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HEC: Munster vs Racing Métro 92, Sun 20 Jan 12:45pm [MOD WARNING POST 645]

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    #32
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Munster win without BP
    P_1 wrote: »
    Happens weekly in the Top14.

    Just ask Clareman about the time Scarlets were 1/200 to beat Zebre a few weeks back ;)

    That's true. You often see that in rugby, never in soccer because of the draw.


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    #33
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Racing Métro win
    Nonsense to say Racing are "throwing" the game. You mean they are deliberately going out to lose? Why would they do that?


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    #34
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    Racing Métro win
    thomond2006 wrote: »
    The Munster site says Jones and Sherry's involvement is subject to getting through a training session today.

    I think Sherry is a big loss, personally. Varley is so inconsistent at line-out time.


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    #35
    4PP
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 756 ✭✭✭4PP


    Racing aren't "throwing" anything. No more than Irish provinces do when confronted with the constraints of a league, a euro competition, imposed rest periods for internationals and the like.
    Yes the team has 13 changes since last outing but RCM have no future in this comp. They do however have a match in Bordeaux which is very important in their quest for a Top6 spot in the T14.
    It may adversely affect teams they are not even playing against but that is not their problem.

    Realpolitik my friends, you see it every season in the Rabo.


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    #36
    who_me
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    4PP wrote: »
    Racing aren't "throwing" anything. No more than Irish provinces do when confronted with the constraints of a league, a euro competition, imposed rest periods for internationals and the like.
    Yes the team has 13 changes since last outing but RCM have no future in this comp. They do however have a match in Bordeaux which is very important in their quest for a Top6 spot in the T14.
    It may adversely affect teams they are not even playing against but that is not their problem.

    Realpolitik my friends, you see it every season in the Rabo.

    Exactly. If "not fielding your first choice 15" equated to throwing a game, the Irish provinces would be throwing half their seasons!


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    #37
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,048 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Munster win without BP
    who_me wrote: »
    Exactly. If "not fielding your first choice 15" equated to throwing a game, the Irish provinces would be throwing half their seasons!

    Big difference between a mid-season league game and a cup match where your results directly affect others. I'd be disgusted if an Irish province put out such a weakened side in the last game of the season in the Rabo if their opposition was in the running for a play-off place. It goes against the principals of competition.


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    #38
    4PP
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 756 ✭✭✭4PP


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Big difference between a mid-season league game and a cup match where your results directly affect others.

    The "others" are responsible for their own results.
    If you continually rely on outside elements & not yourself to achieve what you want you'll be continually disappointed.

    "Made your bed.........etc"


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    #39
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Munster win without BP
    4PP wrote: »
    The "others" are responsible for their own results.
    If you continually rely on outside elements & not yourself to achieve what you want you'll be continually disappointed.

    "Made your bed.........etc"

    In no way is it 'continually relying on outside elements', it's presuming a club with a huge squad will at least try to put up a fight in a vital game in the last round of European competition.

    That's fairly far removed from an Irish side putting out a weakened team due to player management protocols in a Rabo game.

    It seems to be a French trait.


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    #40
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    In no way is it 'continually relying on outside elements', it's presuming a club with a huge squad will at least try to put up a fight in a vital game in the last round of European competition.

    That's fairly far removed from an Irish side putting out a weakened team due to player management protocols in a Rabo game.

    It seems to be a French trait.

    But it's not exactly vital to Racing Metro is it?


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    #41
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Racing Métro win
    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    In no way is it 'continually relying on outside elements', it's presuming a club with a huge squad will at least try to put up a fight in a vital game in the last round of European competition.

    That's fairly far removed from an Irish side putting out a weakened team due to player management protocols in a Rabo game.

    It seems to be a French trait.
    Thing is that it isn't a vital game to Racing. They are already out and a win won't get them anywhere.


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    #42
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Munster win without BP
    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Thing is that it isn't a vital game to Racing. They are already out and a win won't get them anywhere.

    And that 1 sentence kills the argument :)


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    #43
    who_me
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Big difference between a mid-season league game and a cup match where your results directly affect others. I'd be disgusted if an Irish province put out such a weakened side in the last game of the season in the Rabo if their opposition was in the running for a play-off place. It goes against the principals of competition.

    Munster v Ulster, a local derby, 1st vs 3rd in the league, in front of a big Christmas crowd? That SHOULD be one of the biggest games of the season. The only reason it isn't is because we're accustomed to the Pro12 (/ML/CL) squads being faffed about.

    Irish clubs have no legs to stand on if they're complaining about players being rested, while we focus on the HEC to the exclusion of all else.

    Racing are (virtually certainly) out of the competition and have nothing to gain. Even if they played a 1st string side, they likely wouldn't be as motivated given they have nothing to play for. IF they don't put up a fight on Sunday (IF!) then it's unfair on teams in other pools, sure. Since when has this tournament been fair?


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    #44
    4PP
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 756 ✭✭✭4PP


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    In no way is it 'continually relying on outside elements', it's presuming a club with a huge squad will at least try to put up a fight in a vital game in the last round of European competition.

    That's fairly far removed from an Irish side putting out a weakened team due to player management protocols in a Rabo game.

    It seems to be a French trait.

    Then don't presume.

    Q: Would it'd be okay if they didn't have "a huge squad"?

    Q: Vital game for whom? Not for Racing by any means

    Q: Player protocols are now an IRFU exclusive? News to me

    Q; French trait? thats pretty "intolerant" considering its standard practice in every league NH or SH!


    That you wish it weren't so is admirable but applying double standards where Irish provinces regularly "throw" as you put it games & then getting upset because French clubs without any hope of advancement prioritize one of the oldest leagues in the world is at best hypocrisy.


    I'll say no more on the matter, we obviously don't agree, but sure there's no harm done.


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    #45
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Munster win without BP
    Racing are teetering on the brink in terms of the Top14 playoffs, had they not won at Toulon they would be in big trouble.

    If you're a Racing supporter, would you want Racing to send a full team in a dead rubber game (from their perspective) as opposed to putting resources into the Top14 where it's all to play for?

    Luckily for the Irish provinces, they have the depth to rotate squads in the Rabo and still win most of the time.

    Leinster / Leinster supporters cannot moan about this, Leinster are in the position they are in because they lost games. It's not Racing's problem.


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    #46
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Munster win without BP
    4PP wrote: »
    Then don't presume.

    Q: Would it'd be okay if they didn't have "a huge squad"?

    Q: Vital game for whom? Not for Racing by any means

    Q: Player protocols are now an IRFU exclusive? News to me

    Q; French trait? thats pretty "intolerant" considering its standard practice in every league NH or SH!


    That you wish it weren't so is admirable but applying double standards where Irish provinces regularly "throw" as you put it games & then getting upset because French clubs without any hope of advancement prioritize one of the oldest leagues in the world is at best hypocrisy.


    I'll say no more on the matter, we obviously don't agree, but sure there's no harm done.

    It's not double standards, you're making it out to be because of some sort of French crusade.

    You're saying it's standard practice for a team to deliberately play a second team away from home in the HEC?

    That's funny, can't remember too many non French teams doing it.
    No matter what way you spin it, a strong club putting out a weak team in a group competition like the Heineken isn't the same as doing it in a league.


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    #47
    Paddywiggum
    Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭Paddywiggum


    Munster win without BP
    Racing play away against Bordeaux on friday night.

    Even with a bonus point win they would be unlikely to qualify for the Amlin given the current state of play in the other pools.

    Hence the fielding of a weakened team.

    I hope Exeter have their strongest team out though :D:D:D


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    #48
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Munster win without BP
    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Racing are teetering on the brink in terms of the Top14 playoffs, had they not won at Toulon they would be in big trouble.

    If you're a Racing supporter, would you want Racing to send a full team in a dead rubber game (from their perspective) as opposed to putting resources into the Top14 where it's all to play for?

    Luckily for the Irish provinces, they have the depth to rotate squads in the Rabo and still win most of the time.

    Leinster / Leinster supporters cannot moan about this, Leinster are in the position they are in because they lost games. It's not Racing's problem.

    Sorry Thomond, but how dare you tar me with that brush. It's not just an issue with this game in particular, it's a wider issue with French clubs.

    It makes a mockery of them being there in the first place, and it's happened constantly down the years, distorting pools along the way.


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    #49
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Agreed, it's tough luck that Leinster got a hard group and Munster get the easier deciding game, but last year Leinster had an easy group and cruised to a home QF, and got the easiest QF at that. That's how the comp works. If the situations were reversed I'd be telling Munster fans to suck it up, and rightly so.


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    #50
    who_me
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    No matter what way you spin it, a strong club putting out a weak team in a group competition like the Heineken isn't the same as doing it in a league.

    You're absolutely right. The French clubs actually value their domestic league, and would probably be less likely to do it there.


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    #51
    PhatPiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Racing are teetering on the brink in terms of the Top14 playoffs, had they not won at Toulon they would be in big trouble.

    If you're a Racing supporter, would you want Racing to send a full team in a dead rubber game (from their perspective) as opposed to putting resources into the Top14 where it's all to play for?

    Luckily for the Irish provinces, they have the depth to rotate squads in the Rabo and still win most of the time.

    Leinster / Leinster supporters cannot moan about this, Leinster are in the position they are in because they lost games. It's not Racing's problem.

    I think its a case of how poor the standards in the Rabo are that the Irish teams can win with second teams rather than any great strength in depth to be honest.


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    #52
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    It's not double standards, you're making it out to be because of some sort of French crusade.

    You're saying it's standard practice for a team to deliberately play a second team away from home in the HEC?

    That's funny, can't remember too many non French teams doing it.
    No matter what way you spin it, a strong club putting out a weak team in a group competition like the Heineken isn't the same as doing it in a league.

    I don't think he is, I think he's saying that its standard practice for any team to prioritise certain matches over other matches (in this case a match in a competition that they're very much in the mix for (the Top14) is being given a higher priority than a match in a competition that they are effectivley out of (the Heineken Cup))


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    #53
    Fishooks13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Fishooks13


    Munster win without BP
    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    Sorry Thomond, but how dare you tar me with that brush. It's not just an issue with this game in particular, it's a wider issue with French clubs.

    It makes a mockery of them being there in the first place, and it's happened constantly down the years, distorting pools along the way.

    English clubs have fielded weakened teams when knocked out in the past

    The reason it doesn't happen as much with Rabo teams is because they don't have to worry about qualifying for the tournament next year


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    #54
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Munster win without BP
    who_me wrote: »
    You're absolutely right. The French clubs actually value their domestic league, and would probably be less likely to do it there.

    Where it generally doesn't impact anyone except them.

    It's the French way to do stuff like this, which is fine, but don't come saying it's the same thing as playing an enforced weakened in the Rabo.


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    #55
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Munster win without BP
    Fishooks13 wrote: »
    English clubs have fielded weakened teams when knocked out in the past

    The reason it doesn't happen as much with Rabo teams is because they don't have to worry about qualifying for the tournament next year

    Can you pinpoint when?


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    #56
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »

    Sorry Thomond, but how dare you tar me with that brush. It's not just an issue with this game in particular, it's a wider issue with French clubs.

    It makes a mockery of them being there in the first place, and it's happened constantly down the years, distorting pools along the way.
    Ridiculous really.

    Racing cant qualify, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them focusing on other competitions. They're lucky they have another competition worth focusing on, and when we do you'll see Celtic teams do the very same.


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    #57
    Fishooks13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Fishooks13


    Munster win without BP
    Teams have priorities, pro rugby is a money game.

    Much more money in Racing resting players this week to have a fresh squad next weekend when they try to get qualification for next years tournament.


    If I was a Racing supporter I'd have no problem with what they're doing.


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    #58
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Munster win without BP
    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    Sorry Thomond, but how dare you tar me with that brush. It's not just an issue with this game in particular, it's a wider issue with French clubs.

    Sorry, that was an unnecessary swipe. Apologies.

    I think the French clubs have gotten a lot better than before.


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    #59
    who_me
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    Where it generally doesn't impact anyone except them.

    It's the French way to do stuff like this, which is fine, but don't come saying it's the same thing as playing an enforced weakened in the Rabo.

    We field weakened sides in the Pro12 because we value the HEC more.
    They field weakened sides in the HEC because they value the Top14 more.

    How can anyone say one is right and the other wrong? At least the French sides have decent 2nd strings; probably more than you could say about us.

    Plus, it bears repeating: Racing are virtually out of the tournament. Demanding they put up a fight in a tournament they're not going anywhere in isn't going to do much good.


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    #60
    Fishooks13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Fishooks13


    Munster win without BP
    who_me wrote: »
    We field weakened sides in the Pro12 because we value the HEC more.
    They field weakened sides in the HEC because they value the Top14 more    .

    How can anyone say one is right and the other wrong? At least the French sides have decent 2nd strings; probably more than you could say about us.

    It's not that black and white. Racing gave it a good crack now that they can't qualify why shouldn't they focus on their domestic competition and securing a HC place for next year?


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    #61
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    Where it generally doesn't impact anyone except them.

    It's the French way to do stuff like this, which is fine, but don't come saying it's the same thing as playing an enforced weakened in the Rabo.

    But it is the same thing, its the owners if the clubs prioritising the use of their players.

    Very broadly speaking:

    The owners of the French and English clubs prioritise keeping their players fit for the competitions that the clubs have the better chance of winning.
    The owners of the Irish, Welsh and Scottish provinces, regions and clubs (the IRFU, WRU and SRU) prioritise having their players fit for international matches.

    P.S. 4PP, Thomand this could be something interesting to talk about on one of your future podcasts.


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