Does the abortion debate reveal what some people really think about women?

Ambersky · 23-01-2013 04:50PM

I thought the etiquette was the man pays the expenses for the fare to England and all that

eviltwin · 23-01-2013 04:59PM

CaraMay wrote: »

My cop on that some do eg 2 friends of mine.

Two people doesn't mean most women are the same. I went with a supportive partner, all other women bar one had a male companion. I mod on a post abortion support board which would have only a handful of women who didn't consult the father and I've been involved in a support group in dublin where all the women had partner's support. So this idea that women are either deceptive and not telling their partners or don't care about there feelings just adds to that image that women who have abortions are selfish, dismissive etc. I imagine for most women partner support is very important.

CaraMay · 23-01-2013 05:01PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Two people doesn't mean most women are the same.

Who said most women? Will you pls keep to the facts.

Morag · 23-01-2013 05:04PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hVSFh__xss

Best bit I have seen on the issue in a while.

eviltwin · 23-01-2013 05:06PM

CaraMay wrote: »

Who said most women? Will you pls keep to the facts.

I'm assuming based on my experiences most abortions are done with consent of both parties. Its regrettable when a couple are at odds but what can you do? You can't force a woman to keep a baby just as you can't force her to have an abortion.

HHobo · 23-01-2013 05:12PM

lazygal wrote: »

There's a inherent distrust of women, particularly pregnant women, that seems to be innate in some circles.

While I can't comment on the veracity of that claim in general, it would be absurd to think that proposers of legislation should not consider the likely abuses when debating it. It just so happens in this particular case that only women are effected but the principle is one of distrust of people and it is a principle that stands on a rock solid foundation. Laws are inherently untrusting, they have to be. If we could trust people, we wouldn't need laws in the first place. Writing legislation is the art of trying to make the legislation as untrusting and specific as possible without infracting any rights unintentionally in the process. It is not easy.

You might well be right about what you are claiming but I think this particular criticism just doesn't really hold water.

CaraMay · 23-01-2013 05:16PM

eviltwin wrote: »

You can't force a woman to keep a baby just as you can't force her to have an abortion.

Who mentioned forcing???

My viewpoint (not judging anyone else) was that I would consider the man in any decision I made and would not chase him through the courts for maintenance etc if he had wanted me to abort.... He is entitled to a choice too IMHO

Whispered · 23-01-2013 05:18PM

eviltwin wrote: »

By who exactly?

In general.

You can't force a woman to keep a baby, rightly so, you can't force her to abort, rightly so. But when a father states he wants nothing to do with a child he's still financially responsible for the child.

As I mentioned earlier, it's off topic, but when abortion is legislated for I would also like to see the men involved have some form of choice too. If a woman does have her choice, then surely the man should too (obviously not a physical abortion against the womans wishes, but a type of legal one)

clairefontaine · 23-01-2013 06:22PM

Whispered wrote: »

In general.

You can't force a woman to keep a baby, rightly so, you can't force her to abort, rightly so. But when a father states he wants nothing to do with a child he's still financially responsible for the child.

As I mentioned earlier, it's off topic, but when abortion is legislated for I would also like to see the men involved have some form of choice too. If a woman does have her choice, then surely the man should too (obviously not a physical abortion against the womans wishes, but a type of legal one)

Out of curiosity, do you believe if they were also offerred a choice it should be a permanent one? In other words, like a woman's there is no going back?

Whispered · 23-01-2013 06:52PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Out of curiosity, do you believe if they were also offerred a choice it should be a permanent one? In other words, like a woman's there is no going back?

I think in all cases, where a man was offered the choice and decided not to have anything to do with a child it should be as permanent as the mother (and in later years the child itself) wants it to be. There should be no way he can change his mind in 5 years and insert himself into the families life.

lazygal · 23-01-2013 07:24PM

Whispered wrote: »

I think in all cases, where a man was offered the choice and decided not to have anything to do with a child it should be as permanent as the mother (and in later years the child itself) wants it to be. There should be no way he can change his mind in 5 years and insert himself into the families life.

Suppose the child wanted his or her father in his or her life? How do you balance the rights of the child if an arrangement has been made that the child doesn't want?

clairefontaine · 23-01-2013 07:38PM

lazygal wrote: »

Suppose the child wanted his or her father in his or her life? How do you balance the rights of the child if an arrangement has been made that the child doesn't want?

I imagine it would be treated like adoption. The child will have to deal with it, like many do already.

Whispered · 23-01-2013 08:00PM

lazygal wrote: »

Suppose the child wanted his or her father in his or her life? How do you balance the rights of the child if an arrangement has been made that the child doesn't want?

This happens anyway. With adoption, mothers who were not in a relationship, fathers who leave their families etc.

HHobo · 23-01-2013 08:37PM

I'm curios about what happens if a mother decides to give up her newborn for adoption. What legal rights does the biological fathe have? Can he take custody of the child?

Also, if he can and does, can he force the mother to pay child support?

username123 · 23-01-2013 08:38PM

Whispered wrote: »

This happens anyway.

To be honest, pretty much everything under discussion happens already. The only thing that doesnt happen is that the surgical procedure of abortion doesnt happen on the island of Ireland.

Im not really sure why we all (me too) allow ourselves to get sidetracked into potential fathers rights, adoptions etc... It all already happens.

The facts are the facts, ~5000 women travel for safe abortion each year. If it was legalised in this country then they wouldnt have to travel. I wouldnt expect there to be a sudden increase in abortion rates, in potential fathers going to court for the rights to their unborn child, in adoption rates changing, in social welfare rates changing etc....

It would really just mean that we stopped exporting an already existing situation. Why is it ok to happen elsewhere but not here? (just musing aloud, not expecting an answer).

Whispered · 23-01-2013 08:45PM

username123 wrote: »

Im not really sure why we all (me too) allow ourselves to get sidetracked into potential fathers rights......

In my case it's because I only know two people who have been involved in a terminated pregnancy. One of them would have been a father, was in a LTR with the woman, didn't know she was pregnant and it all came out when she had a row with a friend who went on to tell her now fiancée that she had terminated a pregnancy. It destroyed him (and needless to say their relationship).

Granted it's all off topic and not really a part of the whole discussion at all (it is after all only one persons experience) but I suppose it has led me to thinking that abortion doesn't just involve and effect the woman if that makes sense.

username123 · 23-01-2013 09:09PM

Whispered wrote: »

Granted it's all off topic and not really a part of the whole discussion at all (it is after all only one persons experience) but I suppose it has led me to thinking that abortion doesn't just involve and effect the woman if that makes sense.

Im dont disagree that it makes for extra thinking, but in the context of the abortion debate as it relates to a change in legislation in this country - would things have gone any differently if the abortion had happened in Ireland and not the UK?

I suppose we cannot be expected to legislate for people being dishonest in their personal relationships. Currently under Irish law a husband is the legal father of any children in the marriage, we havent legislated for the potential outcome of his wife secretly having an affair and pretending a subsequent child is his.

Do any countries where abortion is legal recognise potential fathers rights to the unborn?

Is it an issue at all? Was the deception not the problem in the example you used Whispered, as opposed to abortion? Who knows what the guy would have said had he been faced with the unwanted pregnancy. I honestly cannot think of any men (and there are no groups to reflect this position to my knowledge) who would be campaigning against abortion on the grounds that they should be allowed to force the pregnancy to continue and then raise the child themselves.

Lingua Franca · 23-01-2013 09:30PM

username123 wrote: »

Do any countries where abortion is legal recognise potential fathers rights to the unborn

Yes.

One.

You'll never guess where.

Link

username123 · 23-01-2013 10:10PM

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yes.

One.

You'll never guess where.

Link

Wow! I wasnt expecting that!

clairefontaine · 23-01-2013 10:16PM

username123 wrote: »

To be honest, pretty much everything under discussion happens already. The only thing that doesnt happen is that the surgical procedure of abortion doesnt happen on the island of Ireland.

Im not really sure why we all (me too) allow ourselves to get sidetracked into potential fathers rights, adoptions etc... It all already happens.

The facts are the facts, ~5000 women travel for safe abortion each year. If it was legalised in this country then they wouldnt have to travel. I wouldnt expect there to be a sudden increase in abortion rates, in potential fathers going to court for the rights to their unborn child, in adoption rates changing, in social welfare rates changing etc....

It would really just mean that we stopped exporting an already existing situation. Why is it ok to happen elsewhere but not here? (just musing aloud, not expecting an answer).

I think you would see more abortions. Locality would make it a more viable choice for a lot of people. And cheaper. No travel plans, also you are not under the same pressure for time. People might still travel though so the "neighbours can't see."

Unmarried fathers can never go to court for this because they cant prove paternity at that stage of a pregnancy. It's a non runner and it's in science fiction territory anyhow. The most that could possibly happen in this kind of scenario is that a woman would be required to sign something that said she informed her husband she was having the procedure. That's about the limit on that.

username123 · 23-01-2013 10:22PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think you would see more abortions. Locality would make it a more viable choice for a lot of people. And cheaper. No travel plans, also you are not under the same pressure for time. People might still travel though so the "neighbours can't see."

Unmarried fathers can never go to court for this because they cant prove paternity at that stage of a pregnancy. It's a non runner and it's in science fiction territory anyhow. The most that could possibly happen in this kind of scenario is that a woman would be required to sign something that said she informed her husband she was having the procedure. That's about the limit on that.

Maybe you would see more. Its awful to think that cost is a limiting factor for some people - that must really be a terrible situation to be in. I dont have an issue with it rising anyway, especially if the reason is affordability. Mind you we will never know the true figures on abortion as the UK is not the only country women travel to and even in the UK, many Irish women will give the UK address of a friend or relative - so I think it would look a lot higher anyway simply because a truer number would be visible. And yes, there would still be some who would travel - although perhaps just travel to a different part of Ireland?

Excellent point re early stage paternity testing. Never even thought of it.

clairefontaine · 23-01-2013 10:33PM

username123 wrote: »

Maybe you would see more. Its awful to think that cost is a limiting factor for some people - that must really be a terrible situation to be in. I dont have an issue with it rising anyway, especially if the reason is affordability. Mind you we will never know the true figures on abortion as the UK is not the only country women travel to and even in the UK, many Irish women will give the UK address of a friend or relative - so I think it would look a lot higher anyway simply because a truer number would be visible. And yes, there would still be some who would travel - although perhaps just travel to a different part of Ireland?

Excellent point re early stage paternity testing. Never even thought of it.

It's not just money it's time.

By the time you find out your pregnant, you could be so many weeks along, that doesn't give you much time to make such a big decision, plan a trip, and raise the funds, get time off work or school, and cope with the aftercare, and then jump right back into your life, all under the apparantly more palatable for some "12 week" mark.

iguana · 23-01-2013 10:36PM

HHobo wrote: »

I'm curios about what happens if a mother decides to give up her newborn for adoption. What legal rights does the biological fathe have? Can he take custody of the child?

Also, if he can and does, can he force the mother to pay child support?

The father can legally adopt the child and, unless there is a very good reason not to allow it (like he was the mother's rapist) the adoption should go through easily.

And no he can't look for child support as the mother has terminated her responsibilities along with her rights, the same as she would if anyone else adopted the child.

eviltwin · 23-01-2013 10:39PM

Timing is a big issue. Personally I was trying to book flights round work and family, I rushed into it without thinking it through just so I wouldn't miss a crucial period in work. If I could have had the abortion here there would have been less pressure, I would have had time for proper counselling and been more sure of my decision.

Another downside to the situation here is that no abortion means no real provision for proper aftercare physical or mental.

jaffacakesyum · 23-01-2013 10:42PM

Whispered wrote: »

In general.

You can't force a woman to keep a baby, rightly so, you can't force her to abort, rightly so. But when a father states he wants nothing to do with a child he's still financially responsible for the child.

As I mentioned earlier, it's off topic, but when abortion is legislated for I would also like to see the men involved have some form of choice too. If a woman does have her choice, then surely the man should too (obviously not a physical abortion against the womans wishes, but a type of legal one)

Absolutely.

A father should be allowed a legal abortion and sign a document so that he's completely financially unresponsible for the child. However, he should then not be allowed anything to do with the child later if he changes his mind unless at the discretion of the mother or the child once they reach 18.

In the future (and this is reeeeally looking ahead :pac: ) it would be interesting with women who want an abortion but the father wanting to keep the child, if the embryo could basically be transplanted from the mother to another woman or even some artifical incubator although that sounds completely futuristic and "unnatural"!! However, if it was in the future something that was possible and men's rights group supported it, all the more to them.

But for now, you cannot physically force a woman to be an incubator for something she doesn't want and in many cases wasn't her fault or didn't have a say in to begin with. It's completely backward in my opinion.

Morag · 23-01-2013 10:59PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Another downside to the situation here is that no abortion means no real provision for proper aftercare physical or mental.

There are family planning clinics and well woman clinics and gps who will do post abortion check ups (should be done at 6 weeks) and who will do referrals to counseling which does not involve saying having an abortion is wrong and praying for forgiveness.

Chemical Burn · 23-01-2013 11:00PM

No

eviltwin · 23-01-2013 11:07PM

Morag wrote: »

There are family planning clinics and well woman clinics and gps who will do post abortion check ups (should be done at 6 weeks) and who will do referrals to counseling which does not involve saying having an abortion is wrong and praying for forgiveness.

Yeah but its not long term counselling and tbh I think sometimes you don't need specialists, you just want somewhere to go where you can talk to other women in the same situation and not feel like a freak. At least 150,000 women and its nearly impossible to find any who will talk about it because of the stigma. That's shocking.

Morag · 23-01-2013 11:16PM

Being involved in pro choice activism I have listened to a lot of women over the years and I agree there should be a support group be it in person or at least online but the stigma of it means it's not been done, yet. It would be something I'd consider getting involved with mind.

rainbow kirby · 23-01-2013 11:17PM

Chemical Burn wrote: »

No

Care to expand?

Does the abortion debate reveal what some people really think about women?

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