Keep abortion out of Ireland

doctoremma wrote: »

I haven't read The Moral Landscape, have you?

Haven't had the pleasure yet. Unfortunately it's on an ever-growing list of books to read.

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Food for thought!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/cellznb.jpg/"]http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9295/cellznb.jpg

It is considered life, just like a dead person is considered to consist of living cells. The thing is in both cases the debate hinges on whether these arrangements of cells constitutes a living human person.

You don't seriously consider the bacteria at the bottom of your yoghurt the same as human life do you?

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Food for thought!

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9295/cellznb.jpg

If they found bacteria on Mars they would be saying the same thing. Should we outlaw Domestos?

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The Point he/she is making with the post is,, what if life were found outside the earth even if it were a cell... The headlines would be "Life found ......." The whole debate on abortion is that it cheapens human life. Pro abortion groups build their arguments for abortion on many arguments... one of them being that a Child at 13 weeks is not a person, not a human being and only demands respect if the mother says so.

And on we go with the subjective views of human life..

While if we found one cell on mars all the worlds scientists would be scrambling over themselves to get more data.

And it's quite possibly the weakest argument I've read in the abortion debate in a long while. A singe cell of life might just be the cell of a human bot fly and you don't want to know what that does to humans. Or it could be a cell of non DNA based life . . . it could be anything. Human life and life itself are wholly different things. Life that began on earth all those aeons ago was so chemically different to life as we it today. In fact life today wiped out most of it. The abortion debate is solely concerned with human life nothing else. If you are discuss life in the sense of any form of biological life then you could be talking about anything.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Jernal wrote: »

It is considered life, just like a dead person is considered to consist of living cells. The thing is in both cases the debate hinges on whether these arrangements of cells constitutes a living human person.

You don't seriously consider the bacteria at the bottom of your yoghurt the same as human life do you?

The Point he/she is making with the post is,, what if life were found outside the earth even if it were a cell... The headlines would be "Life found ......." The whole debate on abortion is that it cheapens human life. Pro abortion groups build their arguments for abortion on many arguments... one of them being that a Child at 13 weeks is not a person, not a human being and only demands respect if the mother says so.

And on we go with the subjective views of human life..

While if we found one cell on mars all the worlds scientists would be scrambling over themselves to get more data.

A cell on Mars would be big news because it's on Mars, not because it's a cell.

1ZRed wrote: »

I'm very interested in the whole church vs abortion debate. You're fighting a losing battle, same as gay marriage it will all eventually be granted in due time.
I thought Ireland was a secular state anyway? Shouldn't that mean that religious matters/beliefs have zero effect on the government's decision making?
I think it should be granted. If you're religious, you don't have to do it. Just because we are a predominantly catholic country does not mean that the choices of people who have apposing believes should be taken away from them because the are in the 'minority'.
Even if abortion was granted, I don't think anyone would take the act any less seriously as some religious people fear. If anything the women who go abroad to get an abortion get no therapy or any sort of professional help so it would benefit them better if that was available here.

I think you misunderstand secularism here. There's nothing about secularism that states a religious person's beliefs can't have influence government policy. They can and often do. The thing is those beliefs must be communicated in a language that is common to all humans. So, while Christians believe human life begins at conception they cannot just state this is so because the bible says so. Ok, obviously in this forum they can do that, but in the public domain they'd have to use arguments that thread common ground with others religious and non religious alike.

Also, in the eyes of some, people granting abortion is the equivalent of condoning murder. I know that's not how you take it, or for that matter how I take it, but if human life begins at conception then any process with terminates that development after conception could be construed as murder. So, expecting a religious person to be ok with it because they don't have to do it isn't really understanding their position at all.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Thank God that abortion in Ireland can't be put into law without the consent of the people.. Good old Irish Constitution.

Yes Church and State are separate. but the Question of abortion lies with the people, The same people who said they are 87% Catholic in the last census and the same people who twice rejected abortion in a Vote.


Strange how I saw Sinn Fein call for the vote on the nice treaty to be respected on the 1st referendum. Yet at 2 no votes on abortion they still want a 3 referendum on the issue.

Abortion is wrong, it was voted down twice.. VOX POPULI ...

I always find this majority mentality rather scary.

87% should have nothing to do with it. Either it's wrong or it's right. If 99% of the Irish people wanted disabled people killed that wouldn't make it right. Nor would if 99% of Irish people wanting abortion on demand available up to 1 year after childbirth. The numbers shouldn't count, either it is right, or it is wrong.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Thank God that abortion in Ireland can't be put into law without the consent of the people.. Good old Irish Constitution.

Wrong, the Constitution already provides the right to an abortion in certain circumstances

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Yes Church and State are separate. but the Question of abortion lies with the people, The same people who said they are 87% Catholic in the last census and the same people who twice rejected abortion in a Vote.

What are you smoking? There were three amendments proposed in 1992:

1. Remove the right to an abortion that already exists in the Constitution: Defeated, meaning the right to an abortion remained
2. Insert the right to freedom of travel: Passed, meaning no-one could be prevented from travelling to obtain an abortion
3. Insert the right to distribute information about services legally available in another state: Passed, meaning no-one can be prevented from distributing information about abortion

There was one amendment proposed in 2002:

1. Remove the right to an abortion that already exists in the Constitution: Defeated, meaning the right to an abortion remained

There have been 4 votes on abortion issues in the state. On every single occasion, the anti-abortion lobby lost

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Strange how I saw Sinn Fein call for the vote on the nice treaty to be respected on the 1st referendum. Yet at 2 no votes on abortion they still want a 3 referendum on the issue.

Abortion is wrong, it was voted down twice.. VOX POPULI ...

So now that you actually have a bit of knowledge of the history of this issue, I take it you'll be protesting the Government's lack of action on implementing the legislation for the right that the people have twice voted for, given your oh-so-democratic stance?

28064212 wrote: »

So now that you actually have a bit of knowledge of the history of this issue, I take it you'll be protesting the Government's lack of action on implementing the legislation for the right that the people have twice voted for, given your oh-so-democratic stance?

Its already enacted.... The problem is the "At risk" part... Are you saying that the 4000+ women who have an abortion in UK are at risk or that they just want the on demand solution to an inconvenient problem.

1ZRed wrote: »

How does the church view other circumstances such as conception via rape, or is this the only exception?

No exceptions!

Here's a girl who was a virgin, and at age 16 was dragged into a van on the way home and was raped by 3 men. She didn't kill her baby.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1043041/I-raped-left-pregnant-16--I-love-baby.html

qrrgprgua wrote: »

So does the Catholic Faith. Except we don't call it abortion as that is intentionally targeting the Child, but if the life a Mother is at risk because of the pregnancy (ectopic) then the pregnancy is ended to save her life.

Fortunately, the Catholic faith's position has no relevance to state law

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Its already enacted....

Wrong again. Can a woman who is suicidal get an abortion here? You know, the circumstances that your VOX POPULI twice voted for the right to an abortion in. No, there is no legislation allowing for it. Any doctor providing one would be guilty of an offence (under a law which is unconstitutional, but I can't see any doctor rushing to provide one only to be dragged to court)

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Are you saying that the 4000+ women who have an abortion in UK are at risk or that they just want the on demand solution to an inconvenient problem.

Where did I mention anything remotely relating to that?

Are you just going to ignore the fact that the anti-abortion lobby has lost every referendum, despite your bizarre claims to the contrary, and your criticism of Sinn Féin for "not listening"?

1ZRed wrote: »

That's disgusting. The church like to think that they are doing the moral thing by not permitting abortion but they indirectly punish girls in these kind of situations:mad: It makes no sense at all.

The poster is just showing the objective value of an innocent life. If a women who was raped and so traumatised did not search for help and resulted pregnant turned up at 7 months saying she wanted an abortion..? Might it not be better to help the women carry the child to term and give up to adoption?

Catholic faith holds that all life is sacred from conception. Circumstances of how a person was conceived does not determine their value or their lack of value.. All people are equal from conception.

1ZRed wrote: »

Stop going to extremes to justify your argument because I am not talking about getting an abortion that far along.
If a girl was raped and discovered she was pregnant I am sure she would seek to terminate it as soon as possible. I believe in abortion up until the second month, maybe the third.
That scenario you have just described actually could happen in this country for the simple fact that abortion is not available here. Hypothetically, if she didn't have to wait to terminate her pregnancy she wouldn't be waiting until she was a few months pregnant before ending it.
And what if this girl were to keep the child, not out of choice but by the fact that other options were not available and so she harbored resentment toward the child? This has been known to happen, so two lives could be ruined just for the sake of religious ethics.

you are amusing a lot. If a girl is raped there is morning after pill that can be bought over the counter. And Rape clinics will give it free.

Why to you assume that women would abort? Each women is different and will confront the situation differently.

I take it from your post that you would jump to abort after rape? Some women make see this as murdering an innocent life... However terrible the rape was.. Murdering the child is not going resolve much.