Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

corktina · 07-11-2012 05:39PM

doubtful, why do you mention it?

Do you not think there would be major casualties in a full speed train crash, particularly amongst those standing , but also amongst the unrestrained seated passengers who they land on?

As an ideal, would you not agree that standing has risks attached that are , to my mind, unacceptable in an age where Coach passengers have to be seated and have to wear seat-belts even though they are unlikely to top 62 mph?

Hilly Bill · 07-11-2012 06:10PM

corktina wrote: »

doubtful, why do you mention it?

Do you not think there would be major casualties in a full speed train crash, particularly amongst those standing , but also amongst the unrestrained seated passengers who they land on?

As an ideal, would you not agree that standing has risks attached that are , to my mind, unacceptable in an age where Coach passengers have to be seated and have to wear seat-belts even though they are unlikely to top 62 mph?

Do you really need an answer?

What would you do to get trains to be seated only? would you then employ someone to make sure nobody gets out of their seat until the train is stopped.
Do you think it will be a popular idea when all the seats are taken and people
are left waiting on the next one when all they want to do is go home and dont mind standing if they have to. It would be great if every passenger was able to get a seat but with the numbers that travel its not really possible especially when you get on a few stops down the line on a peak hour service.

corktina · 07-11-2012 06:34PM

with full booking, noone would be left waiting for the next train any more than there are crowds at Dublin Airport waiting for the next plane.
Just because it has always been so is no reason why there shouldn't be a change.

foggy_lad · 07-11-2012 06:34PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If some passengers showed a bit of respect towards those that booked those seats then there wouldn't be a problem. Its the same in theatres, some will sit where they want until someone else comes along with the ticket for that seat. On trains , a few will just refuse to move which is poor form.
Some on here are calling on IR to cut staff but the answer here would be to have someone on the train to ensure that you get the seat . Is that really needed in this day and age? cant people show a bit of respect anymore?
The only money you should get back is the cost of reserving the seat which is €3 each way.

It is very obvious that Irish Rail has no respect for any passengers on their failing intercity services! If I get on a train and there are seats without reservation lights lit up or without a reservation card then I will sit on that seat for the duration of my journey!

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Cant be moved from Cork to Mallow but can be moved at Mallow. Put it like this, if i had a seat reserved from Mallow and you were sat in that seat and refused to move after i showed you that i had it reserved then you would be out of that seat and half way down the carriage in quick time.

You would need to call the train staff/driver and then the Guards who would think twice about moving me as I would be in the right! If I board and find a seat without a reservation I am entitled as per the terms and conditions of carriage to sit on that seat for the duration of my journey! If the seat is reserved from an intermediate station and I am not informed When I take that seat than that should be taken up with Irish Rail by the discommoded passenger as it has nothing to do with me! You would also need medical attention if you had laid as much as a finger on me!!

Refusing to move for such a trivial reason is just pure ignorance and especially if that person was on a freebie.

Those on free travel have the same rights as all other passengers so take off your swastika!

Refusing to fix a systems which has been reported broken for several years is almost criminal considering the money that has been pumped down the Irish Rail sink-hole!

Solair wrote: »

I think passengers also need to be a little bit less accepting about people taking their seats.

Irish Rails reservation system being broken beyond use.

I see this regularly.

"oh you're in my seat".
"Oh am I?"

"it wasn't listed as reserved when I boarded the train, This is my seat now so you should take it up with Irish Rail for failing to properly reserve your seat!"

"Ah sure it's grand I'll find another one!" (ends up standing beside the toilet)

<snip>

If someone's in your seat, turf them out. There's really no excuse on a train system that actually displays your name over the seat and has regular announcements asking people not to occupy pre-booked seats.

The problem is that the seat does not show as reserved when the first passenger sits in it!

It's a cultural thing in both Ireland and to a degree in England that people just won't make a 'scene' when they're being totally walked over by some bully.

Sitting in someone's pre-booked seat is extremely rude, disrespectful, and basically just throwing your weight around because you think you're more important. I don't see it as any different from the bully at school taking your lunch money.

If a seat is not reserved when I board a train I am as entitled as anyone else to sit on it for the duration of my journey! It Does Not Make Me A Bully Or Rude

I've also had "Oh sure we don't really do booking in Ireland do we"
from someone sat in my seat. I just stood there looking very annoyed and he moved.

Irish rail need to enforce their seat booking policy too

Fix their booking system!.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I agree, but it with the attitude of some it could be the STT guys you would need not a train host. There is a guard on the Enterprise, has anyone had any issues regarding someone refusing to move from your pre-booked seat on this service?

The system is broken so don't go all Irish Rail on us and blame innocent passengers for sitting in empty non-reserved seats!

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Personally i wouldnt care including if its an Oap, visually impaired , or a child. They shouldnt be there in the first place. If i have to sit with their family for the rest of the journey then so be it.

Lets lock them all away in a home or mental hospital! Can't wait till its your turn!

LeftBlank wrote: »

On 22000s it's shown as "Reserved from <station>". Not sure about the Mk4 but wouldn't be surprised if something similar was possible.

If you board at the starting station only some seats reserved from that station are shown, none of the seats reserved from intermediate stations show until the train stops at those stations! so if I board in Cork any seats reserved from mallow will not be reserved "from mallow", the same happens on all trains on all lines! Probably a simple Fix but Irish Rail and intelligence don't make good bedfellows.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

And whats the chances of a train falling from the sky at 30 thousand feet? A train doesnt do wheelies when it moves off nor does it land on its back wheels when it arrives at a station.

Buttevent, Malahide Estuary, Cherryville, Ballycumber Etc. When a train derails or plunges down off a viaduct wouldn't you expect many more serious injuries if there were hundreds of passengers standing?

Jamie2k9 · 07-11-2012 06:40PM

If standing on Intercity services was stopped then the very same people here would be saying I would stand if I could get home quicker.

sligotrain · 07-11-2012 06:49PM

Standing on trains is sadly a fact of life. The only way standing can be reduced is to introduce more trains at peak times since unlike buses a train can only run on a stretch of railway that is cleared for that train to run. Since we have a far larger number of single line stretches where trains are necessarily more restricted, we would need to double capacity on single lines by doubling them.

Since the concept of discussing development opportunities on the railways is a banned subject here I will say no more in case the heads of the clique regulars here explode.

foggy_lad · 07-11-2012 07:25PM

sligotrain wrote: »

Standing on trains is sadly a fact of life. The only way standing can be reduced is to introduce more trains at peak times since unlike buses a train can only run on a stretch of railway that is cleared for that train to run. Since we have a far larger number of single line stretches where trains are necessarily more restricted, we would need to double capacity on single lines by doubling them.

Since the concept of discussing development opportunities on the railways is a banned subject here I will say no more in case the heads of the clique regulars here explode.

Development requires money which Irish Rail sadly don't have! They should really consider cutting all intercity services apart from the Belfast train as even the Cork train has been decimated by the cheaper faster Coaches!

end of the road · 07-11-2012 07:45PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Development requires money which Irish Rail sadly don't have!

we had it and we chose motor ways to bally go backwards instead. we could have a fast railway traveling at 21st century speeds yet we got both railway and motor ways that only have stone age speeds

foggy_lad wrote: »

They should really consider cutting all intercity services apart from the Belfast train as even the Cork train has been decimated by the cheaper faster Coaches!

may as well shut the lot then, and as for faster Coaches, yeah right, rickity slow coaches that travel at stone age speeds, if thats what we have to look forward to then most of us should really consider leaving, and their no more decimated by coaches, more like motor car, yet as much as you want to shut the railway, you use it. fail again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

corktina · 07-11-2012 08:00PM

sligotrain wrote: »

Standing on trains is sadly a fact of life. The only way standing can be reduced is to introduce more trains at peak times since unlike buses a train can only run on a stretch of railway that is cleared for that train to run. Since we have a far larger number of single line stretches where trains are necessarily more restricted, we would need to double capacity on single lines by doubling them.

Since the concept of discussing development opportunities on the railways is a banned subject here I will say no more in case the heads of the clique regulars here explode.

it's not the only way.More coaches per train with selective door opening would be another , if longer platforms can't be managed. How about replacing the driving trailers on the Cork and Belfast lines with passenger seating vehicles for another.?

C&T is exactly the forum for rail development discussion surely?

Jamie2k9 · 07-11-2012 08:05PM

it's not the only way.More coaches per train with selective door opening would be another , if longer platforms can't be managed. How about replacing the driving trailers on the Cork and Belfast lines with passenger seating vehicles for another.?

Platform clearance would be an issue for some stations with longer trains as the station loops are not big enough to accomidate 9 car sets.

I can't see standing room being a major problem on Cork line some of the sets are reduced from 5 to 4 standred class carrages and the driving trailers on the Cork line have a generator inside them. The cab on the Belfast sets is very small and is there not already seating behind it?

foggy_lad · 07-11-2012 08:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

we had it and we chose motor ways to bally go backwards instead. we could have a fast railway traveling at 21st century speeds yet we got both railway and motor ways that only have stone age speeds

may as well shut the lot then, and as for faster Coaches, yeah right, rickity slow coaches that travel at stone age speeds, if thats what we have to look forward to then most of us should really consider leaving, and their no more decimated by coaches, more like motor car, yet as much as you want to shut the railway, you use it. fail again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ireland was never and is never going to have anything like the railways found in larger European countries, regardless of how much money is available!! put simply Ireland is a series of small towns and villages which don't have enough passengers to support the level of railway investment people seem to have wet dreams about.

There was money and it was put to excellent use buying excellent trains which are safe comfortable and quiet and don't require several men at different stops en route to change the locomotive around etc. There has also been a lot spent on stopping the rails from falling apart and upgrading large sections as after the recession the country was in right up to the late 80's the railway was possibly the worst in Europe.

Now to get to how it is today, people want to get to their destination with a certain level of comfort and speed and Irish Rail is seen as lazy stale and wholly unreliable(though not the fault of most staff) while most who have travelled on the coach competition have not experienced the same levels of waste or confusion or just pig ignorant bureaucracy as they regularly found within CIE. Also it is far easier to get a bus from where you live to any major town or city while the same is not possible with the train, this has nothing to do with money or governments etc it is just basic economics of scale. you can't have railways serving every small town and village around the country just to carry one or two students and OAP's around a few times a week!

Get a grip and get into the 21st century or you will be lost in the past forever!

corktina · 07-11-2012 08:11PM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Platform clearance would be an issue for some stations with longer trains as the station loops are not big enough to accomidate 9 car sets.

I can't see standing room being a major problem on Cork line some of the sets are reduced from 5 to 4 standard class carrages and the driving trailers on the Cork line have a generator inside them. The cab on the Belfast sets is very small and is there not already seating behind it?

"lets not do it...it's too difficult to lengthen platforms and loops, and , oh , what a pity we didn't get proper vehicles to start with with generators under the floor or locos that can power the coaches"

If rail is to survive the challenges it faces, it has to have a can-do attitude.

The Idyl Race · 07-11-2012 08:12PM

corktina wrote: »

it's not the only way.More coaches per train with selective door opening would be another , if longer platforms can't be managed. How about replacing the driving trailers on the Cork and Belfast lines with passenger seating vehicles for another.?

C&T is exactly the forum for rail development discussion surely?

I haven't seen as much virtual handwashing since I saw Telly Savalas in The Greatest Story Ever Told.

The Idyl Race · 07-11-2012 08:14PM

corktina wrote: »

"lets not do it...it's too difficult to lengthen platforms and loops, and , oh , what a pity we didn't get proper vehicles to start with with generators under the floor or locos that can power the coaches"

If rail is to survive the challenges it faces, it has to have a can-do attitude.

Within permitted reason of course.

Jamie2k9 · 07-11-2012 08:20PM

"lets not do it...it's too difficult to lengthen platforms and loops, and , oh , what a pity we didn't get proper vehicles to start with with generators under the floor or locos that can power the coaches"

If rail is to survive the challenges it faces, it has to have a can-do attitude.

Loco powering the train have worked very well here......

It costs money to extent loops and platforms which we don't have and longer intercity trains are only needed at weekends, there is very few if any services that are at capacity during the week (apart from Rosslare?) so would you wast money for it to happen 2 or 3 days a week much more productive things could be done with it.

corktina · 07-11-2012 08:24PM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Loco powering the train have worked very well here......

It costs money to extent loops and platforms which we don't have and longer intercity trains are only needed at weekends, there is very few if any services that are at capacity during the week (apart from Rosslare?) so would you wast money for it to happen 2 or 3 days a week much more productive things could be done with it.

it's a very good question. Selective door opening then, surely that can't cost a lot?

end of the road · 07-11-2012 08:26PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Ireland was never and is never going to have anything like the railways found in larger European countries, regardless of how much money is available!!

no because the will isn't there, we can have one that is of a decent speed faster then any motor way but, the will wasn't and isn't there.

foggy_lad wrote: »

There was money and it was put to excellent use buying excellent trains which are safe comfortable and quiet and don't require several men at different stops en route to change the locomotive around etc.

and which other perfectly working rolling stock was scrapped for to give them work and now their still isn't work for some of them.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Now to get to how it is today, people want to get to their destination with a certain level of comfort and speed and Irish Rail is seen as lazy stale and wholly unreliable(though not the fault of most staff) while most who have travelled on the coach competition have not experienced the same levels of waste or confusion or just pig ignorant bureaucracy as they regularly found within CIE.

yeah, but they got something that travels at stone age speeds when they could just get in their car and go where and whenever they like

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also it is far easier to get a bus from where you live to any major town or city while the same is not possible with the train,

not from my experience, i have to go to the same place to get either one of them.

foggy_lad wrote: »

you can't have railways serving every small town and village around the country just to carry one or two students and OAP's around a few times a week!

ah you can, shur 1 carrige trains, dig up all the roads and turn the whole lot into one big gigantic railway.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Get a grip and get into the 21st century or you will be lost in the past forever!

i all ready am in the 21st century, but rickity old slow busses will never be frequented by me, at all costs, for me its railway or no way.

corktina · 07-11-2012 09:04PM

the trouble is the buses AREN'T slow any more. The advent of the motorway has made them serious competitors of Rail. Sure they are limited by speed limits much lower than rail but the end to end timing of a journey from ,say, Cork City Centre to Dublin ditto is very competitive and up to four times cheaper by coach.

holidaygirl · 07-11-2012 09:16PM

28dayslater wrote: »

I live in Mallow and last christmas myself and the missus were going to go to cork to do some christmas shopping and thought it would be nice for the young fella to get the train so we went to book it online a couple of days in advance.

It worked out at around €70.

It cost us under €20 in diesel and €5 for the park and ride when we drove.

No brainer really. Won't be using Irish Rail for that reason.

A family day return ticket now costs €24.50 from Mallow to Cork, can't be booked online as far as I know, but can be got from the ticket office or vending machines.

corktina · 07-11-2012 09:26PM

good to see offers like that, but add €3 for the car park and the petrol to drive to Mallow (about a fiver) and it looks dear compared to the €15 return plus car park that I can do driving there

28dayslater · 07-11-2012 10:18PM

holidaygirl wrote: »

A family day return ticket now costs €24.50 from Mallow to Cork, can't be booked online as far as I know, but can be got from the ticket office or vending machines.

It was at least three times that price last year because I can remeber driving back from Cork and seeing the train empty and not being surprised. But to be fair at that price we would definitely use the train.

bk · 07-11-2012 11:25PM

To be honest the whole no seats on intercity rail is no longer an issue.

Passenger numbers have fallen so quickly on Irish Rail that even the 5pm Friday to Cork has empty seats nowadays!!

A train that was once packed with people standing in the aisles now has empty seats (with maybe the exception of Christmas).

The reality seat reservations are no longer needed and the trains are safe as no one is standing.

This is due partly to the recession and reduced numbers of people travelling and partly due to competition from the new direct coach companies.

So things like extra long trains etc. are simply not needed any more.

parsi · 07-11-2012 11:59PM

The 17:00 was full his evening.

Hilly Bill · 08-11-2012 12:40AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is very obvious that Irish Rail has no respect for any passengers on their failing intercity services! If I get on a train and there are seats without reservation lights lit up or without a reservation card then I will sit on that seat for the duration of my journey!

Refusing to fix a systems which has been reported broken for several years is almost criminal considering the money that has been pumped down the Irish Rail sink-hole!

The system is broken so don't go all Irish Rail on us and blame innocent passengers for sitting in empty non-reserved seats!

Lets lock them all away in a home or mental hospital! Can't wait till its your turn!

If you board at the starting station only some seats reserved from that station are shown, none of the seats reserved from intermediate stations show until the train stops at those stations! so if I board in Cork any seats reserved from mallow will not be reserved "from mallow", the same happens on all trains on all lines! Probably a simple Fix but Irish Rail and intelligence don't make good bedfellows.

Buttevent, Malahide Estuary, Cherryville, Ballycumber Etc. When a train derails or plunges down off a viaduct wouldn't you expect many more serious injuries if there were hundreds of passengers standing?

Overreacting as usual Foggy . Where are you going with locking up people in mental homes ?
Its only common decency to move for a person who has proof that they have booked that seat. To refuse to move is just plain ignorance .
I havent said anything about passengers sitting in non reserved seats Foggy so i dont know what you are going on about there.

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 12:49AM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I havent said anything about passengers sitting in non reserved seats Foggy so i dont know what you are going on about there.

But we were discussing the issues of the reservations systems and how it does not work even though people are paying for the service,

if you book a seat from Mallow or Roscommon to Dublin you would expect that when I board in Cork or Westport your booked seat will have a reservation light and a note such as "reserved for H.Bill from Mallow/Roscommon", but this does not happen. This means that when I sit in a seat in Cork or Westport it might be reserved farther along the line but I am not being made aware of this and as such there is absolutely no obligation on me to give up my legitimately obtained seat for you even though you have a reservation and all the proof you can carry!

Jamie2k9 · 08-11-2012 12:50AM

To be honest the whole no seats on intercity rail is no longer an issue.

Passenger numbers have fallen so quickly on Irish Rail that even the 5pm Friday to Cork has empty seats nowadays!!

A train that was once packed with people standing in the aisles now has empty seats (with maybe the exception of Christmas).

The reality seat reservations are no longer needed and the trains are safe as no one is standing.

This is due partly to the recession and reduced numbers of people travelling and partly due to competition from the new direct coach companies.

So things like extra long trains etc. are simply not needed any more.

Irish Rail numbers have increased over the last while and to say there is no packed trains is just mad, I see people standing on Fridays and Sundays but even during the middle of the week when 3 car sets are put on some services.

Do you travel on trains often?

In regaurd to Cork with the large voloume of services empty seats can be expected however I have used the 17.00 a few times and its being full with people standing.

the trouble is the buses AREN'T slow any more. The advent of the motorway has made them serious competitors of Rail. Sure they are limited by speed limits much lower than rail but the end to end timing of a journey from ,say, Cork City Centre to Dublin ditto is very competitive and up to four times cheaper by coach.

It has changed things but at peak times which are the most important the train will win hands down.

it's a very good question. Selective door opening then, surely that can't cost a lot?

Did they not put out a tender for selective door opening a while ago?

Hilly Bill · 08-11-2012 01:00AM

corktina wrote: »

"lets not do it...it's too difficult to lengthen platforms and loops, and , oh , what a pity we didn't get proper vehicles to start with with generators under the floor or locos that can power the coaches"

If rail is to survive the challenges it faces, it has to have a can-do attitude.

Platforms have already been extended in a lot of stations. New stations have been built. Tracks have been doubled, signals replaced, rolling stock replaced.
There is only so much that can be done with the money available.

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 01:02AM

end of the road wrote: »

no because the will population isn't there, we can have one that is of a decent speed faster then any motor way but it will not have more than a handful of passengers, the will wasn't and isn't there.

and which other perfectly working dirty noisy smelly worn out life expired rolling stock was scrapped for to give them work and now their still isn't work for some of them. because the cost of all the staff required for loco hauled services was too great.

yeah, but they got something that travels at stone age speeds motorway speeds when they could just get in their car and go where and whenever they like

not from my experience, i have to go to the same place to get either one of them.

ah you can, shur 1 carrige trains, dig up all the roads and turn the whole lot into one big gigantic railway.

i all ready am in the 21st century, but rickity old slow busses will never be frequented by me, at all costs, for me its railway or no way. I'm on the interwebs:D

You are firmly fixed in the past of the porter and the flagman blowing his whistle to clear the train for departure. Ireland has moved on and so have coach buses but sadly some will not recognise progress unless it fits into their pre-defined moulds and fits in with their expectations.

All the express coaches are doing the Cork trip a lot faster than the trains and a lot cheaper too! they do not require dragging your bags the long journey out to the Luas stop for the 20 minute extra journey into Dublin city!

The buses serve places people actually want to go like Dublin City and the Airport!

Hilly Bill · 08-11-2012 01:02AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

But we were discussing the issues of the reservations systems and how it does not work even though people are paying for the service,

if you book a seat from Mallow or Roscommon to Dublin you would expect that when I board in Cork or Westport your booked seat will have a reservation light and a note such as "reserved for H.Bill from Mallow/Roscommon", but this does not happen. This means that when I sit in a seat in Cork or Westport it might be reserved farther along the line but I am not being made aware of this and as such there is absolutely no obligation on me to give up my legitimately obtained seat for you even though you have a reservation and all the proof you can carry!

Its only common decency to move at that point Foggy especially if you hadnt bought a ticket in the first place.

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 01:10AM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its only common decency to move at that point Foggy especially if you hadnt bought a ticket in the first place.

Not a chance and any train staff or RPU agent that tries to force the issue would risk a severe reprimand!

Why would anyone give up a legitimately obtained seat for anyone else when there is no obligation to do so regardless of how much their ticket had cost?

Common decency would be Irish Rail fixing their awful reservations system which has never worked properly! They keep charging people for a service they know they can't provide, is that fraud?

Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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