Does the abortion debate reveal what some people really think about women?

eviltwin

HHobo wrote: »

Yeah. That's exactly it!

On an aside, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?

:P

Morag

I think that the attitude towards women which we see is the remnants from when women where sent to the laundries and kept there as slave labour. Their rights removed and not being allowed to have a say in their own life all cos they got pregnant.

Lingua Franca

Heh, I was just thinking of the Magdalene laundries thread in relation to this one.

For those who haven't read it yet, it's an opening post about how a tribunal report is due in next week, expressing anger that it took so long for even just a report to be released and incredulity that the last laundry only closed in the mid 90s.

The amount of "now who's going to do my washing" gags is nauseating and it's not women posting them.

La_Gordy

Generally in Ireland, misogyny is rampant. The lack of abortion facilities is the most concrete example but look at (the low number of) rape convictions, rape jokes, 'slut' shaming, pay differences, promotion differences etc and it's pretty clear Irish people are misogynistic and Ireland is a misogynistic state. That said, that's horrendously true of nearly everywhere.

lazygal

La_Gordy wrote: »

Generally in Ireland, misogyny is rampant. The lack of abortion facilities is the most concrete example but look at (the low number of) rape convictions, rape jokes, 'slut' shaming, pay differences, promotion differences etc and it's pretty clear Irish people are misogynistic and Ireland is a misogynistic state. That said, that's horrendously true of nearly everywhere.

I'm sick of being told to lighten up or c'mon, its only a JOKE when I call men (and sometimes women) on inappropriate remarks or jokes. I did it in a group setting with my husband's friends once, they were being appallingly sexist and genuinely thought it was funny, it was clear I was seen as an uptight b!tch with no sense of humour. Does anyone remember those Topman tshirts with offensive slogans like 'She was asking for it' and 'What breed is she' on them? Horrible that something like that was seen as acceptable for men to wear and for a highstreet shop to sell.

HHobo

La_Gordy wrote: »

Generally in Ireland, misogyny is rampant. The lack of abortion facilities is the most concrete example but look at (the low number of) rape convictions, rape jokes, 'slut' shaming, pay differences, promotion differences etc and it's pretty clear Irish people are misogynistic and Ireland is a misogynistic state. That said, that's horrendously true of nearly everywhere.

Wow, thats a lot of spectacular assumptions and utter nonsense in a really small space.

Morag

IF that is a person's opinion based on their experience then that's their opinion.

I don't think it's that in people's faces, some times I wish it was, it can be like an annoying background humm that most of the time you can tune out but some times it just does my head in.

eviltwin

Morag wrote: »

IF that is a person's opinion based on their experience then that's their opinion.

I don't think it's that in people's faces, some times I wish it was, it can be like an annoying background humm that most of the time you can tune out but some times it just does my head in.

+1

Its also interesting to hear of some of the crap women have to put up with and just accept and don't even mention because its considered normal and just something you have to put up with if your female.

Roadtrippin

eviltwin wrote: »

+1

Its also interesting to hear of some of the crap women have to put up with and just accept and don't even mention because its considered normal and just something you have to put up with if your female.

I reckon we should start a thread just on that for everyone to see just how many examples there are of everyday sexism women have to cope with in their day to day life... It's sad really in this day and age.

rainbow kirby

Roadtrippin wrote: »

I reckon we should start a thread just on that for everyone to see just how many examples there are of everyday sexism women have to cope with in their day to day life... It's sad really in this day and age.

Feel free to start such a thread

Wibbs

Morag wrote: »

IF that is a person's opinion based on their experience then that's their opinion.

This very much so M.

I don't think it's that in people's faces, some times I wish it was, it can be like an annoying background humm that most of the time you can tune out but some times it just does my head in.

Being honest here, I thought as a callow youth that there was a lot of whinging going down on this score, but over the years I've seen it. Like M says it's like a background noise for women, a tinnitus of "ah here WTF".

I wasn't tuned into it as a bloke. I used to have this discussion with a very good mate of mine and after a while I could begin to see it from her point of view. Now most of the time it's not the "we're being oppressed. How dare you!!!!" stuff it's much more subtle than that. Which for me when I began to see it I felt was much worse. It's that low level sense of dismissal because of gender.

Weirder, often it isn't meant as insult at all, but again I reckon that's worse. It's an allowance or non allowance based on where a persons gonads happen to be located. Trust me I'm no Naomi Wolff we live in a rape culture type, not by a long shot and can't abide those looking for offence as a given, but that shít's there and it's a societal thing. Other women can be often as guilty of it as men.

Roadtrippin

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Feel free to start such a thread

Good idea... just did! Feel free to join in everyone!

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

located. Trust me I'm no Naomi Wolff .

The fact that you have to add this qualifier says it all. It' as if you are pre-empting the abuse you anticipate for saying what you are saying, and Naomi Wolf is feminism soft [not to mention highly intelligent and observant] too.

Wibbs

clairefontaine wrote: »

The fact that you have to add this qualifier says it all. It' as if you are pre-empting the abuse you anticipate for saying what you are saying, and Naomi Wolf is feminism soft [not to mention highly intelligent and observant] too.

Not at all, no particular qualifier required*, I just personally find her an isolated Ivy League thinker/dreamer and don't rate her at all and over the years she's gotten worse IMHO. Indeed her leftie "softness" is what oft irritates me about her. Hippie Feminist lite and sunday supplement friendly and tends to grapple with "taboos" a decade too late. The acceptable attractive face of "radical"(if you're the coffee table suburban type) feminism. Though I might disagree with someone like Dworkin more than I would agree, I'd respect her significantly more as a novel thinker and the list would be a long one ahead of Wolf.

As for preempting abuse? I like abuse coming my way on a debate. I damn near revel in it. It's good for the synapses and often means I may be hitting a nerve, which makes me think bring it on.

*The qualifier aspect? For me and obviously my humble, any movement/philosophy has the extreme view. In some ways this is a good thing as the extreme view may well have truths in it, but the extreme does exist and I happen to not agree with much(not all) of that extreme in Feminism. Plus I'm merely stating I'm not one of those and even I see it, which illustrates the point I'm making.

La_Gordy

Wibbs wrote: »

In some ways this is a good thing as the extreme view may well have truths in it, but the extreme does exist and I happen to not agree with much(not all) of that extreme in Feminism.

Just curious, what do you consider the extreme in feminism?

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

Not at all, no particular qualifier required*, I just personally find her an isolated Ivy League thinker/dreamer and don't rate her at all and over the years she's gotten worse IMHO. Indeed her leftie "softness" is what oft irritates me about her. Hippie Feminist lite and sunday supplement friendly and tends to grapple with "taboos" a decade too late. The acceptable attractive face of "radical"(if you're the coffee table suburban type) feminism. Though I might disagree with someone like Dworkin more than I would agree, I'd respect her significantly more as a novel thinker and the list would be a long one ahead of Wolf.

As for preempting abuse? I like abuse coming my way on a debate. I damn near revel in it. It's good for the synapses and often means I may be hitting a nerve, which makes me think bring it on.

*The qualifier aspect? For me and obviously my humble, any movement/philosophy has the extreme view. In some ways this is a good thing as the extreme view may well have truths in it, but the extreme does exist and I happen to not agree with much(not all) of that extreme in Feminism. Plus I'm merely stating I'm not one of those and even I see it, which illustrates the point I'm making.

She was a relief for a lot of college aged women in the 1990s who were being told left right and centre their boyfriends and fathers were potential rapists and not to wear skirts or practise hetersexuality and never ever wear lipstick. So in that context I can see her appeal, she gave young liberal women cultural permission to love a man and be a feminist, when a lot of her sisterhood had a nunish puritanical streak that frowned on it. Im not sure what you mean by living in a rape culture though. Did Wolf say that? I haven't read her for a very very long time so I have no idea where she has gone on her trajectory.

The extreme is there to make the moderates look good, otherwise they would look extreme.

Wibbs

La_Gordy wrote: »

Just curious, what do you consider the extreme in feminism?

I suppose where they play the victim card so much they begin to make all women look like actual victims? I dunno LG, I'm probably not explaining that well(no probably about it, been up for 20 hours. That's my excuse anyway so feck off ). That aspect rankles with me because I know too many women, actually most, that are anything but oversensitive victims. I just feel that thinking lessens many if not most women's lives and how they live them. Like I say, probably not explaining it well, if at all.

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

I suppose where they play the victim card so much they begin to make all women look like actual victims? I dunno LG, I'm probably not explaining that well(no probably about it, been up for 20 hours. That's my excuse anyway so feck off ). That aspect rankles with me because I know too many women, actually most, that are anything but oversensitive victims. I just feel that thinking lessens many if not most women's lives and how they live them. Like I say, probably not explaining it well, if at all.

Victim politics are both dangerous and important but they are not exclusive to radicals or extremists.

It's important to acknowledge oppression where it is, it stratefies all classes/races/genders in various means, some more insidious than others, and without acknowledgement you can't make any changes. So the conciousness raising has its points, even though many a times, I laugh or sneer at it, or moan to myself oh god here we go again. The problem is when status gets so embedded in victimisation there is not motive to move out of that playing field. The most dangerous thing about victim politics or even individual stuckness in victim status, is the resistance then to change and the likelyhood to that as a victim it's very easy to become a perpetrator. When you think about moments when you were a victim, chances are at that moment the person committing the act felt like a victim.

But I honestly don't know enough about contemporary radical feminism to know how they are operating these days or what ideologies are at work. Saying that, it would't surprise me if the underlying fear is that we will forget and it will happen all over again. It's not like there is a magdalene laundry museum or anything, or a woman's history museum to make sure we don't forget.

Morag

Contemporary radical feminism is currently trying to stop transwomen from being included as feminsts and women while are working side by side with the likes of Ruhama (found by two of the order who ran magdalene laundries) to rescue women from prostitution and pron.

All of which boils down to the same controlling of women and denying us our rights and autonomy.

We don't have a women's musem, I do think it's important that we share our stories
many women in thier 20s have no idea what it was like growing up in the 80s & 90s
when the X Case and Lavinia Kerwick were national news and condoms were not available, and so much was lost from earlier decades.

There is how ever this: Women's History Association of Ireland
http://whai.ie/

Founded in 1989, the aim of the WHAI is to promote research into the women's / gender history in Ireland.
Description
The WHAI seeks to promote research into the history of women in Ireland. The WHAI sponsors an annual conference and circulates regular news bulletins to members about upcoming publications, conferences, seminars and other events.

But it is very academic tbh I have more stock in the likes of this place and women sharing their stories and experiences with each other or how we can on blogs.

Fox_In_Socks

Morag wrote: »

and women while are working side by side with the likes of Ruhama (found by two of the order who ran magdalene laundries) to rescue women from prostitution and pron.

All of which boils down to the same controlling of women and denying us our rights and autonomy.

Well, that depends whether you think some women in prostitution or some types of pornography are exploited/trafficked or not.

Das Kitty

Fox_In_Socks wrote: »

Well, that depends whether you think some women in prostitution or some types of pornography are exploited/trafficked or not.

The qualifier "some" there is important. Radical Feminists don't care whether a woman falls into that category or not.

It was their baiting of transwomen that brought their movement to my attention first. Nasty stuff.

Morag

Fox_In_Socks wrote: »

Well, that depends whether you think some women in prostitution or some types of pornography are exploited/trafficked or not.

We have laws that deal with trafficking and exploitation already.

seeing_ie

Lookit, laydeez cannot be trusted to make decisions about their own bodies.

Bishop knows best.

Not just in Ireland either apparently.

http://jezebel.com/5985720/your-hospital-might-be-catholic-and-that-might-be-a-problem