HEC: Munster vs Racing Métro 92, Sun 20 Jan 12:45pm [MOD WARNING POST 645]

irishbucsfan

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Where it generally doesn't impact anyone except them.

It's the French way to do stuff like this, which is fine, but don't come saying it's the same thing as playing an enforced weakened in the Rabo.

When Brian McLaughlin sent Ulster's second team to Galway last season it had nothing to do with player welfare. Ulster could have qualified for the semi finals but decided they'd rather focus on the Heineken Cup. They lost and missed out.

Treviso made 14 changes in the team they sent to Connacht last season just so they could send a fresh team to Biarritz the next week. You say player welfare is only applicable to us so what were they at?!

We do the same as them. Its smart. It is completely enabled by our qualification structure as well. Racing have other things to worry about and this match is far down their list of priorities. What would they gain?

You really just seem to be bitter because it'll make Leinsters job harder.

Foxtrol

Munster win without BP

thomond2006 wrote: »

Racing are teetering on the brink in terms of the Top14 playoffs, had they not won at Toulon they would be in big trouble.

If you're a Racing supporter, would you want Racing to send a full team in a dead rubber game (from their perspective) as opposed to putting resources into the Top14 where it's all to play for?

Luckily for the Irish provinces, they have the depth to rotate squads in the Rabo and still win most of the time.

Leinster / Leinster supporters cannot moan about this, Leinster are in the position they are in because they lost games. It's not Racing's problem.

This has nothing to do with moaning as a Leinster fan as I'd say the exact same thing if the roles were reversed. Sure I would be happy to see my team stroll through but it would be a dirty sort of happiness, knowing that the team didnt really earn it that instead it was handed to them.

Over the course of the Rabo and top 14 teams resting players is common and normally levels itself out over the course of the season but when you have one team trying at one stage of the competition and then throwing in the towel later because they are out of the competition while another team in the same position in a different group is still fielding their strongest side it destroys any aspect of fairness or the most deserving team going through. Some may point out the draw making easy and tough groups but its a random draw, the key word being random, while choosing to field a 2nd string side is a calculated choice so the two cannot be compared.

I agree from a Racing point of view it's probably the right business decision but it shows a complete lack of respect for the competition and the other teams involved in it.

Foxtrol

Munster win without BP

irishbucsfan wrote: »

When Brian McLaughlin sent Ulster's second team to Galway last season it had nothing to do with player welfare. Ulster could have qualified for the semi finals but decided they'd rather focus on the Heineken Cup. They lost and missed out.

Treviso made 14 changes in the team they sent to Connacht last season just so they could send a fresh team to Biarritz the next week. You say player welfare is only applicable to us so what were they at?!

We do the same as them. Its smart. It is completely enabled by our qualification structure as well. Racing have other things to worry about and this match is far down their list of priorities. What would they gain?

You really just seem to be bitter because it'll make Leinsters job harder.

The examples you chose are teams hurting themselves not other teams. It would be different if Connacht put out a weakened side which allowed Ulster to win and get to the semis at the expense of others.

Tmeos

Munster win without BP

Foxtrol wrote: »

This has nothing to do with moaning as a Leinster fan as I'd say the exact same thing if the roles were reversed. Sure I would be happy to see my team stroll through but it would be a dirty sort of happiness, knowing that the team didnt really earn it that instead it was handed to them.

Over the course of the Rabo and top 14 teams resting players is common and normally levels itself out over the course of the season but when you have one team trying at one stage of the competition and then throwing in the towel later because they are out of the competition while another team in the same position in a different group is still fielding their strongest side it destroys any aspect of fairness or the most deserving team going through. Some may point out the draw making easy
and tough groups but its a random draw, the key word being random, while choosing to field a 2nd string side is a calculated choice so the two cannot be compared.

I agree from a Racing point of view it's probably the right business decision but it shows a complete lack of respect for the competition and the other teams involved in it.

I understand you're upset but it really does come across as bitterness, this is the way it is in the HEC and always has been, particularly with French teams who have nothing to play for in the latter stages. Why all of a sudden is it 'lack of respect for the competition' just because it dosent suit Leinster?

Foxtrol

Munster win without BP

Tmeos wrote: »

I understand you're upset but it really does come across as bitterness, this is the way it is in the HEC and always has been, particularly with French teams who have nothing to play for in the latter stages. Why all of a sudden is it 'lack of respect for the competition' just because it dosent suit Leinster?

I'd feel the same way about any side doing it. I've complained about Irish sides (including Leinster) resting players in the Rabo in the past and that wasnt even at the end of the season where another teams futures rely on their results. If that occurred I'd be even more vocal on it.

Fireball07

Racing Métro win

Didn't Sale put out a weakened team last week too? (Although I'd say their first team would have suffered a similar beating) Hardly just French clubs...it's always been done.

Irish teams have always profited from it, because we've tended to be there or thereabouts in the qualifying stages and there is no relegation in pro12, also it's a weaker league so we can actually win with 2nd teams.


But just say...it goes to the play-offs this year. Ulster sent a weakened team to Munster, handing them an easy victory. How about if Munster only qualify into the semi-finals by a single point over someone like Glasgow/Llanelli, who Ulster convincingly beat? Is that not the same thing?

Fireball07

Racing Métro win

I just noticed Munster were the beneficiaries in my example too...... aren't we lucky?

(Poor Leinster got beaten by a stronger Ulster team the week before...)

Tomtom364

Munster win without BP

Foxtrol wrote: »

This has nothing to do with moaning as a Leinster fan as I'd say the exact same thing if the roles were reversed. Sure I would be happy to see my team stroll through but it would be a dirty sort of happiness, knowing that the team didnt really earn it that instead it was handed to them.

Over the course of the Rabo and top 14 teams resting players is common and normally levels itself out over the course of the season but when you have one team trying at one stage of the competition and then throwing in the towel later because they are out of the competition while another team in the same position in a different group is still fielding their strongest side it destroys any aspect of fairness or the most deserving team going through. Some may point out the draw making easy and tough groups but its a random draw, the key word being random, while choosing to field a 2nd string side is a calculated choice so the two cannot be compared.

I agree from a Racing point of view it's probably the right business decision but it shows a complete lack of respect for the competition and the other teams involved in it.

Tbh, I cant agree with you here.
Yes a team choosing to not feild their strongest team is a calculated decision. But having a team that makes that decision in your (from another teams POV) pool is still random, just like having a team like Zebre in your pool.

Saying it is in any way unfair on other teams in other pools when a team in a certain pool decides that their hopes are gone and would rather concentrate elsewhere is just bizzare IMO.

You play the teams you get, if a team isnt interested at the end of the pools then why do the teams in their pool that put them in that situation deserve to go through any less then a team in another pool where the team without a hope wants to play for pride?

The systems are fair in that essence.
You can only play what the, as you said, random draw gives you, be that a commited team with no chance of progressing (Exeter), a weak team (Zebre) or a strong but uncommited team with no hope of progressing (Racing Metro).

Foxtrol

Munster win without BP

Fireball07 wrote: »

But just say...it goes to the play-offs this year. Ulster sent a weakened team to Munster, handing them an easy victory. How about if Munster only qualify into the semi-finals by a single point over someone like Glasgow/Llanelli, who Ulster convincingly beat? Is that not the same thing?

No, as I said there's 22 games rather than 6 so it tends to even itself out as its likely that Glasgow/Llanelli would have played a different weakened side at some point. Its highly unlikely that it evens out in the HC due to less games and the fact some sides dont rest players at any point in the tournament while others do.

Foxtrol

Munster win without BP

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Tbh, I cant agree with you here.
Yes a team choosing to not feild their strongest team is a calculated decision. But having a team that makes that decision in your (from another teams POV) pool is still random, just like having a team like Zebre in your pool.

Saying it is in any way unfair on other teams in other pools when a team in a certain pool decides that their hopes are gone and would rather concentrate elsewhere is just bizzare IMO.

You play the teams you get, if a team isnt interested at the end of the pools then why do the teams in their pool that put them in that situation deserve to go through any less then a team in another pool where the team without a hope wants to play for pride?

The systems are fair in that essence.
You can only play what the, as you said, random draw gives you, be that a commited team with no chance of progressing (Exeter), a weak team (Zebre) or a strong but uncommited team with no hope of progressing (Racing Metro).

Fair point.

Paddywiggum

Munster win without BP

With Biarritz losing to Harlequins tonight, a Racing win would get them Amlin Cup. Motivating factor for the second string?

4PP

Paddywiggum wrote: »

With Biarritz losing to Harlequins tonight, a Racing win would get them Amlin Cup. Motivating factor for the second string?

European Challenge Cup vs Bouclier de Brennus? The feckin' H Cup has a hard time motivating French teams vis a vis le Bouclier never mind the Disney version!


Sorry, never mind the rant, the answer is 'eh.........No Ted!

Paddywiggum

Munster win without BP

that's true! just saying since its a second string, and a lot of those players won't play regularly in Top14, they may think they'll get a run out for the Amlin should they qualify.

Now we all know they won't win (apart from one voter :P), but if they're motivated and keep it tight it could be the difference between Munster getting bonus point or not.

liammur

Munster win without BP

Paddywiggum wrote: »

that's true! just saying since its a second string, and a lot of those players won't play regularly in Top14, they may think they'll get a run out for the Amlin should they qualify.

Now we all know they won't win (apart from one voter :P), but if they're motivated and keep it tight it could be the difference between Munster getting bonus point or not.

We're the ones who needs to keep it tight, bully them up front. We need 1 other match to go our way though.

Paddywiggum

Munster win without BP

liammur wrote: »

We're the ones who needs to keep it tight, bully them up front. We need 1 other match to go our way though.

i meant tight as in scoreboard from Racings point of view, but yes thats def the way we need to play.

Bonus point win and keep within 1 Try of Leinsters tries scored (should they get bonus) tomorrow and we're through.

Playing on Sunday with Leinster and Montpellier playing on Saturday is to our advantage.

liammur

Munster win without BP

Paddywiggum wrote: »

i meant tight as in scoreboard from Racings point of view, but yes thats def the way we need to play.

Bonus point win and keep within 1 Try of Leinsters tries scored (should they get bonus) tomorrow and we're through.

Playing on Sunday with Leinster and Montpellier playing on Saturday is to our advantage.

Well said.
We also have to keep an eye out for Leicester-Toulouse, both those can still go through ahead of us.

Paddywiggum

Munster win without BP

yup a 2 losing bonus for Toulouse and we're goosed. Also Leinster could score just 1 more try than us but beat Exeter by a margin of 19pts more than we beat Racing and they'd go ahead of us on ranking.

But what i said above is just my own view on what i believe is realistically required for us to go through.

There was a lot of talk here tonight on the format of the HC and teams not putting out full strength side, but every year the points scoring system, with all its permutations, creates great excitement for fans. I think its fantastic. Heres hoping its goes in Munsters favour

liammur

Munster win without BP

Paddywiggum wrote: »

yup a 2 losing bonus for Toulouse and we're goosed. Also Leinster could score just 1 more try than us but beat Exeter by a margin of 19pts more than we beat Racing and they'd go ahead of us on ranking.

But what i said above is just my own view on what i believe is realistically required for us to go through.

There was a lot of talk here tonight on the format of the HC and teams not putting out full strength side, but every year the points scoring system, with all its permutations, creates great excitement for fans. I think its fantastic. Heres hoping its goes in Munsters favour

Yep, that talk was rubbish of the highest order. The HC is a great competition. This year was 1 of the poorest though, so many 1 sided games. Let's hope we get 1 more on Sunday

Fishooks13

Munster win without BP

liammur wrote: »

We're the ones who needs to keep it tight, bully them up front. We need 1 other match to go our way though.

Yes, bullying a huge (and unfit) Metro second string up front five will surely be a better way of getting four tries :rolleyes:

That would do nothing but play into their hands.

thomond2006

Munster win without BP

Sherry came through training and he is now starting, with Varley on the bench.

budhabob

Munster win without BP

thomond2006 wrote: »

Sherry came through training and he is now starting, with Varley on the bench.

Good news, Sherry is far more consistent than Varley.
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/11415.php

Lelantos

thomond2006 wrote: »

Sherry came through training and he is now starting, with Varley on the bench.

Saw that & I'm feeling happier already.

Fishooks13

Munster win without BP

Sherry has gone a level above Varley this season, good to see him fit

WorldRugby99

liammur wrote: »

Yep, that talk was rubbish of the highest order. The HC is a great competition. This year was 1 of the poorest though, so many 1 sided games. Let's hope we get 1 more on Sunday

would agree this years group stages have provided way too many one sided games-sale,edinburgh,zebre,cardiff even really the scarlets have been dreadful.Just a one off this year or a sign of a worrying gap between those teams with money and good squads and those without?

RE teams-sorry i dont think its rubbish talk-if there are 2 teams both with chance of qualifying but one of them is up against a team who have rested many players as they already out-surely you can see why some would be hacked off and that it puts a rather major dent in the spirit of the comp? racing metro have made munsters job much easier while exeter are virtually full strength-how can that be fair?

CatFromHue

Biarritz losing last night means a win for Racing tomorrow and they're in the Amlin.

They're not dead and buried anymore!

WorldRugby99

CatFromHue wrote: »

Biarritz losing last night means a win for Racing tomorrow and they're in the Amlin.

They're not dead and buried anymore!

although one suspects judging by their selection,the amlin isnt exactly high in their thoughts-if they were desperate to make amlin,they woulnt have changed 13.

Fishooks13

Munster win without BP

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

although one suspects judging by their selection,the amlin isnt exactly high in their thoughts-if they were desperate to make amlin,they woulnt have changed 13.

It's obvious that the Bordeaux game next week is taking precedence, and rightly so. It's a far more important game for Racing.

That's pro sports for you

jacothelad

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster:

Do you think Conor George has a laminated, easy wipe version of this.

totallegend

Munster win without BP

Fishooks13 wrote: »

It's obvious that the Bordeaux game next week is taking precedence, and rightly so. It's a far more important game for Racing.

That's pro sports for you

The only hope for Leinster fans is that the Racing second string see this as a chance to lay down a marker for selection next week and give it everything.

... So I says, "give me some more straws to clutch at", "There ARE no more"

liammur

Munster win without BP

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

would agree this years group stages have provided way too many one sided games-sale,edinburgh,zebre,cardiff even really the scarlets have been dreadful.Just a one off this year or a sign of a worrying gap between those teams with money and good squads and those without?

RE teams-sorry i dont think its rubbish talk-if there are 2 teams both with chance of qualifying but one of them is up against a team who have rested many players as they already out-surely you can see why some would be hacked off and that it puts a rather major dent in the spirit of the comp? racing metro have made munsters job much easier while exeter are virtually full strength-how can that be fair?

But Leinster shouldn't be relying on anyone, you need to take the group by the scruff of the neck, and both munster and leinster failed miserably to do that.