
Nobody NEEDS sex, they WANT it.

Seachmall · 19-02-2013 03:45PM

SoupMonster wrote: »

Seachmall,

Why use euphemisms? There are different types of sex worker, exotic dancer, strip-o-gram, brothel receptionist, pimp, prostitute. Why not use the word prostitution? I know it has negative connotations, but it is the correct word.

It's the phrase Czarcasm uses most in his posts, and is equally valid to "prostitute".

And I think you missed the point with the rest of your post.

Czarcasm · 19-02-2013 03:46PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Czarcasm, every argument you've made against sex work is applicable to many other occupations. Why you're singling out sex work is, from what I can tell, nothing more than a personal dislike of the occupation.
You claim it's dangerous, both physically and emotionally, but different from soldiering.

You claim it's dehumanising*, but different from clowning.

You say it's unskilled work with no barriers to entry, but different from bin collecting.

You say it's a service that nobody NEEDS, but different from dancing.

I say it's not different, you just don't like it.

* You've yet to explain how it's dehumanising.

Seachmall I'm not ignoring you but can I come back to this later? I'm up to my tits here with work and this thread has been mentally draining and rather time consuming to be perfectly honest about it, so I'm not avoiding or ignoring the questions, just right now I have real life priorities that I have to put before what is essentially hypothetical discussion as I can't see any of us moving from our respective positions on the issue.

Nodin · 19-02-2013 05:35PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Sterling rebuttal there after the poster went to the effort to do some research and get involved in the discussion.

I didn't see his point, so I asked the obvious question. Should you have a problem with this outrageous methodology, I'd suggest using the report button.

Nodin · 19-02-2013 05:44PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

But what if (............)completely unwilling to engage their brain to entertain or explore the alternative ACTUAL choices.

I've explained that above. You can read it a few times if you don't get the gist the first time around.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because the issue is bigger (.............) make more informed choices. .

All of which ignores certain facts. There always has and always will be a 'sex industry'. As a result, the question becomes how to protect those involved in it. So far, you've advocated a total ban, with no real explanation of how that would benefit those who work in it, and in seeming denial of the fact that its never worked.

aare · 19-02-2013 06:12PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Now that's certainly not true aare. There's a difference between a lack of alternative choices, and people who are too blinkered to explore those alternative choices.

To make a simple analogy- a person is not going to starve if you take away their steak. The vegetarian lifestyle might not be for everybody, but it IS an alternative.

...and what are you going to do, when, after "forcibly eradicating sex work" (which will never happen by the way, you will just make it more difficult and dangerous - but, WHATEVER floats your boat) you realise that they actually DID know more about their lives and their options, and what was best for them than you did, and your choices, imposed on them, have left them totally f*cked?

Are you planning to just say "OOOPS!! Sorry..." and move on with your life leaving them in the ruin you have made of theirs?

I want people to be free and protected to sell sex or not as they choose...*you* want to force *your* choice on them...regardless of how irrelevant and inappropriate it is, or even their personal opinions and feelings.

No contest.

Oh and I am still waiting for you to list all these realistic alternatives that are available, with contact details, for anyone who needs them...what's keeping you? SURELY you want those alternatives to be available to as many people as possible as FAST as possible?

aare · 19-02-2013 06:19PM

SoupMonster wrote: »

Seachmall,

Why use euphemisms? There are different types of sex worker, exotic dancer, strip-o-gram, brothel receptionist, pimp, prostitute. Why not use the word prostitution? I know it has negative connotations, but it is the correct word.

Not until somebody informs me that they are a prostitute, and so far, nobody has...if somebody ever does I will be happy to call them a prostitute, but not until.

Czarcasm · 19-02-2013 06:23PM

Nodin wrote: »

I didn't see his point, so I asked the obvious question. Should you have a problem with this outrageous methodology, I'd suggest using the report button.

I didn't see any need in reporting the post. It was an obnoxious rebuttal to a poster who took the time to contribute to the discussion in a meaningful manner and quite frankly was a hell of a lot more than you've contributed to the discussion with your David Norrisesque style of interjective posting looking to get a few thanks, while at the same time humiliating those who have taken the time to put together a comprehensive post that you claimed not to have understood their point.

This will be the only time I'll go off the discussion to entertain your nonsense, I can't see any further point in taking the time to explain anything to you, as I figure it would only give you yet another opportunity for a smart àrse thanks seeking interjection.

The discussion has been civil up to now, even with the interjections of a few fly by posters who sought to nit pick and engage in petty point scoring. At least Seanmac has engaged with the discussion and been gracious enough to give me time to come back with a decent reply to his questions, unlike your jutting in and adding nothing to the discussion.

For this reason I won't be further entertaining your petty point scoring efforts.

CruelCoin · 19-02-2013 06:26PM

Won't somebody please think of the absent fathers?

aare · 19-02-2013 06:27PM

CK73 wrote: »

Going back on topic. How do you know who would be represented at these meetings, as currently they are limiting it to one person and no one else is getting their say. It could be a variety, from different backgrounds, but as they are not being invited in, you will never know.

TO FECKING TRUE FOR WORDS...

When you think about it, the very idea of judging and evaluating all the people who have not been invited to define themselves and their lives would be comical if it were not so brutally dehumanising...

Czarcasm · 19-02-2013 06:29PM

aare wrote: »

...and what are you going to do, when, after "forcibly eradicating sex work" (which will never happen by the way, you will just make it more difficult and dangerous - but, WHATEVER floats your boat) you realise that they actually DID know more about their lives and their options, and what was best for them than you did, and your choices, imposed on them, have left them totally f*cked?

Are you planning to just say "OOOPS!! Sorry..." and move on with your life leaving them in the ruin you have made of theirs?

I want people to be free and protected to sell sex or not as they choose...*you* want to force *your* choice on them...regardless of how irrelevant and inappropriate it is, or even their personal opinions and feelings.

No contest.

Oh and I am still waiting for you to list all these realistic alternatives that are available, with contact details, for anyone who needs them...what's keeping you? SURELY you want those alternatives to be available to as many people as possible as FAST as possible?

Clearly you're not reading my posts.

In fact I'm just going to bow out of this thread now again for a while, 30 pages of back and forth is more than enough for anyone reading it to have drawn their own conclusions by now.

Nodin · 19-02-2013 06:29PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I didn't see (...........) entertaining your petty point scoring efforts.

Bit convenient you've bolted for cover when my last post contained.....

There always has and always will be a 'sex industry'. As a result, the question becomes how to protect those involved in it. So far, you've advocated a total ban, with no real explanation of how that would benefit those who work in it, and in seeming denial of the fact that its never worked.

aare · 19-02-2013 06:34PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Clearly you're not reading my posts.

In fact I'm just going to bow out of this thread now again for a while, 30 pages of back and forth is more than enough for anyone reading it to have drawn their own conclusions by now.

What I seriously *CANNOT* understand is why you cannot confine yourself to honing the quality and controlling the choice *YOU* make about *YOUR* life and giving everybody else the right to do the same?

I will tell you now that I would find it a lot less degrading the sh*g 30 guys a day for €5 a time than to place myself in the hands of someone, like you, who does not even have enough respect for me to see that I am capable of doing my own thinking and does not see me as sufficiently capable and equal to them to be left make my own decisions, instead of setting themselves up to make them for me.

Nodin · 19-02-2013 06:35PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Won't somebody please think of the absent fathers?

Sorry, single mothers are on a day off. Sex workers, Spaniards and Itinerants this week, with a choice of either Muslims or Poles on saturday.

SoupMonster · 19-02-2013 07:54PM

aare,
Maybe you could give this lady a call and she could set you up in a room where guys will sh*g you for 10Yuan (Euro1.20) a time. I cannot find anything cheaper. This is in a socialist/communist country where a guy paid for plastic surgery for his dog. He paid 880,000Yuan for the dog. You would need to sh*g 88,000 guys before you could buy his dog. One of these dogs recently sold for US1million if I remember rightly.

For a brief moment please consider seriously, how do you imagine these women feel knowing that they are so worthless in this socialist workers paradise. Knowing that a dog is more highly valued that all of them put together. That neither the people who have the money and privilege, nor the government give a damn about them. And the police are only interested in extracting fines from them.

By the way, I agree with the lady... the police should be there to protect, not to extort, which means at minimum decriminalising salling of sex.

aare, Nodin,
You do realise that some people have very bad experiences in prostitution. Some working and some no-longer-working women, would not even be able to read this thread without triggering and breaking down. You and I know little of Czarcasm, but I think someone had an a-ha moment, "you worked in this industry...". Please consider that if this is the case, then simply interacting with you may be very difficult. Czarcasm and CK73 were having a very civil discussion, whereas you seem to be simply trolling and challenging every minute point for the sake of it.

Czarcasm is correct that you have contributed nothing. The discussion document contained 4 different approaches. Perhaps you would care to elucidate on the approach you suggest and allow your suggestions to be critiqued.

And for the record, I believe the committee should have taken input from as many current and ex-prostitutes that they could get.

Nodin · 19-02-2013 07:59PM

SoupMonster wrote: »

aare,
Maybe you could give this lady a call and(............)could get.

I'm fully aware many have had terrible experiences. My concern would be to minimise risks for those involved, and I don't think thats best served by banning it.

Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

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