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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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Comments

  • #1402
    tatabubbly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭tatabubbly


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    tatabubbly wrote: »
    I'm not a christian really but i always thought if you brought a child into the world that was unloved/starved/abused due to the fact that it was an unplanned pregnancy, is it catholic behaviour?
    i'm pro-choice. i couldnt personally have an abortion, i'm a scientist and for me life starts at implantation however i dont think the catholic church have the right to judge anyone on their moral behaviour.

    only the big man upstairs can judge anyone..

    You lost your science when you said 'for me' - that's relativism. Science says life starts at conception, not implantation. Come on man, this is basic biology!!!

    You can't judge persons, but you can and you must judge actions, and abortion is a moral evil.

    If I killed your family in a fit of rage, would you say that my actions were evil? Why? What right have you to pass judgement on me?

    i wouldn't say your actions are 'evil' as such as i don't use that word but i would say they were wrong.

    if your against abortion then in my eyes its like saying every woman in the world is a walking incubator and has no right over her own body.

    science says a whole lot about life, also it says a lot about death, definitions differ.


  • #1403
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    I can just as easily say that many women are pressured into keeping a child they do not want.
    It happens, and that's unfortunate and horrible in both cases.

    But I'm really trying to avoid the emotional arguments being thrown around on both sides of the debate here, so I am talking about the individual free will of the woman involved.
    There is no point in this incredibly sensitive discussion if people are going to throw out words they know will come across as emotional to suit their agenda.

    So. Here is the situation as it currently stands. From Citizens Information
    Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life, (as distinct from the health) of the mother. This includes a risk arising from a threat of suicide. The Irish Medical Council ethical guidelines to doctors state that 'it is not unethical if a child in utero should suffer or lost its life as a side effect of standard medical treatment of the mother'.

    Women may not be prevented from travelling abroad to get an abortion. It is lawful to provide information in Ireland about abortions abroad, subject to strict conditions. It is not lawful to encourage or advocate an abortion in individual cases.

    The debate now (though I realize the odds of that happening on this forum are slim) should focus on whether or not the procedure should be carried out here in Ireland, or continue with the current system of sending them to the U.K. to get it done.

    -Regardless- of your opinion of the morality of the situation, should we continue to force those who choose to have an abortion travel to the U.K., or allow them to have it done here at home, where they can avail of full moral support from family and friends.


  • #1404
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    tatabubbly wrote: »
    i wouldn't say your actions are 'evil' as such as i don't use that word but i would say they were wrong.

    if your against abortion then in my eyes its like saying every woman in the world is a walking incubator and has no right over her own body.

    science says a whole lot about life, also it says a lot about death, definitions differ.


    Every woman has the right over her own body.. never a truer word said.. It also applies to a woman in the womb of her mother and to her brother.


  • #1405
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    If she aborts, who am I to judge her. But I can defend the principle that all people are equal, and all life is sacred.. No baby is more or less important. Everyone should be respected. Even the Child in the womb.

    You can't judge her soul, but you can and must judge her actions as gravely immoral. It is always an evil thing to kill a child.


  • #1406
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    The debate now (though I realize the odds of that happening on this forum are slim) should focus on whether or not the procedure should be carried out here in Ireland, or continue with the current system of sending them to the U.K. to get it done.

    If a woman's life is a risk in Ireland an abortion will be carried out. Its not called abortion as the intention is not to target the Child. We don't need to change anything.

    Many of these procedures happen in Ireland every year. Happened to my friend. Everything is done to save BOTH parties. But sadly sometimes the Child dies to save the mothers life.


  • #1407
    tatabubbly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭tatabubbly


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    tatabubbly wrote: »
    i wouldn't say your actions are 'evil' as such as i don't use that word but i would say they were wrong.

    if your against abortion then in my eyes its like saying every woman in the world is a walking incubator and has no right over her own body.

    science says a whole lot about life, also it says a lot about death, definitions differ.


    Every woman has the right over her own body.. never a truer word said.. It also applies to a woman in the womb of her mother and to her brother.

    but what you just said implies what i said above.. that its like treating women as walking incubators.

    At what second exactly does the embryo become a woman? when they are inside the womb or when they are old enough to make their own choices about their body and reproductive system?

    But what about the child who comes from an unwanted pregnancy? Its a hard truth to grow up knowing your not wanted. It's also difficult to grow up in a world if your born into poverty.
    Is there an answer to these questions as well?

    The church should not be involved when it comes to a health matter. If the catholic church doesn't agree with it, thats fine but they should not have the right to stop someone. Free will and all that jazz


  • #1408
    Blue_Seas
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Blue_Seas


    Can I ask a question?

    If abortion remained illegal, what should be the penalty for someone who has an illegal abortion?


  • #1409
    neemish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭neemish


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    You can't judge her soul, but you can and must judge her actions as gravely immoral. It is always an evil thing to kill a child.


    "Let he who is without sin......." it's not our place to judge.
    I do not agree with abortion, but as for judgement - that's for God, not me (or you)


  • #1410
    Blue_Seas
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Blue_Seas


    Actually I'm not even going to go through the whole rigmarole myself. "How to confuse a pro-lifer with one question".



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  • #1411
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Blue_Seas wrote: »
    Can I ask a question?

    If abortion remained illegal, what should be the penalty for someone who has an illegal abortion?


    I'm sorry to say the penalty is life imprisonment, whether that would happen in reality I don't know and sincerely hope not.


    For anyone interested in reading genuine information and abortion stories there is a website called women on web you might like to look at. Many Irish women have contributed.


  • #1412
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    tatabubbly wrote: »
    but what you just said implies what i said above.. that its like treating women as walking incubators.

    At what second exactly does the embryo become a woman? when they are inside the womb or when they are old enough to make their own choices about their body and reproductive system?

    But what about the child who comes from an unwanted pregnancy? Its a hard truth to grow up knowing your not wanted. It's also difficult to grow up in a world if your born into poverty.
    Is there an answer to these questions as well?

    The church should not be involved when it comes to a health matter. If the catholic church doesn't agree with it, thats fine but they should not have the right to stop someone. Free will and all that jazz


    So the Circumstances of a pregnancy determine the value of the person? So only if the mother feels like she wants the child does that Child that exists have value?



    Again what's with "The Church". Which Church. There are 20,000+ Christian Church's against abortion.


  • #1413
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Blue_Seas wrote: »
    Actually I'm not even going to go through the whole rigmarole myself. "How to confuse a pro-lifer with one question".

    I liked the old women's response. Its wrong, its killing a person.


  • #1414
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    neemish wrote: »
    "Let he who is without sin......." it's not our place to judge.
    I do not agree with abortion, but as for judgement - that's for God, not me (or you)

    wE JUDGE ACTIONS ALL THE TIME - IT'S GOOD TO HAVE AN ICE CREAM, IT'S BAD TO EAT A WHOLE TUB. (Sorry, caps lock but I ain't typing that again!)

    We can and must judge/discern actions, both our own and others. See here.


  • #1415
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    The Rape and abortion argument is a tiny proportion of the abortions that happen. 99+% of abortions are not the result of Rape.

    You can turn the argument and ask.. Is it the child's fault he or she was conceived? Does who your father is or where you were born or what your mother thinks make you any more or less valuable as a human being?

    I am not going to comment on a womans state of mind after rape. If she aborts, who am I to judge her. But I can defend the principle that all people are equal, and all life is sacred.. No baby is more or less important. Everyone should be respected. Even the Child in the womb.
    It doesn't matter though, the number of abortions that are a undertaken due to rape; if a person agrees to the principal that a victim of rape should have the right to an abortion, then (due to the logic in my previous posts, surrounding proof of rape) the only practical solution is to allow abortion for all women.

    You (indirectly) support the idea that a victim of rape that becomes pregnant, should be forced to endure both pregnancy and that she should be forced to support that child, compounding the victimization of the woman and having an enormously significant effect on all areas of her life.

    Is this not massively unfair on that person?


  • #1416
    tatabubbly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭tatabubbly


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    So the Circumstances of a pregnancy determine the value of the person? So only if the mother feels like she wants the child does that Child that exists have value?



    Again what's with "The Church". Which Church. There are 20,000+ Christian Church's against abortion.

    yep, the circumstances matter. to say they don't is silly. What happens if you couldn't afford to keep a child? What happens if you had a child and got depressed and the kid carried around around that resentment all of their life?

    "the church" to me is the opposing churches here in ireland today.


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  • #1417
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    If a woman's life is a risk in Ireland an abortion will be carried out. Its not called abortion as the intention is not to target the Child. We don't need to change anything.

    Many of these procedures happen in Ireland every year. Happened to my friend. Everything is done to save BOTH parties. But sadly sometimes the Child dies to save the mothers life.
    If a woman is a suicide risk, can she get an abortion in Ireland? No, she can't. It would be illegal. However, the law that makes it illegal is unconstitutional, and has been voted as such on two occasions by the electorate after a Supreme Court ruling. Where's your calls for democracy to be respected on that issue?

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  • #1418
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    KyussBishop wrote: »

    You (indirectly) support the idea that a victim of rape that becomes pregnant, should be forced to endure both pregnancy and that she should be forced to support that child, compounding the victimization of the woman and having an enormously significant effect on all areas of her life.

    Is this not massively unfair on that person?

    Is it not also unfair that aside from the truama of having been raped, the victims (both mother and child) have to go through the added trauma of an abortion and possibly a lifelong guilt for killing an innocent child, which happens in a lot of cases -two wrongs don't make a right!


  • #1419
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Is it not also unfair that aside from the truama of having been raped, the victims (both mother and child) have to go through the added trauma of an abortion and possibly a lifelong guilt for killing an innocent child, which happens in a lot of cases -two wrongs don't make a right!

    Seems that some pro-lifers wish to create that sense of guilt for women who have had abortions by transposing their moral code onto those women.


  • #1420
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Is it not also unfair that aside from the truama of having been raped, the victims (both mother and child) have to go through the added trauma of an abortion and possibly a lifelong guilt for killing an innocent child, which happens in a lot of cases -two wrongs don't make a right!
    That's avoiding my argument though, and the logic doesn't make sense either because the woman wouldn't be forced to go through an abortion, she would only be given the option to choose it.

    Also, it's nothing to do with "two wrongs don't make a right"; saying that doesn't make sense, because the abortion isn't being undertaken to punish anybody.

    None of this addresses the principal arguments of my post, on whether or not victims of rape should have the right to an abortion, so that (if they become pregnant) the victimization of the woman is not compounded through being forced to go through pregnancy and supporting the child, and the massively significant effects that would have on her life.


  • #1421
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    That's avoiding my argument though, and the logic doesn't make sense either because the woman wouldn't be forced to go through an abortion, she would only be given the option to choose it.

    Also, it's nothing to do with "two wrongs don't make a right"; saying that doesn't make sense, because the abortion isn't being undertaken to punish anybody.

    None of this addresses the principal arguments of my post, on whether or not victims of rape should have the right to an abortion, so that (if they become pregnant) the victimization of the woman is not compounded through being forced to go through pregnancy and supporting the child, and the massively significant effects that would have on her life.


    What about adoption, there are many who would love to raise a family and cannot - I for one adopted for which I am forever grateful to the mother for making such a huge sacrifice!


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  • #1422
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    Blue_Seas wrote: »
    Actually I'm not even going to go through the whole rigmarole myself. "How to confuse a pro-lifer with one question".


    I'd say there should be a prison sentence for this crime. I don't know why those folks had such a problem answering a question. They must be soft in the head.


  • #1423
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    tatabubbly wrote: »
    yep, the circumstances matter. to say they don't is silly. What happens if you couldn't afford to keep a child? What happens if you had a child and got depressed and the kid carried around around that resentment all of their life?

    "the church" to me is the opposing churches here in ireland today.

    Once you errode the principle of respect for human life above and beyond opinions and circumstances then you bring humanity down to a level of a dog..

    Even human being is unique and should be respected no matter where its born, or how rich its parents are or how they think.

    Our opinions should not detract from the value of each human being


  • #1424
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Every woman must decide whether she is willing to bring forth life. It is actually their decision and it can't happen without her consent. Your objection is to women controlling something they own. Their body. Attempting to superceed the female right to end a pregnancy is no better than forcibly restraining a woman until the foetus has reached the stage of development where it would be viable outside the womb, and cutting the child from her womb alive and yoking her to the child physically, then waving bye bye with the satisfaction that you have done the ''right'' thing. It's ludicrous.


  • #1425
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    That's avoiding my argument though, and the logic doesn't make sense either because the woman wouldn't be forced to go through an abortion, she would only be given the option to choose it.

    Also, it's nothing to do with "two wrongs don't make a right"; saying that doesn't make sense, because the abortion isn't being undertaken to punish anybody.

    None of this addresses the principal arguments of my post, on whether or not victims of rape should have the right to an abortion, so that (if they become pregnant) the victimization of the woman is not compounded through being forced to go through pregnancy and supporting the child, and the massively significant effects that would have on her life.


    I'd love to see this answeed but I can only assume the pro life members here are opposed to abortion unde any circumstances?


  • #1426
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Original sin and guilt around sex, and misogyny. The Church taught people only too well.


  • #1427
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    It doesn't matter though

    Laws are normative. They don't cater to all conceivable scenarios.


  • #1428
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    28064212 wrote: »
    If a woman is a suicide risk, can she get an abortion in Ireland? No, she can't. It would be illegal. However, the law that makes it illegal is unconstitutional, and has been voted as such on two occasions by the electorate after a Supreme Court ruling. Where's your calls for democracy to be respected on that issue?


    If a woman wants to kill herself (crazy and all as that may seem to most of us) shouldn't we just let her do it ....pro choice like.

    instead of saying "OMG! don't do it, just kill your child instead!"


  • #1429
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    If a woman wants to kill herself (crazy and all as that may seem to most of us) shouldn't we just let her do it ....pro choice like.

    instead of saying "OMG! don't do it, just kill your child instead!"

    Eh, I doubt most pro-choice people would advocate removing someone's right to choose suicide. But you also completely failed to address the issue raised

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  • #1430
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    28064212 wrote: »
    Eh, I doubt most pro-choice people would advocate removing someone's right to choose suicide. But you also completely failed to address the issue raised

    You mean the issue of respecting democracy? Lisbon Treaty anyone? if at first you don't succeed try again?

    modern democracy is merely mob rule.


  • #1431
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    You mean the issue of respecting democracy? Lisbon Treaty anyone? if at first you don't succeed try again?

    modern democracy is merely mob rule.

    So what do you suggest instead ? Unless you have an alternative your statement is just empty rhetoric.

    How many abortion referenda did we have before we got the ''right'' answer ? If at first you don't succeed try (and try and try ) again.


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  • #1432
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    So what do you suggest instead ? Unless you have an alternative your statement is just empty rhetoric.

    How many abortion referenda did we have before we got the ''right'' answer ? If at first you don't succeed try (and try and try ) again.


    We don't need another referendum.. 2 was enough. What we need is more support for woman in society so that we remove any pressure on them to abort. IF we have support and services to help (child care, Job security) then we don't need abortion..

    Unless someone is saying we should have a USA/UK Style I feel like I want an abortion so I will get one..


  • #1433
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    marienbad wrote: »
    So what do you suggest instead ? Unless you have an alternative your statement is just empty rhetoric.

    How many abortion referenda did we have before we got the ''right'' answer ? If at first you don't succeed try (and try and try ) again.

    I suggest we educate people. Tell pregnant women to look further than their navel. Look right inside the womb and see what's there and why it's there. Then get a grip and man up so to speak.


  • #1434
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    I suggest we educate people. Tell pregnant women to look further than their navel. Look right inside the womb and see what's there and why it's there. Then get a grip and man up so to speak.

    Indeed, men need to man up and take half the responsibility for what was done. Until boys and girls grow up and realise sex is not a toy, we will continue to have these problems.

    A good clip round the ear wouldn't go amiss.


  • #1435
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    I suggest we educate people. Tell pregnant women to look further than their navel. Look right inside the womb and see what's there and why it's there. Then get a grip and man up so to speak.

    Are you all presuming to know how much or little a pregnant woman considers the contents of her womb? Unless you've ever been a pregnant woman who felt she had to cosider abortion then you probably are over reaching a bit there. Not that you're not entitled to, just saying...


  • #1436
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    Indeed, men need to man up and take half the responsibility for what was done. Until boys and girls grow up and realise sex is not a toy, we will continue to have these problems.

    A good clip round the ear wouldn't go amiss.

    That's the whole nub of the issue.. People don't want to take responsibility fort their acts.. Actions have consequences.


  • #1437
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    Indeed, men need to man up and take half the responsibility for what was done. Until boys and girls grow up and realise sex is not a toy, we will continue to have these problems.

    A good clip round the ear wouldn't go amiss.


    Very compassionate there!

    You know what, why not reopen the Magdalene laundries altogether, that'd solve the whole problem.


  • #1438
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    Are you all presuming to know how much or little a pregnant woman considers the contents of her womb? Unless you've ever been a pregnant woman who felt she had to cosider abortion then you probably are over reaching a bit there. Not that you're not entitled to, just saying...

    That's experientialist.

    The fact is, there are objective facts for every woman who is pregnant must acknowledge, which take absolute precedence over sentimentality.


  • #1439
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    That's experientialist.

    The fact is, there are objective facts for every woman who is pregnant must acknowledge, which take absolute precedence over sentimentality.


    Indeed. I wouldn't call an abortion a sentimental action.


  • #1440
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    Very compassionate there!

    You know what, why not reopen the Magdalene laundries altogether, that'd solve the whole problem.

    The fact of the matter is this: sex has been reduced to a recreational sport. But it isn't a sport and kids are not disposable. Until there's a shift in thinking, we shall continue to have a problem with girls and women getting pregnant and then having the baby killed off.

    Let's face it, this is the real issue.


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  • #1441
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is this: sex has been reduced to a recreational sport. But it isn't a sport and kids are not disposable. Until there's a shift in thinking, we shall continue to have a problem with girls and women getting pregnant and then having the baby killed off.

    Let's face it, this is the real issue.


    I agree in part.. I think that sex has become trivialised and the idea of healthy relationships has been cheapened.


  • #1442
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    We don't need another referendum.. 2 was enough
    Actually, four referendums were enough. In all of them the RCC/pro-life lost, a point you seem to have trouble understanding
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Why are you bringing Church into the argument. Church and state are separate. And the reason we don't have abortion in Ireland is because it was voted down.. Twice ... by the people of the republic.
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    its not denied on religious grounds.. Its denied on Democratic grounds.

    Accept the will of the people. who rejected it twice.
    In fact, you erroneously claimed the same a little over a month ago on this exact thread, again calling for the will of the people to be respected, and I told you then what actually happened.

    There have been 4 votes on abortion issues in the state. On every single occasion, the anti-abortion lobby lost.

    The "will of the people", a phrase you seem to like, has most definitely not been respected

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  • #1443
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    28064212 wrote: »
    Actually, four referendums were enough. In all of them the unborn baby lost, a point you seem to have trouble understanding

    I fixed you're post! ;)


  • #1444
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    28064212 wrote: »
    Actually, four referendums were enough. In all of them the RCC/pro-life lost, a point you seem to have trouble understanding


    In fact, you erroneously claimed the same a little over a month ago on this exact thread, again calling for the will of the people to be respected, and I told you then what actually happened.

    There have been 4 votes on abortion issues in the state. On every single occasion, the anti-abortion lobby lost.

    The "will of the people", a phrase you seem to like, has most definitely not been respected


    I wasn't really aware of this , would you mind linking me by p.m or here to somewhere I can read more about it, if you get time, please? I'd like to educate myself about it...


  • #1445
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    There's a bit more detail on my first rebuttal on this thread here. I also posted a bit about the government's failure to act here. Wikipedia has a list of all irish referendums, with links: to pages for each one [URL=" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Ireland#List_of_referendums "]here[/URL]. The relevant ones are 12, 13, 14 and 25.

    In 12 and 25, a yes vote meant removing the right to obtain an abortion using the grounds of suicide. In both, the yes side lost. The government had never introduced legislation allowing an abortion in those cases, something they are required to do, and have been since 1992. In 13 and 14, a yes vote meant a woman couldn't be stopped from travelling for an abortion, and couldn't be stopped from obtaining information on abortion. Both those referendums passed

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  • #1446
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Thanks, much appreciated!


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  • #1447
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    28064212 wrote: »
    In 12 and 25, a yes vote meant removing the right to obtain an abortion using the grounds of suicide. In both, the yes side lost. The government had never introduced legislation allowing an abortion in those cases, something they are required to do, and have been since 1992.

    And how do you expect legislation to be introduced? Who is a suicide risk? who determines this? Is it a case of a woman showing up and saying i will kill myself unless I get an abortion? The area is so grey.

    If you are saying that anyone who presents themselves saying they will take their own life if they don't get an abortion and this is the only justification for abortion then its abortion on demand..

    How "at risk" is the life of a Mother when she says she wants an abortion? Its a very subjective area.. Of the pregnant women who have taken their lives in Ireland (last being in Howth) there was no prior indication that the pregnancy was the underlying issue, or was there advance notice. Many times those going to take their lives don't give prior notice (unless they have already attempted)


    We already have the laws in place to protect the life of the mother.


  • #1448
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    And how do you expect legislation to be introduced? Who is a suicide risk? who determines this? Is it a case of a woman showing up and saying i will kill myself unless I get and abortion? The area is so grey.

    If you are saying that anyone who presents themselves saying they will take their own life if they don't get an abortion and this is the only justification for abortion then its abortion on demand..

    How "at risk" is the life of a Mother when she says she wants an abortion? Its a very subjective area.. Of the pregnant women who have taken their lives in Ireland (last being in Howth) there was no prior indication that the pregnancy was the underlying issue, or was there advance notice. Many times those going to take their lives don't give prior notice (unless they have already attempted)


    We already have the laws in place to protect the life of the mother.
    Unsurprisingly, you're doing exactly what you did the last time you claimed it was "democracy" that prevented abortion legislation: changing the subject and ignoring your calls from a few posts ago about respecting the "will of the people". The will of the people is that in a case where suicide presents a substantial risk to the life of the mother, an abortion should be available

    As for the rest of your post, there are already processes in place for determining suicide risks. Adapting those processes is a job for the medical profession. It is absolutely NOT the government's place to delay legislation against the will of the people

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  • #1449
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    28064212 wrote: »
    Unsurprisingly, you're doing exactly what you did the last time you claimed it was "democracy" that prevented abortion legislation: changing the subject and ignoring your calls from a few posts ago about respecting the "will of the people". The will of the people is that in a case where suicide presents a substantial risk to the life of the mother, an abortion should be available

    As for the rest of your post, there are already processes in place for determining suicide risks. Adapting those processes is a job for the medical profession. It is absolutely NOT the government's place to delay legislation against the will of the people

    There is already legislation to protect the mothers life. Are you saying since legislation has not been passed that there are woman dead because of the lack of it?

    I am using the argument of democracy to show the fact the majority of the Population don't want on demand abortion.

    But the reality is the life a Child should no depend on the decisions of anyone. Once a Child exists they should be respected. Respect for the actual existence of living human life should not be matter for democracy.. its should a fundamental human right.

    We are lucky we live in a country where the Rights of the Child and democracy agree.


  • #1450
    Damokc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭Damokc


    "Keep abortion out of Ireland" how about putting all yer time into stopping rapists?


  • #1451
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    Increasingly hysterical abortion on demand advocates are being routed on their favorite world stage, UN meetings;


    Abortion Proponents Admit Defeat at Rio Conference

    http://www.c-fam.org/fridayfax/volume-15/abortion-proponents-admit-defeat-at-rio-conference.html


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