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orange provocation
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maybe its because republicans are so quick in picking up on sectarianism in other communities yet are deliberately blind to their ownIs the GAA responsible for the actions of an Orange band marching in circles outside that church whilst playing sectarian tunes?
If the answer is no, then why in the fúck are we even talking about the GAA?0 -
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i have dealt with it,as far as i am concerned the band is full of hate filled setarian idiots,and the rioting ,petrol bombing, and shooting at the police,is also by sectarian idiots,something i have yet to see you condemnHappyman42 wrote: »No, it's because you refuse to deal with the subject of the thread. :rolleyes:0 -
You have not dealt with 'Orange' provocation, Yes you have condemned the individual incident but you have not dealt with assertions from a number of posters that that incident is not isolated but is encouraged, fostered, instilled, enshrined in the constitution of an inherently sectarian organisation.i have dealt with it,as far as i am concerned the band is full of hate filled setarian idiots,and the rioting ,petrol bombing, and shooting at the police,is also by sectarian idiots,something i have yet to see you condemn
You have already stated that I am 'happy' with the above ^^, despite no evidence for that assertion. I have contributed to threads on the activities of disidents, do some simple research and you will discover my view. Stop making stuff up, to suit your own agenda.0 -
Happyman42 wrote: »but you have not dealt with assertions from a number of posters that that incident is not isolated but is encouraged, fostered, instilled, enshrined in the constitution of an inherently sectarian organisation.
Maybe that's because it's not? Let's see this constitution and highlight the relevant passages. Like you say - 'Stop making stuff up, to suit your own agenda'0 -
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Maybe that's because it's not? Let's see this constitution and highlight the relevant passages. Like you say - 'Stop making stuff up, to suit your own agenda'
Start with the hypocrisy of their motto and work down, "Civil and religious liberty for all: special privileges for none".
The people of the Garvaghy Road and Ardoyne and numerous other places understand the meaning of ...'Civil' liberty, the OO, by insisting on these divisive and triumphalist 'parades' of their belief in a superior faith (which is what they are doing, if you read their positions on what an Orange 'parade' is), clearly don't.
More hypocrisy here, and the threat of violence, legitimised by their constitutional position of 'defence of the Protestant faith.The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland has stated the determination of its members "to stand fast by their legal rights. The members of the Order are on the side of tolerance and are upholders of peace but to surrender their liberties and rights would in the long run result in greater disorder".
Which flies in the face of the fact that they don't have a 'legal' right.0 -
Happyman42 wrote: »Start with the hypocrisy of their motto and work down, "Civil and religious liberty for all: special privileges for none".
Nope - not seeing anything that checks the following box:that incident is not isolated but is encouraged, fostered, instilled, enshrined in the constitution of an inherently sectarian organisation
Maybe you could provide a link to anything that supports your contention? Cause it's looking pretty much like 'making stuff up' at the moment.0 -
Nope - not seeing anything that checks the following box:
Maybe you could provide a link to anything that supports your contention? Cause it's looking pretty much like 'making stuff up' at the moment.
Where have I made stuff up?
A member of the Orange Order, on joining, is constitionally mandated to 'defend Protestantism from the demonic influences of Rome'.
That frequently allows them to violently intimidate those of Roman Catholic beliefs or no belief at all. It underpins their demands to 'parade' their beliefs where ever they see fit. And it is why they refuse to recognise the Parades Commission and to refuse membership to Roman Catholics and a myriad of other unsuitable faiths.
The Orange Order is constitutionally mandated to 'defend the Union' as they believe that it is in the Union that their civil and religious liberties are best protected, which frequently allowed them to supress the aspirations of those who wished for a United Irish Republic.
http://www.royalyork.org.uk/2007/01/qualifications-of-orangeman.html0 -
Happyman42 wrote: »Where have I made stuff up?
here:
As to the 'demonic stuff' - I'm not seeing it here. I'm seeing a sectarian constitution for sure - but it's a long way off the document you describe above.that incident is not isolated but is encouraged, fostered, instilled, enshrined in the constitution of an inherently sectarian organisation"An Orangeman should be a Protestant in reality and truth, not merely by profession or education; and should be distinguished by sincere love and veneration for his Almighty Creator' steadfast faith in the Saviour of the World, the only Mediator between God and Men; humble reliance on the guidance and purifying power of the Holy Spirit; and the constant practice of truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, loyalty and obedience to the laws. He should, moreover, be in conduct wise and prudent, honest and temperate; in disposition gentle and compassionate; in behavior kind and courteous; cultivating the society of the good and avoiding the society of the evil. He should honour and study the Holy Scriptures, making them the rule of his belief and life; uphold and defend, by all legitimate means, the Protestant Faith in Church and State; protest against and oppose the erroneous and dangerous doctrines and practices of the Church of Rome; and resist the power, ascendancy, encroachments, and extension of that Church. He should also, by all lawful means, co-operate with true Protestants in preventing or removing in and from the Established and other Protestant Churches all changes, ceremonies, practices and ornaments savouring of or resembling the Church of Rome, or inconsistent with the Reformation principles. He should oppose the ascendancy and oppressions of non-Christian religions and by prayer and witness seek to lead their members from spiritual darkness into the light of Christ. He should by his general converse, indicate his veneration for the Name of God, and abhorrence of profane and indecent language; in short the Glory of God and love of man, the honour of his Protestant Sovereign, and the good of his country, should be the principles and motives of a true Orangeman's life and actions."0 -
here:An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father, a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man. He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; he should seek the society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil; he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures, and make them the rule of his faith and practice; he should love, uphold, and defend the Protestant religion, and sincerely desire and endeavour to propagate its doctrines and precepts; he should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome and other Non-Reformed faiths, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act or ceremony of Roman Catholic or other non-Reformed Worship; he should, by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of their power, ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments towards all those who do not practice the Reformed and Christian Faith; he should remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day, and attend the public worship of God, and diligently train up his offspring, and all under his control, in the fear of God, and in the Protestant faith; he should never take the name of God in vain, but abstain from all cursing and profane language, and use every opportunity of discouraging those, and all other sinful practices, in others; his conduct should be guided by wisdom and prudence, and marked by honesty, temperance, and sobriety, the glory of God and the welfare of man, the honour of his Sovereign, and the good of his country, should be the motives of his actions.
It is the above which vindicates the OO in any action it sees fit to carry out. Both by stealth, in the corridors of power (when they had it) and in their belligerent and frequently violent reponse to others in a modernising democracy.0 -
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Happyman42 wrote: »It is the above which vindicates the OO in any action it sees fit to carry out. Both by stealth, in the corridors of power (when they had it) and in their belligerent and frequently violent reponse to others in a modernising democracy.
Rubbish. You made a claim and you're furiously backpedaling when presented with the actual document. Orangemen in opposition to Catholic Church shocker! Otherwise nothing to support your bald contentions.0 -
Maybe you could provide a link to anything that supports your contention? Cause it's looking pretty much like 'making stuff up' at the moment.
Didn't Robert Saulters, the Orange Order's Grand Master until 2011, liken all Catholics to dissident Republicans? Still that's not that unbelievable as a survey in 2011 found 60% of Orangemen believed that all Northern Catholics were IRA sympathisers anyway.
Didn't Tom Elliot face disciplinary procedures for attending the funeral mass of a murdered Catholic PSNI man as the Orange Order expressly forbids its members to attend Catholic events? In fact between 1964 and 2002 11% of all expelled members were caught in flagrante at a Catholic ceremony.
However even more damning than that is the 2004 case pursued by the former Stormont minister Adam Ingram, against George Galloway. Galloway in his book had described Ingram as playing the flute in a “sectarian, anti-Catholic, Protestant-supremacist Orange Order band”.
Immediately writs were lodged by Ingram demanding an injunction against publication. However the Court of Session in Edinburgh rejected the motion. Lord Kingarth at the Court of Session ruled that the adjectives applied by Mr Galloway, such as “anti-Catholic” and “protestant-supremacist”, were fair comment.
Truth is the perfect defence!0 -
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Unavailable for Comment wrote: »[/B]Didn't Robert Saulters, the Orange Order's Grand Master until 2011, liken all Catholics to dissident Republicans?
No he didn't.Unavailable for Comment wrote: »the Orange Order expressly forbids its members to attend Catholic events? In fact between 1964 and 2002 11% of all expelled members were caught in flagrante at a Catholic ceremony.
Pretty daft alright - but impacts only on OO members - so what skin off anyone else's nose?Unavailable for Comment wrote: »However even more damning than that is the 2004 case pursued by the former Stormont minister Adam Ingram, against George Galloway. Galloway in his book had described Ingram as playing the flute in a “sectarian, anti-Catholic, Protestant-supremacist Orange Order band”.
Immediately writs were lodged by Ingram demanding an injunction against publication. However the Court of Session in Edinburgh rejected the motion. Lord Kingarth at the Court of Session ruled that the adjectives applied by Mr Galloway, such as “anti-Catholic” and “protestant-supremacist”, were fair comment.
Truth is the perfect defence!
Defence of what? Is anyone arguing that the OO are not a sectarian organisation?0 -
Rubbish. You made a claim and you're furiously backpedaling when presented with the actual document. Orangemen in opposition to Catholic Church shocker! Otherwise nothing to support your bald contentions.
Openly sectarian organisation = divisive and cancerous influence on progress to a peaceful and equal society.
Solution = Change or disband.
That is the claim, no backpedalling here.0 -
Happyman42 wrote: »Openly sectarian organisation = divisive and cancerous influence on progress to a peaceful and equal society.
Solution = Change or disband.
That is the claim, no backpedalling here.
So - once you remove the made-up hyperbole:that incident is not isolated but is encouraged, fostered, instilled, enshrined in the constitution of an inherently sectarian organisation
Quite the revelation!0 -
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The same loyalists marched past the same church despite the parades commission stating that they were not allowed.
Others bands also broke rulings by playing music whilst marching past the Catholic Church.
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Band defies ruling on marching past Catholic church
The Young Conway Volunteers band had been banned from marching past the church
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
Band defends incident at church
Band stopped from passing church
A loyalist band filmed playing an alleged sectarian song outside a Catholic church in Belfast has defied a ruling not to pass the same church.
The Parades Commission barred the Young Conway Volunteers band from marching past St Patrick's Church on Donegall Street.
Other bands restricted to playing a single drum beat along that part of the route also breached that ruling.
There has been minor trouble along the route.
Young Conway Volunteers, a Shankill Road-based band, was filmed walking around in circles outside the church on 12 July but said it was "pure chance" that they had come to a halt there.
The band also said at the time that it was not playing the Famine Song, an anti-Irish song that originated in Glasgow.
The Royal Black Institution is parading at six locations across Northern Ireland on Saturday.
About 17,000 members are parading in Belfast, Larne, Ballynahinch, Portrush, Cookstown and Plumbridge.
The City of Belfast Grand Black Chapter demonstration is being held in the city for the first time. Previously, the Belfast parade was held in various provincial towns.
This year, it is marking the centenary of the signing of the Ulster Convenant.
About 63 preceptories are on parade in the city, including 2,300 members of the institution. They are being accompanied by 33 bands.
Route
The procession route is along Clifton Street, Donegall Street, Royal Avenue, Donegall Place, Donegall Square North, City Hall, Chichester Street, Victoria Street, High Street, Bridge Street, Waring Street, Lower Donegall Street, St. Anne's Cathedral, Donegall Street, Royal Avenue, North Street, Peters Hill, Shankill Road, Lanark Way, Mayo Street and Ainsworth Avenue.
There have also been restrictions on music being played during the feeder parade past the Ardoyne shops and past Catherine Court off the Shore Road.
A number of residents' associations have been granted permission to hold protests at the parades.
The Royal Black Institution in Belfast criticised the Parades Commission's rulings.
In a statement, it said: "The time has long past when the commission should be confined to the dustbin of history.
"They are parasites living on the misery their determinations bring to communities as they propagate cultural apartheid and exercise a Stalinist like desire to control and dictate cultural expression."
The Greater Ardoyne Residents Collective, which opposes parading by loyal orders along a contentious stretch of the Crumlin Road, at Ardoyn shops, also criticised the commission.
In a statement, it said: "These contentious marches only serve to poison community relations and further alienate and polarise our peoples, and all just to pander to the will of a few bigots who use culture as an excuse to mask and impose their outdated and obsolete triumphalism upon our community."
The statement said the march was not welcome on the stretch of road past Ardoyne shops and an alternative route should be used.
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Source.0 -
Indeed, but it shouldn't be forgotten the individuals and organizations in the Republic of Ireland who backed this "tradition" to the hilt and anyone who disagreed with them were branded as "provos" in witch hunts.Happyman42 wrote: »Openly sectarian organisation = divisive and cancerous influence on progress to a peaceful and equal society.
Examples: Conor Cruise O'Brien, Eoghan Harris, Mary Robinson (who even resigned from the Labour Party over the Anglo-Irish agreement which was an attempt at a political solution) The Workers Party/ Democratic Left, the Sindo and it's character assassination campaign against John Hume, and many other loopy groups like the Peace train, New Consensus who were even more Unionist than the Unionists themselves!
How could I possibly forget the biggest champion of this "tradition" - the one and only Fintan O'Toole.0 -
Religious fanatics creating conflict?
Unheard of!0 -
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The obvious solution to this, if you're a catholic, is to clap, cheer and/or dance when one of these marches rolls on in. Treat them like a mini parade.
They'll get so confused they'll probably have to stop.0 -
Can I applaud the leaders of two of the main Protestant churches in the North who, on BBC Radio Ulster's Talkback show, have come out and called the events of recent days exactly for what they are;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19413665The leaders of two Protestant churches in Northern Ireland have criticised as "sectarian" the actions of loyalist bands outside a Catholic Church.
Presbyterian Moderator Reverend Roy Patton said their actions were "totally unacceptable".
Church of Ireland primate Archbishop Alan Harper said it was "blatantly sectarian".
I have to say it is very reassuring to see two such Senior Protestant figures stand up to the mob of hate - something that a number of Unionist politicians could learn from.
Check out the reaction to the comments of that leading light Jim Allister!! :mad:0 -
After the most recent march, the Grand Secretary of the Orange Order has been forced to apologize after an Orange Order bandsman was caught urinating outside the same church.
Irishnews front page:-
BBC Report
Drew Nelson apologised unreservedly for the bandsman's behaviour
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
Call to condemn 'hymns breach'
BNP leader defends Fenian comment
In pictures: Covenant events
The Grand Secretary of the Orange Order has apologised unreservedly for the behaviour of a bandsman caught urinating at a Catholic Church.
Drew Nelson was responding to a photograph in Monday's Irish News which shows a drummer relieving himself at the gateway of St Matthew's Church on the Newtownards Road in east Belfast.
It happened during the Ulster Covenant commemoration parade on Saturday.
Mr Nelson said the incident was "outrageous and unacceptable".
He apologised unreservedly to the priest and parishioners of St Matthews and said the Orange Order would look into what happened.
"We are always trying to review things and we will be looking at this seriously," he told BBC NI's Good Morning Ulster programme.
At the weekend, BBC Newsline reported that bands clearly breached a Parades Commission ruling that they should only play hymns as they passed St Matthew's Church on the Newtownards Road.
A Shankill band outside St Patrick's Catholic Church in Donegall Street on Saturday
Sinn Fein called on First Minister Peter Robinson to condemn the bands who broke the ruling.
Police said evidence had been gathered and any breaches of the law would be passed to the Public Prosecution Service.
Another flashpoint on the route, where trouble flared in the summer, was outside St Patrick's Church in Donegall Street.
BBC NI Home Affairs Correspondent Vincent Kearney said: "The Parades Commission had ruled that the 14 bands taking part in this parade could only play hymn music passing the church and they did so.
"But the way in which some of the musicians played attracted criticism.
"Protesters said some tunes that they found offensive were also played just a short distance past the church and that the Parades Commision's ruling had been breached."
In east Belfast, bands breached the Parade Commission's ruling that they should play only hymn music passing St Matthew's Church. The song, The Sash, was clearly heard and some onlookers joined in, singing the words.
Speaking about the weekend parade, NI Parades Commission chair Peter Osborne said: "The fact that it was a large parade and that it passed off largely peacefully is positive.
"We are getting news of a couple of breaches and we will look at those."
Peter Osborne said the Parades Commission would examine which bands broke the ruling
He said that there had been some very good engagement and discussion between politicians, the Orange Order and church and community representatives. This signalled a situation where resolution was possible and people could move forward.
He would not comment on breaches to the commission's ruling, saying that he wanted to review reports from monitors and the police.
However, he added: "One of the things we need to look at are which bands breached the ruling and where those bands came from."
Up to 30,000 people took part in events to mark the Ulster Covenant centenary.
The biggest policing operation in Belfast for 20 years was in place for a six-mile march from central Belfast to Stormont.
It marked the anniversary of the signing of the document in 1912, which laid the foundations for the partition of Ireland and the formation of Northern Ireland a decade later.
Meanwhile, Clifton Street Orange Hall in north Belfast has been targeted in an overnight attack.
Paint was thrown at the front of the building.
It is the latest in a series incidents which normally follow parades.
DUP MLA William Humphrey said: "This was sectarian and in response to the success of Saturday's covenant parade."
He said it should be condemned just as the Orange Order had condemned what happened in east Belfast.0 -
An individual trangreesed, an organization apologized, no story here folks!Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »After the most recent march, the Grand Secretary of the Orange Order has been forced to apologize after an Orange Order bandsman was caught urinating outside the same church.
Irishnews front page:-
BBC Report
Drew Nelson apologised unreservedly for the bandsman's behaviour
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
Call to condemn 'hymns breach'
BNP leader defends Fenian comment
In pictures: Covenant events
The Grand Secretary of the Orange Order has apologised unreservedly for the behaviour of a bandsman caught urinating at a Catholic Church.
Drew Nelson was responding to a photograph in Monday's Irish News which shows a drummer relieving himself at the gateway of St Matthew's Church on the Newtownards Road in east Belfast.
It happened during the Ulster Covenant commemoration parade on Saturday.
Mr Nelson said the incident was "outrageous and unacceptable".
He apologised unreservedly to the priest and parishioners of St Matthews and said the Orange Order would look into what happened.
"We are always trying to review things and we will be looking at this seriously," he told BBC NI's Good Morning Ulster programme.
At the weekend, BBC Newsline reported that bands clearly breached a Parades Commission ruling that they should only play hymns as they passed St Matthew's Church on the Newtownards Road.
A Shankill band outside St Patrick's Catholic Church in Donegall Street on Saturday
Sinn Fein called on First Minister Peter Robinson to condemn the bands who broke the ruling.
Police said evidence had been gathered and any breaches of the law would be passed to the Public Prosecution Service.
Another flashpoint on the route, where trouble flared in the summer, was outside St Patrick's Church in Donegall Street.
BBC NI Home Affairs Correspondent Vincent Kearney said: "The Parades Commission had ruled that the 14 bands taking part in this parade could only play hymn music passing the church and they did so.
"But the way in which some of the musicians played attracted criticism.
"Protesters said some tunes that they found offensive were also played just a short distance past the church and that the Parades Commision's ruling had been breached."
In east Belfast, bands breached the Parade Commission's ruling that they should play only hymn music passing St Matthew's Church. The song, The Sash, was clearly heard and some onlookers joined in, singing the words.
Speaking about the weekend parade, NI Parades Commission chair Peter Osborne said: "The fact that it was a large parade and that it passed off largely peacefully is positive.
"We are getting news of a couple of breaches and we will look at those."
Peter Osborne said the Parades Commission would examine which bands broke the ruling
He said that there had been some very good engagement and discussion between politicians, the Orange Order and church and community representatives. This signalled a situation where resolution was possible and people could move forward.
He would not comment on breaches to the commission's ruling, saying that he wanted to review reports from monitors and the police.
However, he added: "One of the things we need to look at are which bands breached the ruling and where those bands came from."
Up to 30,000 people took part in events to mark the Ulster Covenant centenary.
The biggest policing operation in Belfast for 20 years was in place for a six-mile march from central Belfast to Stormont.
It marked the anniversary of the signing of the document in 1912, which laid the foundations for the partition of Ireland and the formation of Northern Ireland a decade later.
Meanwhile, Clifton Street Orange Hall in north Belfast has been targeted in an overnight attack.
Paint was thrown at the front of the building.
It is the latest in a series incidents which normally follow parades.
DUP MLA William Humphrey said: "This was sectarian and in response to the success of Saturday's covenant parade."
He said it should be condemned just as the Orange Order had condemned what happened in east Belfast.0 -
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DUP councillor and Orangeman, Christopher Stalford, said the "values the BNP represent are the antithesis of unionist values".
"Unionism is open and inclusive, you can come from any background and be a unionist. I don't believe that Nick Griffin had any place being there and this is exactly the sort of stunt that he thrives on," he said.
"The truth is, there were 35,000 or 40,000 people out on Saturday having a very positive and happy day.
"One knuckle-dragging MEP turning up does not mar the whole day. I just think it's sad that it has received the attention it has. That's probably mission accomplished as far as he is concerned."
It's more than a little amusing hearing an Orangeman referring to Griffin as a knuckle-dragger!! He should take a good look around his own ilk at the next lodge gathering. The OO and Griffin are a pretty good fit imo.0 -
No, hundreds of band members broke PC determinations by playing sectarian songs in Carrick Hill, and other places... AGAIN. There were no consequences for their last breaches, apologies mean fcuk all when the OO & Co book the offenders again.Slurryface wrote: »An individual trangreesed, an organization apologized, no story here folks!0 -
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Is that the shower who had the big fat orange p***k belting a drum like a happy spaz last week?0
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Anyone with a serious answer other than the tool i am quoting.Slurryface wrote: »No thats the Cork Camogie team your thinking of!:D0
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