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Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

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    #1232
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,992 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    They're far more likely to be alive than veterans of both world wars (which you never mention to people who keep harping on about that, for some reason)and it typifies the actions that Britian fought during the close of Empire.

    I don't know what you're getting at here.

    It's wishful thinking on your part that any of them are alive at this stage.

    .. and I still doubt that ony of them ever lived here, they would have been hounded out or worse.


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    #1233
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I don't know what you're getting at here.

    .......

    The funds raised by the poppy go towards ex-service personnell. Yet you've never mentioned the whole 'they're all dead now' line when this kind of thing comes up.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81470005&postcount=82

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81514346&postcount=363

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81523815&postcount=458

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81545000&postcount=520

    A bit of consistency please.


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    #1234
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....well for one thing, I'm not talking about the dead. Secondly, are you telling me you have no trouble with funds going towards the people who did this?


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

    For someone who frequently calls people out for making ill judgements on groups of people like muslims for example, you seem pretty quick to throw your standards out the window when it comes to judging the british soldiers.


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    #1235
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,992 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    The funds raised by the poppy go towards ex-service personnell. Yet you've never mentioned the whole 'they're all dead now' line when this kind of thing comes up.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81470005&postcount=82

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81514346&postcount=363

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81523815&postcount=458

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81545000&postcount=520

    A bit of consistency please.

    Why would my opinion be consistent with those of other people?:confused:

    You're the one banging on about the atrocities committed by British forces in the latter days of the empire. WW1 and WW2 were completely different actions, world wars in fact.

    Why would I need to mention "they're all dead" when referring to those who served in WW1 and WW2, or are you trying to tell me that the British spent the whole time committing atrocities during those conflicts?


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    #1236
    Feathers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    For someone who frequently calls people out for making ill judgements on groups of people like muslims for example, you seem pretty quick to throw your standards out the window when it comes to judging the british soldiers.

    You're talking about judging people as groups: Nodin, nor I nor anyone else on this thread who have said they won't were a poppy haven't judged British soldiers as a group — you're the one who's doing that by saying that 'yes, some British soldiers committed atrocities, but they're not all bad — look to WWI/II' (you plural, i.e. people in support of the poppy).

    But the poppy is to support the veterans and honour the war dead of the British army — all of them — since the first world war. It's also not a symbol to represent opposition to war or about remembering all those that fought regardless of which side they were on (that's the white poppy, not the one sold by RBL).

    Surely someone who disagrees with judging people as a group will disagree to the red poppy — Let those who should be honoured for WWII be honoured & let those that should be disgraced for NI & other colonial ventures be judged on those merits, not on the memory of WWI/II.


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    #1237
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Feathers wrote: »
    You're talking about judging people as groups: Nodin, nor I nor anyone else on this thread who have said they won't were a poppy haven't judged British soldiers as a group — you're the one who's doing that by saying that 'yes, some British soldiers committed atrocities, but they're not all bad — look to WWI/II' (you plural, i.e. people in support of the poppy).

    But the poppy is to support the veterans and honour the war dead of the British army — all of them — since the first world war. It's also not a symbol to represent opposition to war or about remembering all those that fought regardless of which side they were on (that's the white poppy, not the one sold by RBL).

    Surely someone who disagrees with judging people as a group will disagree to the red poppy — Let those who should be honoured for WWII be honoured & let those that should be disgraced for NI & other colonial ventures be judged on those merits, not on the memory of WWI/II.

    What about the majority of good soldiers who served post WWII? The wars they fought in may be unjust but thats something that the politicians of the time should be blamed for. The decent majority who served post WWII have as much right to be commemorated as those who serve post WW2.

    As for the red poppy the RBL supports the veterans and a lot of people in the UK at least will personally know someone whether friend or family so to them supporting that charity and wearing that poppy is relevant to them. Given that a lot of people in Ireland have joined over the years there are many people in Ireland who will wear it for the same reason.


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    #1238
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    For someone who frequently calls people out for making ill judgements on groups of people like muslims for example, you seem pretty quick to throw your standards out the window when it comes to judging the british soldiers.


    ...so those weren't British soldiers, acting under orders?


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    #1239
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Why would my opinion be consistent with those of other people?:confused:

    You're the one banging on about the atrocities committed by British forces in the latter days of the empire. WW1 and WW2 were completely different actions, world wars in fact.

    Why would I need to mention "they're all dead" when referring to those who served in WW1 and WW2, or are you trying to tell me that the British spent the whole time committing atrocities during those conflicts?

    I'm asking that you point out to those saying its ok to buy the poppy because of ww1 and WWII that those people are more than likely dead. Thats what I'm referring to with 'consistency'. They are, logically, far more likely to be dead than those who served in Aden, Iraq or Cyprus.


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    #1240
    Rascasse
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭Rascasse


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...so those weren't British soldiers, acting under orders?

    Firstly, your quote doesn't specify if they were British forces (from Britain) or local forces working for the state.

    Secondly, as you say "working under orders". The people responsible for practically all atrocities that Britain may have committed over the centuries would be those sat in Whitehall or in the field with stars on their shoulders. God forbid you defy an order. Shot at best or glasshouse at worst. And, lets face it, your average Captain or Colonel won't be the ones needing help from the British Legion.


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    #1241
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...so those weren't British soldiers, acting under orders?

    Theres nothing in that article you linked to that proves the soldiers that committed the acts of torture you quoted were doing so under orders. This could have been the acts of sociopathic individuals. Nor does it prove that all British soldiers in Kenya carried out these acts.


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    #1242
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Rascasse wrote: »
    Firstly, your quote doesn't specify if they were British forces (from Britain) or local forces working for the state.

    Secondly, as you say "working under orders". The people responsible for practically all atrocities that Britain may have committed over the centuries would be those sat in Whitehall or in the field with stars on their shoulders. God forbid you defy an order. Shot at best or glasshouse at worst. And, lets face it, your average Captain or Colonel won't be the ones needing help from the British Legion.


    ....maybe they should have tried that line in the trials after WWII.


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    #1243
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Theres nothing in that article you linked to that proves the soldiers that committed the acts of torture you quoted were doing so under orders. This could have been the acts of sociopathic individuals. Nor does it prove that all British soldiers in Kenya carried out these acts.


    Ahh denial. Lovely. Bit odd they were destroying documents then...
    Among the documents that appear to have been destroyed were: records of the abuse of Mau Mau insurgents detained by British colonial authorities, who were tortured and sometimes murdered; reports that may have detailed the alleged massacre of 24 unarmed villagers in Malaya by soldiers of the Scots Guards in 1948; most of the sensitive documents kept by colonial authorities in Aden, where the army's Intelligence Corps operated a secret torture centre for several years in the 1960s; and every sensitive document kept by the authorities in British Guiana, a colony whose policies were heavily influenced by successive US governments and whose post-independence leader was toppled in a coup orchestrated by the CIA.
    The documents that were not destroyed appear to have been kept secret not only to protect the UK's reputation, but to shield the government from litigation. If the small group of Mau Mau detainees are successful in their legal action, thousands more veterans are expected to follow.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes

    In June 1957, Eric Griffiths-Jones, the attorney general of the British administration in Kenya, wrote to the governor, Sir Evelyn Baring, detailing the way the regime of abuse at the colony's detention camps was being subtly altered.
    From now on, Griffiths-Jones wrote, for the abuse to remain legal, Mau Mau suspects must be beaten mainly on their upper body, "vulnerable parts of the body should not be struck, particularly the spleen, liver or kidneys", and it was important that "those who administer violence … should remain collected, balanced and dispassionate".
    Almost as an after-thought, the attorney general reminded the governor of the need for complete secrecy. "If we are going to sin," he wrote, "we must sin quietly."
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/18/sins-colonialists-concealed-secret-archive?intcmp=239

    Still want to talk about "sociopathic individuals"?


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    #1244
    Feathers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    What about the majority of good soldiers who served post WWII? The wars they fought in may be unjust but thats something that the politicians of the time should be blamed for. The decent majority who served post WWII have as much right to be commemorated as those who serve post WW2.

    Well if it's an unjust war, you don't want to remember those who fought on the other side? Seems strange — I think partisan memorials like this lend legitmacy to the actions. Again, it's a symbol to commerate former and serving British military personnel, not all those who died in war.
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    As for the red poppy the RBL supports the veterans and a lot of people in the UK at least will personally know someone whether friend or family so to them supporting that charity and wearing that poppy is relevant to them. Given that a lot of people in Ireland have joined over the years there are many people in Ireland who will wear it for the same reason.

    As I said, I can understand people wearing them if they have relations in the army, but I don't see how people could criticise Irish people who don't want to wear an emblem that premotes a foreign army, many of whose campaigns would be considered unjust regardless of the actions and morals of individual soldiers.


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    #1245
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    If you are not busy tomorrow Nodin you could always go to the 3:15pm Poppy day service in St Patricks Cathedral Dublin, Michael.D will be there too! Maybe you are not the Christian type, even so you might still find it all very interesting? Hopefully all the Union flags & poppies on display wouldn't offend your deeply held Irish Republican sensitivities.


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    #1246
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    If you are not busy tomorrow Nodin you could always go to the 3:15pm Poppy day service in St Patricks Cathedral Dublin, Michael.D will be there too! Maybe you are not the Christian type, even so you might still find it all very interesting? Hopefully all the Union flags & poppies on display wouldn't offend your deeply held Irish Republican sensitivities.


    I'm an atheist....though I've nothing in principle against WWI/II memorials, something thats bedecked with "Union flags & poppies" as you put it, strikes me as being hijacked.


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    #1247
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Nodin wrote: »
    Ahh denial. Lovely. Bit odd they were destroying documents then...


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/18/sins-colonialists-concealed-secret-archive?intcmp=239

    Still want to talk about "sociopathic individuals"?

    Both your articles just show that the governement and politicians of the day were responsible, something im not disagreeing with. How does this show that all serving British soldiers in Kenya were committing war crimes? Or that all post WW2 soldiers are undeserving of commeration?


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    #1248
    Rascasse
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭Rascasse


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....maybe they should have tried that line in the trials after WWII.

    Were any lowly soldiers tried after WWII? I know there weren't at Nuremberg, if that's what you are alluding to.


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    #1249
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Feathers wrote: »
    Well if it's an unjust war, you don't want to remember those who fought on the other side? Seems strange — I think partisan memorials like this lend legitmacy to the actions. Again, it's a symbol to commerate former and serving British military personnel, no all those who died in war.



    As I said, I can understand people wearing them if they have relations in the army, but I don't see how people could criticise Irish people who don't want to wear an emblem that premotes a foreign army, many of whose campaigns would be considered unjust regardless of the actions and morals of individual soldiers.

    There would be no point in commemerating opposing forces. Would you expect us to commerate the Black and Tans? Also do you think its a bit unfair for families and friends to be unable to commemerate a relative killed in a post WW2 conflict because that conflict was considered in hindsight to be unjust?


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    #1250
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    LordSutch wrote: »
    If you are not busy tomorrow Nodin you could always go to the 3:15pm Poppy day service in St Patricks Cathedral Dublin, Michael.D will be there too! Maybe you are not the Christian type, even so you might still find it all very interesting? Hopefully all the Union flags & poppies on display wouldn't offend your deeply held Irish Republican sensitivities.

    What purpose do the Union flags serve exactly? I thought you guys wanted people to believe that remembrance Sunday was about showing respect for those that fought rather than anything political or nationalistic?

    No surprise really that you're more interested in the political side of it. Kinda cheapens the whole idea of 'remembrance' though.


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    #1251
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Both your articles just show that the governement and politicians of the day were responsible, something im not disagreeing with. How does this show that all serving British soldiers in Kenya were committing war crimes? ......

    .....dear o dear. You keep shifting the goal posts. Earlier you were saying
    Theres nothing in that article you linked to that proves the soldiers that committed the acts of torture you quoted were doing so under orders. This could have been the acts of sociopathic individuals.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81680990&postcount=1243

    And again - Kenya is just one example. Theres Aden, Uganda, Egypt, Iraq.....
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Or that all post WW2 soldiers are undeserving of commeration?

    The fact is that theres no way to differentiate between those who are and aren't when buying a poppy. That, combined with the large number of brutal colonial regimes they were involved in, means that anyone supporting the poppy appeal runs a great chance of their funds aiding those involved with those regimes.


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    #1252
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Rascasse wrote: »
    Were any lowly soldiers tried after WWII? I know there weren't at Nuremberg, if that's what you are alluding to.


    ....officers used it as a defence, afaik.


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    #1253
    Feathers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    There would be no point in commemerating opposing forces. Would you expect us to commerate the Black and Tans? Also do you think its a bit unfair for families and friends to be unable to commemerate a relative killed in a post WW2 conflict because that conflict was considered in hindsight to be unjust?

    Well that depends on the purported symbolic meaning of the poppy. We're being told on this thread it's to remember the bloodshed of war & the preciousness of the peace that we've gained. If so, that should be applicable to those who fought on both sides — they are just the rank & file following orders after all?

    If you're agreeing that it is a patriotic symbol to remember national soldiers however, then I'd wonder why an Irish man would be expected to wear one? (Again, apart from those with direct relatives in the army)

    You can't have it everyway. You know that we've had a greater British presence here than purely the Black and Tans? I wouldn't expect us to buy a poppy to honour them, whereas it seems you would :confused:


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    #1254
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    Leinster ladyboys Bod and Kearney not wearing poppy on BBC but proud Munster man woods all decked out with the imperial red.


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    #1255
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    My name is URL wrote: »
    What purpose do the Union flags serve exactly? I thought you guys wanted people to believe that remembrance Sunday was about showing respect for those that fought rather than anything political or nationalistic?

    Now if you had ever been to St Patricks Cathedral you would know that the Union flags I speak of are all about one hundred years old, and they hang up high, threadbare and very very dusty! The poppies are in the Poppy wreaths, and are also worn by the congragation.
    My name is URL wrote: »
    No surprise really that you're more interested in the political side of it. Kinda cheapens the whole idea of 'remembrance' though.

    No need for that, I have made a special effort this year to not get embroiled, and I'm not going to start now.


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    #1256
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Now if you had ever been to St Patricks Cathedral you would know that the Union flags I speak of are all about one hundred years old, and they hang up high, threadbare and very very dusty! The poppies are in the Poppy wreaths, and are also worn by the congragation.



    No need for that, I have made a special effort this year to not get embroiled, and I'm not going to start now.

    Apologies then. That wasn't exactly clear from your post, and I've never been to the Cathedral so wouldn't have known that it's normally adorned with Union flags.


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    #1257
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Apologies then. That wasn't exactly clear from your post, and I've never been to the Cathedral so wouldn't have known that it's normally adorned with Union flags.

    Wasn't clear at all, at all.

    ...theres only one or two, if I recall. Been decades since I was in the place.


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    #1258
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    About Five dusty old ones + a brand new Tricolour.


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    #1259
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Nodin wrote: »
    .....dear o dear. You keep shifting the goal posts. Earlier you were saying

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81680990&postcount=1243

    And again - Kenya is just one example. Theres Aden, Uganda, Egypt, Iraq.....


    The fact is that theres no way to differentiate between those who are and aren't when buying a poppy. That, combined with the large number of brutal colonial regimes they were involved in, means that anyone supporting the poppy appeal runs a great chance of their funds aiding those involved with those regimes.

    Your first article referenced acts of torture and made no reference to them being ordered to carry out that torture so its a logical conclusion to arrive at.

    Your next two article referred to officials covering up the evidence. Neither articles prove that all British soldiers or even the majority deployed there committted atrocities.

    As for the conflicts you mentioned they're irrelevant given the british goverment made the decision to get involved. Not the soldiers. Nor does it change the fact the vast majority of soldiers involved in those conflicts did not commit atrocities while there.

    And lets be honest its a bit unrealistic to trawl through the records of every past serviceman and women to decide if they are worthy of receivig charity from the RBL. It's safe to assume the vast majority are and rightly so. Lets not forget that even with any other charity some recipients might not be deserving of that charity either.


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    #1260
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Feathers wrote: »
    Well that depends on the purported symbolic meaning of the poppy. We're being told on this thread it's to remember the bloodshed of war & the preciousness of the peace that we've gained. If so, that should be applicable to those who fought on both sides — they are just the rank & file following orders after all?

    If you're agreeing that it is a patriotic symbol to remember national soldiers however, then I'd wonder why an Irish man would be expected to wear one? (Again, apart from those with direct relatives in the army)

    You can't have it everyway. You know that we've had a greater British presence here than purely the Black and Tans? I wouldn't expect us to buy a poppy to honour them, whereas it seems you would :confused:

    I dont expect any Irishman to wear the poppy if they dont want to. But in Ireland it seems that those that choose to come under a lot of criticism which isnt fair.

    I never said commemerate the Black and Tans more that if we in Ireland won't commerate them why should the British be expected to commemerate the Mau-Mau?


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    #1261
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Your first article referenced acts of torture and made no reference to them being ordered to carry out that torture so its a logical conclusion to arrive at..

    ....and you didn't bother to research a bit before spouting off? Bit odd.
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Your next two article referred to officials covering up the evidence. Neither articles prove that all British soldiers or even the majority deployed there committted atrocities..

    You seem to be ignorant of the brutality required to subjugate a large number of people. You also seem to ignore (as do a number of others) the fact that the whole colonial enterprise was in fact criminal from the get go.
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    As for the conflicts you mentioned they're irrelevant given the british goverment made the decision to get involved. Not the soldiers. Nor does it change the fact the vast majority of soldiers involved in those conflicts did not commit atrocities while there...

    Thats a good one. I'd like to see the reaction if somebody tried that line regarding the Germans or Russians.
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    And lets be honest its a bit unrealistic to trawl through the records of every past serviceman and women to decide if they are worthy of receivig charity from the RBL. It's safe to assume the vast majority are and rightly so. Lets not forget that even with any other charity some recipients might not be deserving of that charity either.

    What makes you think that? Suez was nothing to be proud of, nor was Aden, Uganda, NI, Iraq....why should they receive anything from an Irish person, regardless of how they behaved?


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