Does the abortion debate reveal what some people really think about women?

Whispered

username123 wrote: »

Is it an issue at all? Was the deception not the problem in the example you used Whispered, as opposed to abortion? Who knows what the guy would have said had he been faced with the unwanted pregnancy.

As far as he was concerned it wasn't unwanted. He would have been delighted, and indeed I've seen him since go on to be a fantastic father to a child with a woman he barely knew. All totally besides the point. Sorry!

But anyway, the reason I mention it wasn't as an anti abortion post at all. You wondered why sometimes the topic veers into fathers rights and I was just clarifying the reason it would be at the forefront of my own mind. Why I personally would bring it up.

poeticseraphim

philologos wrote: »

My point is that a pro-life position isn't anti-woman and that pro-choicers who claim such are lying.

This discussion is not about pro-life or pro-choice positions. It really is not.

And equating adult men and women to a fetus is not helpful.

The point is the tone and attitude of discussion.

The assumptions and hypocrisies it brings out.

Fathers SHOULD be allowed legal abortions.

But then you have a situation where a child grows up knowing it was aborted. And a child who suffers the consequences of that. That does not happen when a woman has one. But a fetus does.

Maybe men should be allowed I don't know.

Maybe you should need a license to get pregnant and abort the rest. (joking n the last part).

But maybe if you are bringing a citizen into the world you should have to do the paper work in advance!

I would consider letting men legal abortions. I have to think about that.

Fizzlesque

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah but its not long term counselling and tbh I think sometimes you don't need specialists, you just want somewhere to go where you can talk to other women in the same situation and not feel like a freak. At least 150,000 women and its nearly impossible to find any who will talk about it because of the stigma. That's shocking.

This is something I think really needs addressing - and it won't be addressed sufficiently as long as there is guilt and feeling like you'll be judged and all the negative stigma that surrounds abortion.

Because I've always been very open about my daughter, and the fact I chose to have her adopted, I've always been happy to answer the 'do you have children' question with the truth. Over the years I've had lots of conversations with women who had an abortion (at parties, in the pub, random one-off situations, plane journeys; lots of different settings) and for some reason our conversations turned personal and when I've told them about my daughter, they've told me they'd had an abortion, and we've had very open and honest chats about our respective chosen paths. I didn't set out to become an unexpected and occasional confidante to, oftentimes, total strangers, it just turned out that way.

A common theme, I've noticed, is the lack of opportunity to put their experience into words, to talk about it, clear it out from the corners of their mind. Some of the women had only talked to one person, once, and that was it......that would be torture for me. Being able to talk about my daughter has been crucial to my emotional health. Even with it I nearly lost my mind, and my heart is fairly shredded, but without it - I'd possibly have been found dead from a drug overdose, sometime during the past, post-adoption, years.

I know there are obvious differences between pregnancy not ending in motherhood for someone who has had an abortion, and for someone who has had their child adopted, but there are similarities too. To discover you're pregnant is a big thing, no matter which side of the happy-to-be-pregnant fence you're standing on. Something is in your body and that something might or might not grow into a human that wants/needs to be expelled from inside you :eek:

---

> one way or another. Sorry to be so alien about it, but it kind of is - if you spend as long mulling it over, like-so:eek:, as I do. And it's going to change your life - how much it does that, depends on you.

Someone asked why would counseling be needed if it's 'just a bunch of cells' that are being removed. Why do I still need to speak, to almost anyone who will listen, about my daughter, 24 years later? I guess it's because sometimes the right thing to do hurts like hell and 'being right' isn't an antidote to feeling pain.

And sometimes you just want to talk about it because it's good to talk.

All the women I've spoken to have thanked me for the chance to chat about their abortions without feeling judged. I'm glad I was able to give them that, but also feel sad that there's a need out there that's not being met because of (a) stigma/judgement and (b) an erroneous assumption (accusation, perhaps?) that there should be no need for counseling (especially a long time later) if the woman in question was so sure of her decision. Life just ain't that neatly and peachily divided into clear cut lines for us to follow.

We're blessed with the ability to communicate, I say, let's communicate. xx

philologos

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Fathers SHOULD be allowed legal abortions.

But then you have a situation where a child grows up knowing it was aborted. And a child who suffers the consequences of that. That does not happen when a woman has one. But a fetus does.

Maybe men should be allowed I don't know.

Are you actually serious?

I'm sorry, that's absolutely horrific. Are you seriously suggesting that fathers should be able to mandate an abortion?

How the hell is that pro-women's rights?

KamiKazeKitten

philologos wrote: »

Are you actually serious?

I'm sorry, that's absolutely horrific. Are you seriously suggesting that fathers should be able to mandate an abortion?

How the hell is that pro-women's rights?

The poster said legal abortions.
Not forcing a woman to have an abortion, to me it sounds more like the father being able to legally opt out (for want of better words!), and then have a choice whether to raise a child or not.

That's my reading of it anyway - I'm pretty tired right now so maybe I'm way off the mark.

philologos

philologos wrote: »

Are you actually serious?

I'm sorry, that's absolutely horrific. Are you seriously suggesting that fathers should be able to mandate an abortion?

How the hell is that pro-women's rights?

I think PS is referring to a legal abortion insofar as the father could abdicate all parental rights and the mother can't pursue him for child support, if she chooses to have the child instead of abort against his wishes.

Personally I just see this as substituting one injustice for another. Fathers who's partner goes ahead and has a baby they don't want, are presently left with no choice as to the role expected of them, legally and socially. Obviously this is difficult, and an inequality.

Mothers, or pregnant women can choose to abort or adopt, thereby removing themselves legally from the role of mother and its responsibilities. Fathers, or partners of pregnant women do not have this choice.

BUT, I think if we were to offer 'legal' abortions to the would be fathers, we run the risk of turning back the clock when it comes to womens roles as mothers. This could very well see the rise of men who refuse any responsiblity for contraception, since they can walk away consequence free, from its absence or misuse. It also means that the only party to sex who has any consequence to a pregnancy - wanted or unwanted - is the woman.

Its very possible that in time, society could see children as the sole domain of women, with men being seen as more optional than at present. It would also be heaven for a certain type of feckless young male, some of whom rack up several children by different mothers without a second thought at present. I think this quite rare, thankfully.

In this scenario the woman pays in pregnancy and lone parenthood, if she chooses to see the pregnancy to term, or in the (possible) emotional, or physical, or financial consequences of (travelling for) an abortion. Not to mention the stigma.

The woman pays either way, which isn't a more just situation that present, it just changes the person who suffers the injustice.

Of course, the child who's father decides to 'abort' them will know about this and has to learn to live with it, and explain it to their schoolfriends, partners, colleagues and acquaintances throughout their lives, something an aborted foetus doesn't do, and that is likely to be a major issue in many of their lives. So the potential child also pays a price to some degree.

I don't think its fair to make a man a father against his wishes and expect him to pay for a 'mistake'. I'm not sure the alternative is more appealing either. It'd take wiser heads than mine to come up with a truly equitable solution.

clairefontaine

That is nicely thought out Candie. A lot of food for thought.

I would add that it would be practically a minefield too. For example, what's the time limit on the opt out?

There are a lot of cases where women decide to abort because the father had made a decision not to be involved so they don't want to go through with raising a child on their own.

So do those who support this idea of male abortion think he can exempt himself five months into a pregnancy? Thereby the woman who may have made a different choice cant really make that choice. How about ten years down the line after ten years of involvement with the child? At what point is the cut off for that. His abortion wont cost him anything, no trips to a clinic, no potential medical problems, nothing. It will cost him a relationship with his child, but he didnt want that anyway right?

One could argue this is already happening, and despite the odd case you hear of men going to gaol for no child support, often enough women don't pursue maintenance because they can't or the courts fail at enforcement. And either way, the kids are paying for this in multiple ways, aside from financially. What would giving it the legal thumbs up do?

Your absolutely right. Sex becomes consequence free.

As for fair and equal, when it comes to unplanned pregnancy, there is no such thing as fair and equal. It is beyond that, with different sets of consequences for everyone. So we can get up in an ivory tower and howl about fairness, but in the end it doesn't matter, it's the consequences that matter because the consequences are not equal.

clairefontaine

clairefontaine wrote: »

That is nicely thought out Candie. A lot of food for thought.

I would add that it would be practically a minefield too. For example, what's the time limit on the opt out?

There are a lot of cases where women decide to abort because the father had made a decision not to be involved so they don't want to go through with raising a child on their own.

So do you think he can exempt himself five months into a pregnancy? Thereby the woman who may have made a different choice cant really make that choice. How about ten years down the line after ten years of involvement with the child? At what point is the cut off for that. His abortion wont cost him anything, no trips to a clinic, no potential medical problems, nothing. It will cost him a relationship with his child, but he didnt want that anyway right?

Your absolutely right. Sex becomes consequence free.

As for fair and equal, when it comes to unplanned pregnancy, there is no such thing as fair and equal. It is beyond that, with different sets of consequences for everyone. So we can get up in an ivory tower and howl about fairness, but in the end it doesn't matter, it's the consequences that matter because the consequences are not equal.

Personally I don't think it will or can ever happen to give this option to men. And that is unfair, no doubt about it. The alternative is unfair too.

However, I don't think the cost/benefit analysis supports its instigation anyway. Presently in an unwanted pregnancy scenario the man loses out if he is being made a father against his wishes.

If he were given the option of a legal abortion at any point of the childs life, the consequences are more wide ranging. Instead of the man's life being affected, we have the woman, the child (as I outlined in my previous post), and the State losing out.

I don't think the State would ever support the move, since the added financial burden will have to be financed somehow, and the majority of voters in this country, and most others, won't support picking up the tab for what will probably be seen as 'feckless' fathers by a substantial minority, if not a majority.

Pregnancy, childbirth, abortion, and (unplanned, single) motherhood are issues that can never have equal winners, or equal losers. All we can practically do as things stand is hope that all parties behave reasonably and in consultation with one another to limit the worst consequences.

clairefontaine

Candie, this already is the case, it just hasn't been officially recognised or given the official legal thumbs up.

clairefontaine

clairefontaine wrote: »

Candie, this already is the case, it just hasn't been officially recognised or given the official legal thumbs up.

Well, it is and it isn't. There's a big difference in how society sees de facto options, and options enshrined in law, its the difference between a social trend and a legal right. The cultural consequences are different for each.

eviltwin

Fizzlesque wrote: »

This is something I think really needs addressing - and it won't be addressed sufficiently as long as there is guilt and feeling like you'll be judged and all the negative stigma that surrounds abortion.

Because I've always been very open about my daughter, and the fact I chose to have her adopted, I've always been happy to answer the 'do you have children' question with the truth. Over the years I've had lots of conversations with women who had an abortion (at parties, in the pub, random one-off situations, plane journeys; lots of different settings) and for some reason our conversations turned personal and when I've told them about my daughter, they've told me they'd had an abortion, and we've had very open and honest chats about our respective chosen paths. I didn't set out to become an unexpected and occasional confidante to, oftentimes, total strangers, it just turned out that way.

A common theme, I've noticed, is the lack of opportunity to put their experience into words, to talk about it, clear it out from the corners of their mind. Some of the women had only talked to one person, once, and that was it......that would be torture for me. Being able to talk about my daughter has been crucial to my emotional health. Even with it I nearly lost my mind, and my heart is fairly shredded, but without it - I'd possibly have been found dead from a drug overdose, sometime during the past, post-adoption, years.

I know there are obvious differences between pregnancy not ending in motherhood for someone who has had an abortion, and for someone who has had their child adopted, but there are similarities too. To discover you're pregnant is a big thing, no matter which side of the happy-to-be-pregnant fence you're standing on. Something is in your body and that something might or might not grow into a human that wants/needs to be expelled from inside you :eek:

---

> one way or another. Sorry to be so alien about it, but it kind of is - if you spend as long mulling it over, like-so:eek:, as I do. And it's going to change your life - how much it does that, depends on you.

Someone asked why would counseling be needed if it's 'just a bunch of cells' that are being removed. Why do I still need to speak, to almost anyone who will listen, about my daughter, 24 years later? I guess it's because sometimes the right thing to do hurts like hell and 'being right' isn't an antidote to feeling pain.

And sometimes you just want to talk about it because it's good to talk.

All the women I've spoken to have thanked me for the chance to chat about their abortions without feeling judged. I'm glad I was able to give them that, but also feel sad that there's a need out there that's not being met because of (a) stigma/judgement and (b) an erroneous assumption (accusation, perhaps?) that there should be no need for counseling (especially a long time later) if the woman in question was so sure of her decision. Life just ain't that neatly and peachily divided into clear cut lines for us to follow.

We're blessed with the ability to communicate, I say, let's communicate. xx

Thank you for posting that. I think you hit the nail on the head. There is counselling etc out there for those who need it - needs to be more though - and that's great but what if you don't have any issues with it, you don't need help or support, you just want to talk about it with someone who you can trust not to make you feel bad about it.

I've told a few people and the general reaction has been great and I feel good its not a secret anymore. I'm very lucky I was able to have an abortion and move on from it but keeping it a secret doesn't sit right with me. It was a major event in my life, it changed me in so many ways ( all positive ), its a huge part of my story and it just didn't feel right to me to hide that. Why should I?

One really good thing is that I can see more women admitting to having abortions on message boards which is a great move forward.

HHobo

I'll probably be pilloried for this opinion but I think women should care more about contraception and do bare a greater responsibility than men by virtue of the fact that they are the ones who can get pregnant. In much the same way as a man is simply powerless if a woman decides to have an abortion, women are uniquely effected by conception.

For men, it is basically just biological hard cheese that they do not have control over becoming a parent once pregnancy ensues. Even where they to have the right to abdicate parentage, they could do nothing to prevent the child from being born.

In the same fashion it is basically just biological hard cheese for women that men can walk away from a pregnancy they don't want (in the physical sense at least).

Even in the case where a man fathers a child he didn't want and has the legal right to disavow any involvement, I wouldn't be too quick to call this consequence free. Most of us are not quite so flippant about fathering kids here and there. Men do and will continue to care about contraception and both men and women should care from a health point of view too.

Women have the right to abdicate their parentage.
So long as this is true, men should have the right too.

username123

HHobo wrote: »

I'll probably be pilloried for this opinion but I think women should care more about contraception and do bare a greater responsibility than men by virtue of the fact that they are the ones who can get pregnant. In much the same way as a man is simply powerless if a woman decides to have an abortion, women are uniquely effected by conception.

Are you aware that no contraception is 100% successful?

Do you think that the 5000 women who travel for abortion each year do so because they werent using contraception?

clairefontaine

HHobo wrote: »

I'll probably be pilloried for this opinion but I think women should care more about contraception and do bare a greater responsibility than men by virtue of the fact that they are the ones who can get pregnant. In much the same way as a man is simply powerless if a woman decides to have an abortion, women are uniquely effected by conception.

For men, it is basically just biological hard cheese that they do not have control over becoming a parent once pregnancy ensues. Even where they to have the right to abdicate parentage, they could do nothing to prevent the child from being born.

In the same fashion it is basically just biological hard cheese for women that men can walk away from a pregnancy they don't want (in the physical sense at least).

Even in the case where a man fathers a child he didn't want and has the legal right to disavow any involvement, I wouldn't be too quick to call this consequence free. Most of us are not quite so flippant about fathering kids here and there. Men do and will continue to care about contraception and both men and women should care from a health point of view too.

Women have the right to abdicate their parentage.
So long as this is true, men should have the right too.

Are you also aware that there are women who face this choice with a planned pregnancy also because the father to be changed his mind?

eviltwin

HHobo wrote: »

I'll probably be pilloried for this opinion but I think women should care more about contraception and do bare a greater responsibility than men by virtue of the fact that they are the ones who can get pregnant. In much the same way as a man is simply powerless if a woman decides to have an abortion, women are uniquely effected by conception.

For men, it is basically just biological hard cheese that they do not have control over becoming a parent once pregnancy ensues. Even where they to have the right to abdicate parentage, they could do nothing to prevent the child from being born.

In the same fashion it is basically just biological hard cheese for women that men can walk away from a pregnancy they don't want (in the physical sense at least).

Even in the case where a man fathers a child he didn't want and has the legal right to disavow any involvement, I wouldn't be too quick to call this consequence free. Most of us are not quite so flippant about fathering kids here and there. Men do and will continue to care about contraception and both men and women should care from a health point of view too.

Women have the right to abdicate their parentage.
So long as this is true, men should have the right too.

Contraception in my relationship is always a joint responsibility. I was the one using it but my partner has always been involved with the decision, we don't follow the rule that because its my body that can become pregnant that he is dissolved of responsiblity just becasue he wasn't controlling his fertility.

periodictable

As a male, I'm pretty sure that were we able to become pregnant, that, at the end of 9 months we'd be offered a choice of two doors: delivery room or termination room.
To have an abortion or continue with a pregnancy, for whatever reason is a woman's business.

HHobo

eviltwin wrote: »

Contraception in my relationship is always a joint responsibility. I was the one using it but my partner has always been involved with the decision, we don't follow the rule that because its my body that can become pregnant that he is dissolved of responsiblity just becasue he wasn't controlling his fertility.

Would you be equally egalitarian if this contracreption should fail and you did become pregant. You decide you want an abortion and he decides he wants to keep the child.

In the end you will get what you want. Even were he to suggest that you should carry the child to term and he would take full responsibility for it, you would feel entirely entitled to terminate the pregnancy anyway if that were your choice? - after all, it is your body that is pregnant.

Is this a fair characterisation of how you would feel about it? - I mean in terms of choice, not necessarily the particular decisions.

If it is, why do ask that a person with dramatically less power to choose and dramatically less control to take on the same level of responsibility?

jaffacakesyum

HHobo wrote: »

Would you be equally egalitarian if this contracreption should fail and you did become pregant. You decide you want an abortion and he decides he wants to keep the child.

In the end you will get what you want. Even were he to suggest that you should carry the child to term and he would take full responsibility for it, you would feel entirely entitled to terminate the pregnancy anyway if that were your choice? - after all, it is your body that is pregnant.

Is this a fair characterisation of how you would feel about it? - I mean in terms of choice, not necessarily the particular decisions.

If it is, why do ask that a person with dramatically less power to choose and dramatically less control to take on the same level of responsibility?

I don't really understand what you are saying. I think it's a bit scary that you are promoting that men shouldn't take responsibility for contraception What are you suggesting exactly? "Men go have sex with who you want, don't wear a condom, don't ask if she's on the pill, go for it, sure it's not you who will end up pregnant" :eek:

eviltwin

HHobo wrote: »

Would you be equally egalitarian if this contracreption should fail and you did become pregant. You decide you want an abortion and he decides he wants to keep the child.

In the end you will get what you want. Even were he to suggest that you should carry the child to term and he would take full responsibility for it, you would feel entirely entitled to terminate the pregnancy anyway if that were your choice? - after all, it is your body that is pregnant.

Is this a fair characterisation of how you would feel about it? - I mean in terms of choice, not necessarily the particular decisions.

If it is, why do ask that a person with dramatically less power to choose and dramatically less control to take on the same level of responsibility?

The way I look at it is if I'm using contraception he knows I don't want a child. Neither does he.

So in the event that the contraception failed, while I would obviously talk to him about it and possibly go to counselling, ultimately he would know I didn't want kids and it would be unfair for him to change the goalposts.

eviltwin

HHobo wrote: »

If it is, why do ask that a person with dramatically less power to choose and dramatically less control to take on the same level of responsibility?

Because its common sense ??!!! If you don't want to be in a position where a woman can abort a baby you want or have a baby you don't want why wouldn't you do all you can to make sure that doesn't happen?

HHobo

eviltwin wrote: »

The way I look at it is if I'm using contraception he knows I don't want a child. Neither does he.

So in the event that the contraception failed, while I would obviously talk to him about it and possibly go to counselling, ultimately he would know I didn't want kids and it would be unfair for him to change the goalposts.

And if we lived in a world where people were always fair, or for that matter honest, I would agree.

You neglected to actually answer the question. I even specified that it may not be, and I'm happy to accept that it probably wouldn't be, the actual decisions you would make. The question was about whether or not, the pregnant body in question being yours, you would feel entitled to a great portion of choice? You claimed that the body being yours should not burden you with a greater share of the responsibility.

eviltwin

HHobo wrote: »

And if we lived in a world where people were always fair, or for that matter honest, I would agree.

You neglected to actually answer the question. I even specified that it may not be, and I'm happy to accept that it probably wouldn't be, the actual decisions you would make. The question was about whether or not, the pregnant body in question being yours, you would feel entitled to a great portion of choice? You claimed that the body being yours should not burden you with a greater share of the responsibility.

How can I answer that question not being in that position? Who knows what they would do?

I would listen to him, I would do my best to find a way to keep the child but I'm not going to be a martyr either and put myself through something that could be destructive to my mental health just to make another person happy - a person who would have been very aware I didn't want to become pregnant and who had been of the same opinion

Ultimately if I felt for me a pregnancy would cause more harm than good I would have an abortion.

Its unfair but its always going to be unequal when pregnancy only affects one person's body.

Re contraception mostly it is the women who take responsiblity and thats fine, if thats what works in their relationships there is no issue, but its foolish for a man to absolve himself of input into that decision. He needs to be involved.

getz

Morag wrote: »

There are family planning clinics and well woman clinics and gps who will do post abortion check ups (should be done at 6 weeks) and who will do referrals to counseling which does not involve saying having an abortion is wrong and praying for forgiveness.

strange isent it that st bridget was irelands first abortionist,but you will not find that in the church teachings, in 650 bridgets biographer cogitosus,told the story of a young woman who had broken her vows of chasity and fell pregnant,she went to see bridget who took care of of the problem,[bridget exerising her faith blessed her causing the fetus to disappear], into days world bridget would be excommunicated,

username123

HHobo wrote: »

If it is, why do ask that a person with dramatically less power to choose and dramatically less control to take on the same level of responsibility?

Because a crisis pregnancy isnt a power struggle?

People seem to miss the fact that the very definition of crisis pregnancy is that it is a crisis and the two people involved didnt want a pregnancy to occur in the first place.

I have yet to meet a man who hold the view that if contraception failed he would want the woman to go ahead with the pregnancy anyway and then he would take sole responsibility for a child.

Legislating for extreme cases is never a good idea.

CaraMay

It may always only affect one persons body but it doesn't always only affect one persons mental health... There is very little evidence on the affects of abortion on the fathers of the babies and less so when he specifically didn't want the abortion to happen.

Say you don't want to keep the baby as its not a good time for you but he wants you to have the baby and he will take over at birth and says if you abort the baby he will commit suicide - where do you stand then? It's my body so tough seems to be the attitude...

eviltwin

CaraMay wrote: »

It may always only affect one persons body but it doesn't always only affect one persons mental health... There is very little evidence on the affects of abortion on the fathers of the babies and less so when he specifically didn't want the abortion to happen.

Say you don't want to keep the baby as its not a good time for you but he wants you to have the baby and he will take over at birth and says if you abort the baby he will commit suicide - where do you stand then? It's my body so tough seems to be the attitude...

Thats life though, there are so many situations where one person makes a decision that affects their partner in a bad way. People need to be free to make their own decisions, all we can do is try and mediate and have supports in place for the people who need it.

CaraMay

It would be interesting if the stats we to have did detail if the man / father knew about the abortion and / or if he was opposed to it...

eviltwin

CaraMay wrote: »

It would be interesting if the stats we to have did detail if the man / father knew about the abortion and / or if he was opposed to it...

This is an interesting point actually, all the post abortion counselling here is open to both men and women but I've heard that men rarely go. I don't know why that is, are men not as affected by women or do they feel its not for them. I know in my case the father took it worse than I did, four years later its still having an impact on him but then he flat out refuses to get any help or support. But you can't help someone who refuses to help themselves.

CaraMay

Had he opposed the abortion? You don't need to answer if its too private.

I chatted to my oh about this and he says he would have been devastated if I had had an abortion but would have felt he had no control of the situation. It's a heart breaking position for men who want the kid.

eviltwin

CaraMay wrote: »

Had he opposed the abortion? You don't need to answer if its too private.

I chatted to my oh about this and he says he would have been devastated if I had had an abortion but would have felt he had no control of the situation. It's a heart breaking position for men who want the kid.

No not at all, it was a mutual decision and he came with me. He blamed himself for a long time afterwards for the impact it had on me but that wasn't his fault. But he won't get help to address those issues and until he does he's never going to get better.