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Kahn -v- Garcia - 14th July **spoilers inside**

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    #122
    singlesnights
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭singlesnights


    I really don't understand what Khan has done to generate so much hate.

    Is it because he is cocky or that people are upset by the hype surrounding him which they feel is undeserved?


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    #123
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    If Paulie Malignaggi is a 147 lbs champ, then Khan was a 140 lbs champ. Remember the discussion on Paulie? Khan destroyed him.

    Never said otherwise.

    You rave about how good he is all the time, he's average with a few good points, Malignaggi is feather fisted or otherwise he would be a proper top class boxer-plus i don't go on about Malignaggi as he's like Khan, just not good enough, just having a title does not mean your top class either, Khan could be beaten by several lads in his weight due to his chin AND poor defence.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #124
    supersean1999
    Registered Users Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭supersean1999


    walshb wrote: »
    Who's arguing? I prefer to call it a civil discussion, but if you really think it's arguing, and that doesn't suit you, so be it.

    you do like to try and keep something going, its called arguing your point, call it what you like , , khan has been exposed and battered again ,and i for one hope i dont see sky trying to sell him again as something he is not, an he is on tv now comparing himself to ali and tyson and how the great champs came back, the lad is deluded ,


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    #125
    supersean1999
    Registered Users Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭supersean1999


    singlesnights wrote: »
    I really don't understand what Khan has done to generate so much hate.

    Is it because he is cocky or that people are upset by the hype surrounding him which they feel is undeserved?

    ya all the above , i dont hate him thats to strong, i simple like when he loses :)


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    #126
    supersean1999
    Registered Users Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭supersean1999


    singlesnights wrote: »
    I really don't understand what Khan has done to generate so much hate.

    Is it because he is cocky or that people are upset by the hype surrounding him which they feel is undeserved?

    ya all the above , i dont hate him thats to strong, i simply like when he loses :)


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    #127
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    supersean1999 wrote: »
    you do like to try and keep something going, its called arguing your point, call it what you like , , khan has been exposed and battered again ,and i for one hope i dont see sky trying to sell him again as something he is not, an he is on tv now comparing himself to ali and tyson and how the great champs came back, the lad is deluded ,

    Yes, he was exposed. Who said he was not? I simply said that he was exciting, came to fight and was ambitious. Is that false? His punch resistance is his biggest let down. BTW, forget about past past posts. My recent ones on this thread spell out why Khan lost and why Khan is always a risk when meeting a decent hitter.

    Why is it that when someone tries to give the lad some praise etc that we are then accused of overrating him? Khan is what he is. Has achieved a lot with what he has got. His weaknesses have prevented him from being the best. His chin is his prime weakness. I don't see anyone here arguing that point.


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    #128
    corny
    Registered Users Posts: 7,782 ✭✭✭corny


    singlesnights wrote: »
    I really don't understand what Khan has done to generate so much hate.

    Is it because he is cocky or that people are upset by the hype surrounding him which they feel is undeserved?

    People get far too worked up about what boxers say to the media. 99% of it is pure bull**** designed to provoke a reaction.


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    #129
    supersean1999
    Registered Users Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭supersean1999


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes, he was expposed. Who said he was not? I simply said that he was exciting, came to fight and was ambitious. Is that false? His punch resistance is his biggest let down. BTW, forget about past past posts. My recent ones on this thread spell out why Khan lost and why Khan is always a risk when meeting a decent hitter.

    Why is it that when someone tries to give the lad some praise etc that we are then accused of overrating him? Khan is what he is. Has achieved a lot with what he has got. His weaknesses have prevented him from being the best. His chin is his prime weakness. I don't see anyone here arguing that point.

    ok ill forget all your other posts EVER the new walshb starts here, nice to meet you :rolleyes:, talk again


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    #130
    T.C.O.B
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭T.C.O.B


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes, he was expposed. Who said he was not? I simply said that he was exciting, came to fight and was ambitious. Is that false? His punch resistance is his biggest let down. BTW, forget about past past posts. My recent ones on this thread spell out why Khan lost and why Khan is always a risk when meeting a decent hitter.

    Why is it that when someone tries to give the lad some praise etc that we are then accused of overrating him? Khan is what he is. Has achieved a lot with what he has got. His weaknesses have prevented him from being the best. His chin is his prime weakness. I don't see anyone here arguing that point.

    He came to box but foolishly ended up in a fight. Whatever about a dodgy chin his prime weakness seems to be an inability to stick to a gameplan.


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    #131
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    supersean1999 wrote: »
    ok ill forget all your other posts EVER the new walshb starts here, nice to meet you :rolleyes:, talk again

    Well, should you ever come across a post of mine that implies that Khan was the goat, or that Khan had no weaknesses, or that Khan's beard was grade A, or that Khan was very rounded as a pro, or that Khan was great on the inside, do let me know. Otherwise, you too, have a nice day!


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    #132
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    T.C.O.B wrote: »
    He came to box but foolishly ended up in a fight. Whatever about a dodgy chin his prime weakness seems to be an inability to stick to a gameplan.

    Fair point. But, he simply got caught and did not take the shot well enough, and like I said, he has not got the innate ring smarts to avoid getting tagged clean and heavy for 12 rds. Gameplans or not, eventually he has to open up and eventually that will possibly lead to him having to take a clean shot.

    Could he have boxed real real clever and careful and beat Garcia? Possibly. But, it will always be a risk and will always be edge of the seat stuff, which is why Khan is so exciting. His vulnerabilities make that so.

    Ok, talk about gameplans for a second: Stick and move and don't get caught flush for 36 mins. That is a pretty ambitious plan, no? And, Amir doesn't have a plan B or C. He has very little inside game, and has not got the silky defensive skills either.


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    #133
    SlickRic
    Registered Users Posts: 36,171 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    Khan's problem is down to mentality and tactical awareness IMO, as well as his apparent desperation to break the US market with his "wars".

    he won't win "wars" on a consistent basis.

    he outboxed Garcia when he concentrated on boxing, but he was obsessed with getting far too involved too often. he just doesn't seem to know how to box clever.

    he's not in PBF league for instance, but using him as a comparison, PBF doesn't care how boring his fight is. he will just outbox you. he won't engage you unnecessarily. he won't get into a war, because he knows that he's not as likely to win a fight that way.

    Khan seems obsessed to prove to everyone that he's a "fighter". no, he's a very skilled boxer. and until he concentrates on that, and does way with this mentality of getting into "wars", even if he does come back, he will be found out again.

    All Garcia had to do was wait for his moment, as he knew Khan would come in quickly one too many times.


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    #134
    Johnny_BravoIII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 308 ✭✭Johnny_BravoIII


    For me Khan is guilty of showing more heart that head.
    It's almost as if his KO against Prescott has led him to having to constantly prove himself in tough situations. There's no way he should of been engaging in the 4th. Stick, move.........tie the other guy up.
    The left hook was coming all night long.
    I can't see Khan having a long career.


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    #135
    T.C.O.B
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭T.C.O.B


    walshb wrote: »
    Fair point. But, he simply got caught and did not take the shot well enough, and like I said, he has not got the innate ring smarts to avoid getting tagged clean and heavy for 12 rds. Gameplans or not, eventually he has to open up and eventually that will possibly lead to him having to take a clean shot.

    Could he have boxed real real clever and careful and beat Garcia? Possibly. But, it will always be a risk and will always be edge of the seat stuff, which is why Khan is so exciting. His vulnerabilities make that so.

    Ok, talk about gameplans for a second: Stick and move and don't get caught flush for 36 mins. That is a pretty ambitious plan, no? And, Amir doesn't have a plan B or C. He has very little inside game, and has not got the silky defensive skills either.

    SlickRic beat me to it but Flloyd has made a carear out of the "stick and move" style (granted he's a far superior ring technichan than Kahn). I will concede that Kahn was "caught" with that shot in the 3rd after boxing well up to that point but he did leave himself vulernable to a shot after coming in with his hands so low. From that point tactics seem to go out the window (I know it was a pretty heavy shot but he did get to the end of the round), similarly in the Peterson fight he needlessly got involved in a war against a guy who shouldn't really have been in his class. It seems an inability to stick to a suitable gameplan is an inherent flaw.

    If, as you say, he has little inside game and clearly a less than great chin why would he employ any tactics other than stick and move? "Gameplans or not, eventually he has to open up and eventually that will possibly lead to him having to take a clean shot." Why does he have to eventually open up, he won the first two rounds easily while keeping Garcia at arms length.

    "Ok, talk about gameplans for a second: Stick and move and don't get caught flush for 36 mins. That is a pretty ambitious plan, no?" Sounds like the most effective plan for a fighter with Kahns skillset. The idea of stick and move is to get in and get out, frustrating the other fighter and leaving them mostly groping at thin air. Sure you'll get hit with some shots but if the plan is carried out effectivily it should be mostly glancing and low power shots which you receive. The key point is that surely Kahn is far far more likely to get caught flush if he decides to open up and trade because as you've agreed he's got no inside game and a questionable chin. Then logically but using his speed and fast hands he should be far more evassive when fighting on the outside.


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    #136
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    SlickRic wrote: »
    Khan's problem is down to mentality and tactical awareness IMO, as well as his apparent desperation to break the US market with his "wars".

    he won't win "wars" on a consistent basis.

    he outboxed Garcia when he concentrated on boxing, but he was obsessed with getting far too involved too often. he just doesn't seem to know how to box clever.

    he's not in PBF league for instance, but using him as a comparison, PBF doesn't care how boring his fight is. he will just outbox you. he won't engage you unnecessarily. he won't get into a war, because he knows that he's not as likely to win a fight that way.

    .

    Yes, he is not PBF, and that lack of innate defense will always see him at risk, gameplan or not, patience and cautiousness or not.

    I don't think tactics or awareness are the issue. Chin and lack of crafty defense skills are the problem


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    #137
    MMAIRELANDFAN
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭MMAIRELANDFAN


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes, he is not PBF, and that lack of innate defense will always see him at risk, gameplan or not, patience and cautiousness or not.

    I don't think tactics or awareness are the issue. Chin and lack of crafty defense skills are the problem

    A poor inside game and defense is his biggest issue

    With them he would have much more chance in people not even knowing his chin is bad.


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    #138
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    T.C.O.B wrote: »
    SlickRic beat me to it but Flloyd has made a carear out of the "stick and move" style (granted he's a far superior ring technichan than Kahn). I will concede that Kahn was "caught" with that shot in the 3rd after boxing well up to that point but he did leave himself vulernable to a shot after coming in with his hands so low. From that point tactics seem to go out the window (I know it was a pretty heavy shot but he did get to the end of the round), similarly in the Peterson fight he needlessly got involved in a war against a guy who shouldn't really have been in his class. It seems an inability to stick to a suitable gameplan is an inherent flaw.

    If, as you say, he has little inside game and clearly a less than great chin why would he employ any tactics other than stick and move? "Gameplans or not, eventually he has to open up and eventually that will possibly lead to him having to take a clean shot." Why does he have to eventually open up, he won the first two rounds easily while keeping Garcia at arms length.

    "Ok, talk about gameplans for a second: Stick and move and don't get caught flush for 36 mins. That is a pretty ambitious plan, no?" Sounds like the most effective plan for a fighter with Kahns skillset. The idea of stick and move is to get in and get out, frustrating the other fighter and leaving them mostly groping at thin air. Sure you'll get hit with some shots but if the plan is carried out effectivily it should be mostly glancing and low power shots which you receive. The key point is that surely Kahn is far far more likely to get caught flush if he decides to open up and trade because as you've agreed he's got no inside game and a questionable chin. Then logically but using his speed and fast hands he should be far more evassive when fighting on the outside.


    Like I said, he could well beat many if he purely stuck to being very very careful, but it's nowhere near a certainty. He will have to open up, and by that I don't mean reckless throwing. He will have to engage at some stage, whether that be rangey shooting or shorter shooting. It is risky. Unless he's figting dummies, the good lads will at some stage plant a clean shot on the chin.


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    #139
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »
    A poor inside game and defense is his biggest issue

    With them he would have much more chance in people not even knowing his chin is bad.

    Good post.

    I agree, but also, the ability to take and shake a shot are big problems. Even with the inside game and defense, something will get thru. Even PBF has been tagged clean, as have many other far more defensive men than Khan.

    Khan will never be a PBF or similar. It is just not his style. Applies to many fighters and many styles. Sometimes a boxer has to make the most of what skills and style and traits he has.


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    #140
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,680 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    walshb wrote: »
    . Sure, he can move, stick and run, but that is always risky.

    As opposed to trying to slug it out in fights with his glaring weakiness being his poor punch resistance? He's is more than capable of outboxing the likes of Garcia. I think he in fact fought angry against Garcia. Roach hinted that he deviated from the game plan. If that's to believed, then he was definitely rattled by the comments of Garcia's father and wanted to punish Garcia by proving he could go toe to toe with him.
    Also he probably believed he had answered his critics by surviving against Maidana. If he has any nous at all, he'll learn to cut out the macho nonsense after this and fight to his strengths.


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    #141
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    nacho libre wrote: »
    As opposed to trying to slug it out in fights with his glaring weakiness being his poor punch resistance? He's is more than capable of outboxing the likes of Garcia. I think he in fact fought angry against Garcia. Roach hinted that he deviated from the game plan. If that's to believed, then he was definitely rattled by the comments of Garcia's father and wanted to punish Garcia by proving he could go toe to toe with him.
    Also he probably believed he had answered his critics by surviving against Maidana. If he has any nous at all, he'll learn to cut out the macho nonsense after this and fight to his strengths.

    I never said that sticking and moving was as risky as trading openly. It is not. Yes, sticking and moving could have seen Khan win. But even with this in mind one must consider that he has to avoid getting clean tagged for 36 minutes, and like I said, far better tacticians and defensive boxers have been tagged clean.

    Khan did try a bit to get away from Garcia in the final rd; he couldn't, and was left with little option but to return fire. I mean, the very first knock down was down to pure timing. Khan threw and Garcia timed it and landed. This can happen to anyone, even PBF, but PBFs chin is better, as is his ring generalship! That first shot was the end of Khan, even with the minute break between rds.


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    #142
    boxer.fan
    Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭boxer.fan


    Statement from Khan here

    The guy has been fairly well found out now on a number of occasions. I still think he is young enough to step back and return to be a much improved fighter. He will always be disliked by many, similar to the likes of Hamed, but his family / management have a lot to answer for in this regard. Hopefully they will p*** off now and give the guy a chance to make his way back.


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    #143
    T.C.O.B
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭T.C.O.B


    walshb wrote: »
    I never said that sticking and moving was as risky as trading openly. It is not. Yes, sticking and moving could have seen Khan win. But even with this in mind one must consider that he has to avoid getting clean tagged for 36 minutes, and like I said, far better tacticians and defensive boxers have been tagged clean.

    Khan did try a bit to get away from Garcia in the final rd; he couldn't, and was left with little option but to return fire. I mean, the very first knock down was down to pure timing. Khan threw and Garcia timed it and landed. This can happen to anyone, even PBF, but PBFs chin is better, as is his ring generalship! That first shot was the end of Khan, even with the minute break between rds.

    The clear implication from your posts is that Kahn has to open up at stage and can't stick and move for the whole fight. Why do you believe this to be the case? You put forward a bit of a straw man arguement suggesting that he could get tagged playing stick and move. No one has been saying he couldn't get hit with those tactics, it's just that they would be the best tactics to employ. Of course you can get tagged playing playing stick and move but this is true for whatever style you use.

    You also said earlier he lacks the innate defensive skills. Would you not agree that this can be learned, particulary by someone with Kahns traits (speed, agility etc)? He's got a top trainer in his corner who clearly devised a reasonabley defensive gameplan which was working for 2 and half rounds until Kahn deviated from it.

    Tbh, I'm actually struggling understand what you're trying to agrue here.


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    #144
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    T.C.O.B wrote: »
    He's got a top trainer in his corner who clearly devised a reasonabley defensive gameplan which was working for 2 and half rounds until Kahn deviated from it.

    Roach is an attack minded coach, I think Khan needs a defensive minded coach like Mayweather if he is to change things enough to use his abilities to there best.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #145
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    T.C.O.B wrote: »
    The clear implication from your posts is that Kahn has to open up at stage and can't stick and move for the whole fight. Why do you believe this to be the case? You put forward a bit of a straw man arguement suggesting that he could get tagged playing stick and move. No one has been saying he couldn't get hit with those tactics, it's just that they would be the best tactics to employ. Of course you can get tagged playing playing stick and move but this is true for whatever style you use.

    You also said earlier he lacks the innate defensive skills. Would you not agree that this can be learned, particulary by someone with Kahns traits (speed, agility etc)? He's got a top trainer in his corner who clearly devised a reasonabley defensive gameplan which was working for 2 and half rounds until Kahn deviated from it.

    Tbh, I'm actually struggling understand what you're trying to agrue here.

    I am not arguing anything. I clearly said that stick and move would be a better option. I said this in the post above. It's less risky than openly trading. But, it's still risky, and over 36 mins it would be very difficult to perform.

    All I am pointing out is that even with ultra caution etc I still fell that his lack of innate defensive skills and the chin will be a big risk.

    PBF, Toney, Pea type defense skills are not learned. They are born. Yes, one can improve a defense, but the real crafty men are born that way. Khan will never really develop skills close to that level, hence he will always be at a big risk from taking a shot. Even if he learns certain new skills and tricks, it may not be near enough to avoid a clean hit to the head/jaw.

    Khan won't learn all that much form here apart from sticking and moving a bit more. And, yes, that can help, but my point is that it's probably not enough. His punch resistance is not up to it.


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    #146
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    PBF, Toney, Pea type defense skills are not learned. They are born. Yes, one can improve a defense, but the real crafty men are born that way. Khan will never really develop skills close to that level, hence he will always be at a big risk from taking a shot. Even if he learns certain new skills and tricks, it may not be near enough to avoid a clean hit to the head/jaw.

    Khan won't learn all that much form here apart from sticking and moving a bit more. And, yes, that can help, but my point is that it's probably not enough. His punch resistance is not up to it.

    They are Definitely learned skills, thing is their learning them all their lives-there styles of defensive boxing relies on planting the feet a lot too so i don't see it suiting Khan at all, better focus on defensive footwork and weaving etc..

    You might be born to be strong, fast, solid chinned etc but not to have a great defense.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #147
    Kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 13,084 ✭✭✭✭Kirby


    walshb wrote: »

    Khan won't learn all that much form here apart from sticking and moving a bit more. .

    I disagree. 90% of boxing is mental and I think this crushing defeat will be a turning point for him. I think he will finally realise that it is better to win, than to entertain.

    He is better than Garcia and it was his ego that lost him the fight. I think deep down he knows this. This is the kick up the backside he needs that will make him play to his strengths. Hit and run. Thats what he is good at and he should not be doing anything else. He went looking for Garcia when he should have been picking him off and backtracking for 12 rounds.

    He will always lose the occasional fight because of his weak punch resistance. Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut and he will eventually be caught. But if he wisens up to what he needs to do, he will win the vast majority of his fights.


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    #148
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    They are Definitely learned skills, thing is their learning them all their lives-there styles of defensive boxing relies on planting the feet a lot too so i don't see it suiting Khan at all, better focus on defensive footwork and weaving etc..

    You might be born to be strong, fast, solid chinned etc but not to have a great defense.

    Learned and improved, but also very natural and innate. PBF and some others have this natural skill and ability. Just like Khan has that raw and blinding speed. Sure, we can all improve and learn, but the elite guys have it to begin with in abundance.


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    #149
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,025 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Kirby wrote: »
    I disagree. 90% of boxing is mental and I think this crushing defeat will be a turning point for him. I think he will finally realise that it is better to win, than to entertain.
    .

    We had a debate about that before. Yes, mental strength is important, but all the mental strength in the world won't save a man with a weak chin should the man get caught clean.

    I agree, he is a better boxer than Garcia. But, sometimes that is not enough. Garcia doesn't impress me that much.


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    #150
    Kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 13,084 ✭✭✭✭Kirby


    I wasn't talking about mental strength in the way you mean it. You are talking about "heart" and determination and having the will to get back up etc. etc. and how all the will in the world doesn't matter if he gets caught clean.

    I am not talking about that. I'm talking about having the intelligence to realise what you did wrong. Outside of the ring. He will either be told by roach or realise himself that if he wants to be a top fighter he needs to stop pandering to the masses and looking for flashy shots and play "boring" keep away for 12 rounds. He can win if he does that. And I think this is the fight that might finally make him realise that.


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    #151
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,680 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    walshb wrote: »
    I never said that sticking and moving was as risky as trading openly. It is not. Yes, sticking and moving could have seen Khan win. But even with this in mind one must consider that he has to avoid getting clean tagged for 36 minutes, and like I said, far better tacticians and defensive boxers have been tagged clean.

    Khan did try a bit to get away from Garcia in the final rd; he couldn't, and was left with little option but to return fire. I mean, the very first knock down was down to pure timing. Khan threw and Garcia timed it and landed. This can happen to anyone, even PBF, but PBFs chin is better, as is his ring generalship! That first shot was the end of Khan, even with the minute break between rds.

    Yes, there is a risk even in utilising that strategy, that he'll get caught by the better fighters.
    However, i believe against the likes of Garcia he would have fun comfortably enough on points using it. Khan, as has been mentioned, is not a defensive maestro, so there is always the risk he'll be caught with crisp punches by more accomplished fighters than Garcia, but at least he'll have a greater chance of winning by fighting smartly rather than choosing to have a tear up. You can tell that Roach is bucking with him for not sticking to the plan.
    Anyway a former opponent put it best about him: Khan is a compelling Boxer to watch,because he's a word class fighter with a world class vulnerability- well obviously some here see him as less than world class. I don't see him ever beating Mayweather, but i think he can come back and win a world title, one that has merit, again.


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