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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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    #1412
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    tatabubbly wrote: »
    but what you just said implies what i said above.. that its like treating women as walking incubators.

    At what second exactly does the embryo become a woman? when they are inside the womb or when they are old enough to make their own choices about their body and reproductive system?

    But what about the child who comes from an unwanted pregnancy? Its a hard truth to grow up knowing your not wanted. It's also difficult to grow up in a world if your born into poverty.
    Is there an answer to these questions as well?

    The church should not be involved when it comes to a health matter. If the catholic church doesn't agree with it, thats fine but they should not have the right to stop someone. Free will and all that jazz


    So the Circumstances of a pregnancy determine the value of the person? So only if the mother feels like she wants the child does that Child that exists have value?



    Again what's with "The Church". Which Church. There are 20,000+ Christian Church's against abortion.


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    #1413
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Blue_Seas wrote: »
    Actually I'm not even going to go through the whole rigmarole myself. "How to confuse a pro-lifer with one question".

    I liked the old women's response. Its wrong, its killing a person.


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    #1414
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    neemish wrote: »
    "Let he who is without sin......." it's not our place to judge.
    I do not agree with abortion, but as for judgement - that's for God, not me (or you)

    wE JUDGE ACTIONS ALL THE TIME - IT'S GOOD TO HAVE AN ICE CREAM, IT'S BAD TO EAT A WHOLE TUB. (Sorry, caps lock but I ain't typing that again!)

    We can and must judge/discern actions, both our own and others. See here.


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    #1415
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    The Rape and abortion argument is a tiny proportion of the abortions that happen. 99+% of abortions are not the result of Rape.

    You can turn the argument and ask.. Is it the child's fault he or she was conceived? Does who your father is or where you were born or what your mother thinks make you any more or less valuable as a human being?

    I am not going to comment on a womans state of mind after rape. If she aborts, who am I to judge her. But I can defend the principle that all people are equal, and all life is sacred.. No baby is more or less important. Everyone should be respected. Even the Child in the womb.
    It doesn't matter though, the number of abortions that are a undertaken due to rape; if a person agrees to the principal that a victim of rape should have the right to an abortion, then (due to the logic in my previous posts, surrounding proof of rape) the only practical solution is to allow abortion for all women.

    You (indirectly) support the idea that a victim of rape that becomes pregnant, should be forced to endure both pregnancy and that she should be forced to support that child, compounding the victimization of the woman and having an enormously significant effect on all areas of her life.

    Is this not massively unfair on that person?


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    #1416
    tatabubbly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭tatabubbly


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    So the Circumstances of a pregnancy determine the value of the person? So only if the mother feels like she wants the child does that Child that exists have value?



    Again what's with "The Church". Which Church. There are 20,000+ Christian Church's against abortion.

    yep, the circumstances matter. to say they don't is silly. What happens if you couldn't afford to keep a child? What happens if you had a child and got depressed and the kid carried around around that resentment all of their life?

    "the church" to me is the opposing churches here in ireland today.


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    #1417
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    If a woman's life is a risk in Ireland an abortion will be carried out. Its not called abortion as the intention is not to target the Child. We don't need to change anything.

    Many of these procedures happen in Ireland every year. Happened to my friend. Everything is done to save BOTH parties. But sadly sometimes the Child dies to save the mothers life.
    If a woman is a suicide risk, can she get an abortion in Ireland? No, she can't. It would be illegal. However, the law that makes it illegal is unconstitutional, and has been voted as such on two occasions by the electorate after a Supreme Court ruling. Where's your calls for democracy to be respected on that issue?

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    #1418
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    KyussBishop wrote: »

    You (indirectly) support the idea that a victim of rape that becomes pregnant, should be forced to endure both pregnancy and that she should be forced to support that child, compounding the victimization of the woman and having an enormously significant effect on all areas of her life.

    Is this not massively unfair on that person?

    Is it not also unfair that aside from the truama of having been raped, the victims (both mother and child) have to go through the added trauma of an abortion and possibly a lifelong guilt for killing an innocent child, which happens in a lot of cases -two wrongs don't make a right!


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    #1419
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Is it not also unfair that aside from the truama of having been raped, the victims (both mother and child) have to go through the added trauma of an abortion and possibly a lifelong guilt for killing an innocent child, which happens in a lot of cases -two wrongs don't make a right!

    Seems that some pro-lifers wish to create that sense of guilt for women who have had abortions by transposing their moral code onto those women.


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    #1420
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Is it not also unfair that aside from the truama of having been raped, the victims (both mother and child) have to go through the added trauma of an abortion and possibly a lifelong guilt for killing an innocent child, which happens in a lot of cases -two wrongs don't make a right!
    That's avoiding my argument though, and the logic doesn't make sense either because the woman wouldn't be forced to go through an abortion, she would only be given the option to choose it.

    Also, it's nothing to do with "two wrongs don't make a right"; saying that doesn't make sense, because the abortion isn't being undertaken to punish anybody.

    None of this addresses the principal arguments of my post, on whether or not victims of rape should have the right to an abortion, so that (if they become pregnant) the victimization of the woman is not compounded through being forced to go through pregnancy and supporting the child, and the massively significant effects that would have on her life.


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    #1421
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    That's avoiding my argument though, and the logic doesn't make sense either because the woman wouldn't be forced to go through an abortion, she would only be given the option to choose it.

    Also, it's nothing to do with "two wrongs don't make a right"; saying that doesn't make sense, because the abortion isn't being undertaken to punish anybody.

    None of this addresses the principal arguments of my post, on whether or not victims of rape should have the right to an abortion, so that (if they become pregnant) the victimization of the woman is not compounded through being forced to go through pregnancy and supporting the child, and the massively significant effects that would have on her life.


    What about adoption, there are many who would love to raise a family and cannot - I for one adopted for which I am forever grateful to the mother for making such a huge sacrifice!


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    #1422
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    Blue_Seas wrote: »
    Actually I'm not even going to go through the whole rigmarole myself. "How to confuse a pro-lifer with one question".


    I'd say there should be a prison sentence for this crime. I don't know why those folks had such a problem answering a question. They must be soft in the head.


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    #1423
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    tatabubbly wrote: »
    yep, the circumstances matter. to say they don't is silly. What happens if you couldn't afford to keep a child? What happens if you had a child and got depressed and the kid carried around around that resentment all of their life?

    "the church" to me is the opposing churches here in ireland today.

    Once you errode the principle of respect for human life above and beyond opinions and circumstances then you bring humanity down to a level of a dog..

    Even human being is unique and should be respected no matter where its born, or how rich its parents are or how they think.

    Our opinions should not detract from the value of each human being


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    #1424
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Every woman must decide whether she is willing to bring forth life. It is actually their decision and it can't happen without her consent. Your objection is to women controlling something they own. Their body. Attempting to superceed the female right to end a pregnancy is no better than forcibly restraining a woman until the foetus has reached the stage of development where it would be viable outside the womb, and cutting the child from her womb alive and yoking her to the child physically, then waving bye bye with the satisfaction that you have done the ''right'' thing. It's ludicrous.


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    #1425
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    That's avoiding my argument though, and the logic doesn't make sense either because the woman wouldn't be forced to go through an abortion, she would only be given the option to choose it.

    Also, it's nothing to do with "two wrongs don't make a right"; saying that doesn't make sense, because the abortion isn't being undertaken to punish anybody.

    None of this addresses the principal arguments of my post, on whether or not victims of rape should have the right to an abortion, so that (if they become pregnant) the victimization of the woman is not compounded through being forced to go through pregnancy and supporting the child, and the massively significant effects that would have on her life.


    I'd love to see this answeed but I can only assume the pro life members here are opposed to abortion unde any circumstances?


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    #1426
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Original sin and guilt around sex, and misogyny. The Church taught people only too well.


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    #1427
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    It doesn't matter though

    Laws are normative. They don't cater to all conceivable scenarios.


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    #1428
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    28064212 wrote: »
    If a woman is a suicide risk, can she get an abortion in Ireland? No, she can't. It would be illegal. However, the law that makes it illegal is unconstitutional, and has been voted as such on two occasions by the electorate after a Supreme Court ruling. Where's your calls for democracy to be respected on that issue?


    If a woman wants to kill herself (crazy and all as that may seem to most of us) shouldn't we just let her do it ....pro choice like.

    instead of saying "OMG! don't do it, just kill your child instead!"


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    #1429
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    If a woman wants to kill herself (crazy and all as that may seem to most of us) shouldn't we just let her do it ....pro choice like.

    instead of saying "OMG! don't do it, just kill your child instead!"

    Eh, I doubt most pro-choice people would advocate removing someone's right to choose suicide. But you also completely failed to address the issue raised

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    #1430
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    28064212 wrote: »
    Eh, I doubt most pro-choice people would advocate removing someone's right to choose suicide. But you also completely failed to address the issue raised

    You mean the issue of respecting democracy? Lisbon Treaty anyone? if at first you don't succeed try again?

    modern democracy is merely mob rule.


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    #1431
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    You mean the issue of respecting democracy? Lisbon Treaty anyone? if at first you don't succeed try again?

    modern democracy is merely mob rule.

    So what do you suggest instead ? Unless you have an alternative your statement is just empty rhetoric.

    How many abortion referenda did we have before we got the ''right'' answer ? If at first you don't succeed try (and try and try ) again.


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    #1432
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    So what do you suggest instead ? Unless you have an alternative your statement is just empty rhetoric.

    How many abortion referenda did we have before we got the ''right'' answer ? If at first you don't succeed try (and try and try ) again.


    We don't need another referendum.. 2 was enough. What we need is more support for woman in society so that we remove any pressure on them to abort. IF we have support and services to help (child care, Job security) then we don't need abortion..

    Unless someone is saying we should have a USA/UK Style I feel like I want an abortion so I will get one..


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    #1433
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    marienbad wrote: »
    So what do you suggest instead ? Unless you have an alternative your statement is just empty rhetoric.

    How many abortion referenda did we have before we got the ''right'' answer ? If at first you don't succeed try (and try and try ) again.

    I suggest we educate people. Tell pregnant women to look further than their navel. Look right inside the womb and see what's there and why it's there. Then get a grip and man up so to speak.


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    #1434
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    I suggest we educate people. Tell pregnant women to look further than their navel. Look right inside the womb and see what's there and why it's there. Then get a grip and man up so to speak.

    Indeed, men need to man up and take half the responsibility for what was done. Until boys and girls grow up and realise sex is not a toy, we will continue to have these problems.

    A good clip round the ear wouldn't go amiss.


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    #1435
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    I suggest we educate people. Tell pregnant women to look further than their navel. Look right inside the womb and see what's there and why it's there. Then get a grip and man up so to speak.

    Are you all presuming to know how much or little a pregnant woman considers the contents of her womb? Unless you've ever been a pregnant woman who felt she had to cosider abortion then you probably are over reaching a bit there. Not that you're not entitled to, just saying...


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    #1436
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    Indeed, men need to man up and take half the responsibility for what was done. Until boys and girls grow up and realise sex is not a toy, we will continue to have these problems.

    A good clip round the ear wouldn't go amiss.

    That's the whole nub of the issue.. People don't want to take responsibility fort their acts.. Actions have consequences.


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    #1437
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    Indeed, men need to man up and take half the responsibility for what was done. Until boys and girls grow up and realise sex is not a toy, we will continue to have these problems.

    A good clip round the ear wouldn't go amiss.


    Very compassionate there!

    You know what, why not reopen the Magdalene laundries altogether, that'd solve the whole problem.


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    #1438
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    Are you all presuming to know how much or little a pregnant woman considers the contents of her womb? Unless you've ever been a pregnant woman who felt she had to cosider abortion then you probably are over reaching a bit there. Not that you're not entitled to, just saying...

    That's experientialist.

    The fact is, there are objective facts for every woman who is pregnant must acknowledge, which take absolute precedence over sentimentality.


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    #1439
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    That's experientialist.

    The fact is, there are objective facts for every woman who is pregnant must acknowledge, which take absolute precedence over sentimentality.


    Indeed. I wouldn't call an abortion a sentimental action.


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    #1440
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    Very compassionate there!

    You know what, why not reopen the Magdalene laundries altogether, that'd solve the whole problem.

    The fact of the matter is this: sex has been reduced to a recreational sport. But it isn't a sport and kids are not disposable. Until there's a shift in thinking, we shall continue to have a problem with girls and women getting pregnant and then having the baby killed off.

    Let's face it, this is the real issue.


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    #1441
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is this: sex has been reduced to a recreational sport. But it isn't a sport and kids are not disposable. Until there's a shift in thinking, we shall continue to have a problem with girls and women getting pregnant and then having the baby killed off.

    Let's face it, this is the real issue.


    I agree in part.. I think that sex has become trivialised and the idea of healthy relationships has been cheapened.


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