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ESB Great Electric Drive

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    #302
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    maggy_thatcher wrote: »
    It has an all-electric drivetrain, capable of running completely without fuel if you like (for short journeys - up to 80km if you drive carefully), with a petrol generator strapped on for extended range.

    Most hybrids have both the electric motor and ICE attached to the drivetrain, so it makes sense for Opel/GM to differentiate.

    I'm aware - I've even sat in the thing.

    The outline above makes it a series hybrid though - not an EV.

    The only difference between it and a Prius (parallel/"synergie" hybrid) in practice is that it has a larger battery pack (16kWh) and that the ICE has absolutely no mechanical connection to the drivetrain.


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    #303
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    RoverJames wrote: »
    They suit you as you do lots of miles etc, you fail to realise most people don't ... also the range is sh1t at the moment.

    Slightly contradictory no?


    and I do of course realise that I do more driving than many, however there's still an awful lot of people out there who are in the "change the car every 2 years" mindset - and those are the people who'll be looking towards electric in the very near future.

    In any case - the above answers why they wouldn't achieve significant market potential - but that was the easy part of the question.

    The part I'm interested in is why you guys are so adament that they *shouldn't*.

    The range is clearly a moot point. So argue to me hypothetically why I shouldn't, were I of the change every 2 years brigade, consider an EV among any similarly priced ICE options?


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    #304
    maggy_thatcher
    Registered Users Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭maggy_thatcher


    extremetaz wrote: »
    I'm aware - I've even sat in the thing.

    The outline above makes it a series hybrid though - not an EV.

    The only difference between it and a Prius (parallel/"synergie" hybrid) in practice is that it has a larger battery pack (16kWh) and that the ICE has absolutely no mechanical connection to the drivetrain.

    You can choose to make it a (heavy) EV if you like - just don't put any petrol in the tank.


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    #305
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    maggy_thatcher wrote: »
    You can choose to make it a (heavy) EV if you like - just don't put any petrol in the tank.

    rofl - ok, I'll grant you that one. :D


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    #306
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    extremetaz wrote: »
    Slightly contradictory no?


    and I do of course realise that I do more driving than many, however there's still an awful lot of people out there who are in the "change the car every 2 years" mindset - and those are the people who'll be looking towards electric in the very near future.

    In any case - the above answers why they wouldn't achieve significant market potential - but that was the easy part of the question.

    The part I'm interested in is why you guys are so adament that they *shouldn't*.

    The range is clearly a moot point. So argue to me hypothetically why I shouldn't, were I of the change every 2 years brigade, consider an EV among any similarly priced ICE options?
    I'm adament they won't, you seem to confuse that with me thinking they shouldn't for whatever reason. Many EV heads seem to be rather dictatorial, yourself included. I'm not interested in a hypothetical chat tailor made to your argumentative needs btw.
    How about you tell us about your opinion on market share over the shirt term seems as you brought it up..


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    #307
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    One thing is for certain, the cost of EV motoring would be far higher if it gains a significant market share.

    Similar to the reducing of motor tax based on co2 emmissions, which was to encourage more efficient cars be bought. Once they made up any percentage of the total, and therefore reduced the tax take, it is/will be revised.


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    #308
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well if those were the requirements it should have been in the terms and conditions in the beginning or I wouldn't have bothered me arse wasting time filling out the form!

    ....got my PFO letter as well :(

    Mind you, I didn't know you could send in Art, Video, PPT or wtf - where was that on the blurb ?

    Mind you, whoever wins it, I hope they don't live in Loughrea..........ye'll be fighting the locals for the EV parking spot.........!....either that, or this is a secret factory-prototype EV Avensis !!

    219339.jpg

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #309
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    RoverJames wrote: »
    How about you tell us about your opinion on market share over the shirt term seems as you brought it up..
    I'd like to hear it as well, you're predictions of over 10% in less than 5 years seems very optimistic, considering other predictions for the EV market.


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    #310
    vinniem
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭vinniem


    extremetaz wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    So that would mean the leaf which was 30 k now 25,500 would go back to nearly 30 k.

    Actually the €25k bit was on account of a Nissan offer - they were matching the grant for summer. That offer's expired now so even with the grant the Leaf is back up to €30

    Haha.....how many leafs on the road here??? Would guess less than 100...and will stay like that if price now back over 30k


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    #311
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    I'd like to hear it as well, you're predictions of over 10% in less than 5 years seems very optimistic, considering other predictions for the EV market.

    :rolleyes: It's not a prediction - you asked me to quantify the terms and I did. Furthermore I haven't stated anywhere that they would reach those levels.

    What I was doing was attempting to ascertain the source of the objection to such a situation - reason being that those who are actively denouncing the merits of EV's are doing so with a zeal which I find hard to comprehend. It's something akin to me attacking sports cars because they're so much more powerful than my Renault Megane - the point has absolutely no relevence to me, what I choose to drive, or how I choose to drive it, whatsoever. In short - the objection makes no sense.


    To answer RJ, my prediction is that with rising fuel prices - or even if they don't rise any farther at all, then with the release of the Ford, Citroen, Volvo, and VW EV's over the next 24 months (not to mention the 2nd gen leaf, and the Fast AC Renaults {hopefully}), you will see a significant shift towards EV's in the market - and by significant, I mean a 3-4 fold increase in proportion of cars sold which are EV's (however small that proportion may presently be is irrelevent - what matters is the relative growth of the segment).

    I doubt that this will amount to 10% of the fleet between now and 2017 but I wouldn't be at all suprised by 4-5% over that timeframe - and more importantly - I don't find the notion of 10% objectionable.


    WRT to the cost rising with increased adoption - well of course it will, that's a given, but presently the running costs are in the region of 10x cheaper than those of an economical ICE car and frankly, it's NEVER going to rise enough to bridge that gap.

    As long as the CO2 based road tax model exists, EV's won't be any dearer to tax than ICE. Revision of this system is a moot point right now as it's neither likely nor required.

    The advent of VRT would pose a significant hurdle right now, but it isn't going to happen until EV's reach the aformentioned market share levels in any case. When it does happen (and it will - nobody is saying otherwise) then it will reignite this whole debate, at which time the cost benefits will have to be reevaluated - however, it's also an entirely moot point for now.
    Adopters are only interested in the what the CAPEX is now - not what it's going to be so that argument it only a nonesense.

    And as for electricity - it's NEVER going to rise to what it would have to, to make running an EV even remotely comparable to running ICE. (Presently ~1c/km as opposed to 10c/km for petrol @ 50MPG).


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    #312
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I have a Prius MK II and I would prefer it over the rattl,e of a diesel any day.


    64 mpg per tank is not too bad either!


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    #313
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    vinniem wrote: »
    Haha.....how many leafs on the road here??? Would guess less than 100...and will stay like that if price now back over 30k

    if you give me a while I can compile the sales but it's in the region of 200 I believe - and that's the leaf only.

    There were 40 new Fluence EV's registered in the July-August period I believe - and more commercials that you'd expect as well.

    In any case though - you're correct. The €25k pricetag was a MAJOR selling point for the Leaf. The €30k pricetag puts them out of the reach and, in fact, even out of consideration, for a lot of people and Nissan will have to address this. Even I would have had trouble justifying the Leaf with the €30k pricetag.

    The Renaults though are aroundabout the €25k mark anyway on account of the battery lease and although that works out roughly the same when you factor this is, it has the benefit of at least sounding better in the marketing spiel.

    It's my understanding though that one the Nissan starts rolling off the line in the UK, that the price will get more competitive.


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    #314
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I have a Prius MK II and I would prefer it over the rattl,e of a diesel any day.


    64 mpg per tank is not too bad either!

    I'll admit to having a grudge against Hybrids - and perhaps being a little harsh on them - they have their applications.

    For an urban, single car household for example the new plug-in models are a justifyable compromise. For a two car household though, I just don't see the sense in them anymore.

    I'll definitely conceded the point wrt the diesel sound effects though. Can't really argue with that objection.


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    #315
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    It was proven that a Prius Hybrid gave less miles to the gallon than a BMW M3 did.

    The BMW was more efiecent and economical.

    So much for a Toyota Prius then.:pac::pac:


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    #316
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    If anyone thinks that there will be more leccy cars on the road than petrol or diesel in the next 5 year,then you really are living in dream land.

    And as for the Irish market being "Flooded" with 2nd hand Leafs in 2014........

    I notice the person who "stated" these "facts" has now disappeared of this thread and wont answer where he is getting his "facts" from.




    Are we gone all shy suddenly then????


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    #317
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    paddy147 wrote: »
    If anyone thinks that there will be more leccy cars on the road than petrol or diesel in the next 5 year,then you really are living in dream land.

    I believe paddy141 said that about cars v horses:D

    Just jokin paddy:)


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    #318
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    paddy147 wrote: »
    It was proven that a Prius Hybrid gave less miles to the gallon than a BMW M3 did.

    The BMW was more efiecent and economical.

    So much for a Toyota Prius then.:pac::pac:

    That's a load of nonesense - show me that study. :rolleyes:

    Got the EV figures for car sales only. It's 129 to date for 2012 including 7 Leaf this month - which means that even at €30k, they are still selling.

    I'll try get some figures for commercials as well if I can.


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    #319
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    paddy147 wrote: »
    If anyone thinks that there will be more leccy cars on the road than petrol or diesel in the next 5 year,then you really are living in dream land.

    Who said that? ... or anything like it?

    I'd agree entirely - there's no chance of that happening for quite a while yet.
    paddy147 wrote: »
    And as for the Irish market being "Flooded" with 2nd hand Leafs in 2014........

    Flooded is a bit rich alright, although there will be a secondhand market developing by then (2nd gen is due out sometime in 2013 I believe - not to mention all the newer models due for release) so it'll be a good time for those who are being kept out of the EV market by the showroom prices to have a look around.


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    #320
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,180 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    ALthough the chance of me becoming an ambassador for the EV Scheme was slim like all others, slightly disappointed too to hear about people going above and beyond in their application, when the vast majority were not told to.

    From what I remember, the box that I typed in to say why I think I should be chosen had a limited number of words available. If so, surely that meant that they didn't want people rambling on forever, and just wanted short, to the point information.

    Hearing now that everyone is a city dweller is also disappointing - how does that show that EVs can help most of drivers out there? I applied because I live rurally in a fairly remote part of the NW, and commute approx 50miles each day to work and back. This could have shown that even people living in a place where they feel they couldn't live with an EV could actually do it, including driving a decent distance to work each day, despite not being near a public recharging point.

    Ah well, wasn't to be.


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    #321
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    NIMAN wrote: »
    .....I applied because I live rurally in a fairly remote part of the NW, and commute approx 50miles each day to work and back. ..........

    A boardsie discovered a commute from Youghal to Cork (60/70 miles round trip) and back wasn't overly feasible in a Leaf, barely made it apparently on a test drive.

    50 miles total trip would be ok, still, the range of the thing is woefull.


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    #322
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    RoverJames wrote: »
    A boardsie discovered a commute from Youghal to Cork (60/70 miles round trip) and back wasn't overly feasible in a Leaf, barely made it apparently on a test drive.

    50 miles total trip would be ok, still, the range of the thing is woefull.

    Did you not apply anyway, for the free car for a year:D


  • Options
    #323
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    NIMAN wrote: »
    ALthough the chance of me becoming an ambassador for the EV Scheme was slim like all others, slightly disappointed too to hear about people going above and beyond in their application, when the vast majority were not told to.

    From what I remember, the box that I typed in to say why I think I should be chosen had a limited number of words available. If so, surely that meant that they didn't want people rambling on forever, and just wanted short, to the point information.

    Hearing now that everyone is a city dweller is also disappointing - how does that show that EVs can help most of drivers out there? I applied because I live rurally in a fairly remote part of the NW, and commute approx 50miles each day to work and back. This could have shown that even people living in a place where they feel they couldn't live with an EV could actually do it, including driving a decent distance to work each day, despite not being near a public recharging point.

    Ah well, wasn't to be.


    Its a shame alright. My pitch was more or less the same. I wanted the EV to be pushed to its limit to give a real world account of its capabilities. If its just city dwellers who will test out the EV it will mean nothing to me as I commute 120km 5 days a week.:(


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    #324
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    Richard tea wrote: »
    I commute 120km 5 days a week.:(

    For what it's worth we do 146km, 6 days between the two of us.

    There's charging required at both ends in our case - you'd likely get away without charging during the warmer months, but you'd have to charge during the winter alright.

    I agree wrt the sentiment of the study though - if it's all urban dwellers then it's pointless.

    I've not heard whether or not it actually is though - does anyone actually have that information?


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    #325
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    extremetaz wrote: »
    Who said that? ... or anything like it?

    I'd agree entirely - there's no chance of that happening for quite a while yet.



    Flooded is a bit rich alright, although there will be a secondhand market developing by then (2nd gen is due out sometime in 2013 I believe - not to mention all the newer models due for release) so it'll be a good time for those who are being kept out of the EV market by the showroom prices to have a look around.


    Go back a few pages where 1 particular member states all the above.;)

    Page 18 and post 263 to be more specific.


    What an absolute load of horseshyte.......

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80548051&postcount=263



    You even agreed with him and thanked his post too........


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    #326
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    extremetaz wrote: »
    That's a load of nonesense - show me that study. :rolleyes:


    So Top Gear didnt prove that an M3 was actually more effiecent than a Prius?

    Ok so.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badoMjA_rW0




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    #327
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    vinniem wrote: »
    extremetaz wrote: »

    Actually the €25k bit was on account of a Nissan offer - they were matching the grant for summer. That offer's expired now so even with the grant the Leaf is back up to €30

    Haha.....how many leafs on the road here??? Would guess less than 100...and will stay like that if price now back over 30k

    Jaysus I didn't realise the leaf was back at 30 k!

    If they bring Evs into the min Vrt band A of 15% that will bump it up to 34,500 euros. Or Zoe from 16,500 -18,975 Euros or much more if the eliminate the grant!

    If they had left the leaf at 25k I would have considered it in about 2 years if the job works out but not at 30 k. And adding vrt means I refuse to buy new. And I wish nobody bought new cars, that would make them get rid of vrt quick enough!

    At 23% vat cars are already taxed enough.


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    #328
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,180 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Richard tea wrote: »
    Its a shame alright. My pitch was more or less the same. I wanted the EV to be pushed to its limit to give a real world account of its capabilities. If its just city dwellers who will test out the EV it will mean nothing to me as I commute 120km 5 days a week.:(

    Perhaps they might have been afraid of us not being able to do the commute and then it would make the cars look bad.

    Give it to people only driving short distances, eh?


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    #329
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    paddy147 wrote: »
    So Top Gear didnt prove that an M3 was actually more effiecent than a Prius?

    Ok so.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badoMjA_rW0




    Does anyone actually take the lads on top gear seriously ? All it is is a bit of Craic, the lads get well paid to act like children.

    As a Prius owner I am happy, sure I miss me A4 TDI except for the diesel rattle and extra cost to run!

    People shouldn't run the Prius down just because they either never drove it or don't know how to drive it!

    People in this country have a major hard on for diesel as if it was the best thing ever, I got the Prius about 3 k cheaper with a lot less miles than I would have got a crappy 1.6 diesel of the same year.


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    #330
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Perhaps they might have been afraid of us not being able to do the commute and then it would make the cars look bad.

    Give it to people only driving short distances, eh?

    Then what's the point of the esb's charging infrastructure if most people drive 20 miles or so a day and will only charge at home ?


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    #331
    extremetaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    paddy147 wrote: »
    You even agreed with him and thanked his post too........

    [verifies and rereads the OP]

    so I did - and I do broadly agree with him. There some hyperbole in the post but the sentiment is correct and I admire his enthusiasm.

    I'll stand by it. ;)


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