Keep abortion out of Ireland

doctoremma

prinz wrote: »

I have spoken to a woman who was a recipient of this advice....Are you saying this lady is lying?....This woman lying?

No, I'm not. I read those stories - they are tragic and I have every sympathy for the women involved. I also realise that my previous statement - that nobody is told to have an abortion - represents the guidelines of the profession and the "ideal" position, not necessarily what happens at ground level. Having specifically put this question to one of the genetic counselors here, she was horrified that a patient could be told she should have an abortion, so thankfully it's not a universal problem.

However, the fault here lies with the care team, not with the legal provision of abortion. Nobody should ever be told to have an abortion, I think we both would agree on that? Counselors have strict decision-making frameworks to follow, which are intended to cover all possibilities and outcomes. For sure, one of those potential outcomes may be abortion but it should always be presented as an option, not an imperative.

This cases fall under the realm of medical negligence, not a black mark against the legal provision of abortion (in my opinion). The same is true for "botched" abortions.

prinz wrote: »

So? All the person involved has to do is claim an abortion to safeguard her 'psychological wellbeing'. Didn't you concede that this reasoning can be used to procure and abortion for any number of actual reasons?

Sex selection is illegal in the UK. Again, this is a problem with the medics who are willing to allow abortions to happen for these reasons. Maybe we need to stop trying to identify gender during ultrasounds. There are already moves from Europe to introduce this ruling (which, incidentally, would save a shed-load of cash) to prevent sex selection in member countries (or future member) where it could be a serious problem (Armenia, Azerbaijan etc).

prinz wrote: »

As above. People having abortions on grounds of disabilities, on grounds of gender etc.

Struggling to understand how this could be described as "ethnic cleansing".

prinz wrote: »

Who decides what exactly constitutes a 'severe foetal abnormality'?

The parents. The care team give the information on the nature of a congenital abnormality but only the parents can decided the "severity". Of course, what is considered "severe" for one family may be considered "not severe" for another, depending on circumstances.

prinz wrote: »

They have limits in the UK don't they? Why are dozens of babies delivered and left to die? What good was the limit to them?

Clearly, the 24-week limit might be considered too late by many (including me, as it happens). That's worth discussion.

prinz wrote: »

Anywho, going round in circles as these threads eventually tend to do. I'll stick to my position, you'll stick to yours.

Indeed, that may appear to be the case. I would never suggest that I don't have anything to learn from such debates. In my opinion, opinions are - and should be - continually updated (whether it's to be refined or to be consolidated, whatever).

prinz

doctoremma wrote: »

No, I'm not. I read those stories - they are tragic and I have every sympathy for the women involved. I also realise that my previous statement - that nobody is told to have an abortion - represents the guidelines of the profession and the "ideal" position, not necessarily what happens at ground level. Having specifically put this question to one of the genetic counselors here, she was horrified that a patient could be told she should have an abortion, so thankfully it's not a universal problem..

Thankfully, but it's still a problem. You know how when discussing the death penalty one of the main arguments against it is that an innocent person could be executed.. and that's true. Do you think that argument should be swept aside because it's not a universal problem? When lives are at stake personally I don't think having an ideal on one hand, and the actuality of what happens on the ground on the other is reason enough to support it.

doctoremma wrote: »

However, the fault here lies with the care team, not with the legal provision of abortion. Nobody should ever be told to have an abortion, I think we both would agree on that? Counselors have strict decision-making frameworks to follow, which are intended to cover all possibilities and outcomes. For sure, one of those potential outcomes may be abortion but it should always be presented as an option, not an imperative...

I agree.. but that's how it seems to have gone isn't it? You start off with a firm set of ideals... and you end up with something very different that is abused from all sides.

doctoremma wrote: »

Sex selection is illegal in the UK. Again, this is a problem with the medics who are willing to allow abortions to happen for these reasons....

..and yet it happens, and by your own admission there is no real way to stop it as long as the patient could be described as wanting an abortion for mental well-being. Those are cases where sex selection was made very clear for the purposes of investigative journalism. How many abortions are procured on the grounds of sex selection every year, where that reasoning isn't actually revealed to the provider?

doctoremma wrote: »

Struggling to understand how this could be described as "ethnic cleansing".....

I meant it in the broader sense of a society effectively cleansing itself of undesirables.

doctoremma wrote: »

The parents. The care team give the information on the nature of a congenital abnormality but only the parents can decided the "severity". Of course, what is considered "severe" for one family may be considered "not severe" for another, depending on circumstances."

As the first point. You bring in a set of what ostensibly should have been noble ideals, and you end up with what's essentially a free for all.

doctoremma wrote: »

Indeed, that may appear to be the case. I would never suggest that I don't have anything to learn from such debates. In my opinion, opinions are - and should be - continually updated (whether it's to be refined or to be consolidated, whatever).

Both sides have a lot to learn. However since coming down on the side of saying no to abortion on demand I have learned a lot, but nothing that would make me change my position. Continually updated, yes, changed no.

doctoremma

prinz wrote: »

Both sides have a lot to learn. However since coming down on the side of saying no to abortion on demand I have learned a lot, but nothing that would make me change my position. Continually updated, yes, changed no.

Ok, this particular part of the discussion has probably run it's course. It was good to chat about it.

Can I ask, what will you do if abortion is legalised in Ireland? Would you feel like moving? Or stay and fight it?

prinz

doctoremma wrote: »

Can I ask, what will you do if abortion is legalised in Ireland? Would you feel like moving? Or stay and fight it?

I'd stay and have to accept it as a reality, but I still wouldn't be happy about it or recommend it or feel like it suddenly solves all our problems. As far as fighting it, I would in terms of voicing my objections and raising concerns and I would never view it as an equally acceptable solution to unwanted pregnancies compared to others. What I would not do is put up and shut up just because it's legal, dissenting opinions are already under enough pressure to be silenced as it is. If you mean 'fight it' in terms of attacking doctors or staff, then no.

doctoremma

prinz wrote: »

I'd stay and have to accept it as a reality, but I still wouldn't be happy about it or recommend it or feel like it suddenly solves all our problems. As far as fighting it, I would in terms of voicing my objections and raising concerns and I would never view it as an equally acceptable solution to unwanted pregnancies compared to others. What I would not do is put up and shut up just because it's legal, dissenting opinions are already under enough pressure to be silenced as it is.

It's an interesting dilemma. I've always maintained that I would remove myself from the UK if it were to (among other things) reinstitute the death penalty - a kind of protest, if you like. However, that wouldn't help the situation in the UK at all, so it's a tough one.

prinz wrote: »

If you mean 'fight it' in terms of attacking doctors or staff, then no.

No, I didn't mean that at all - Ireland is not the USA. Although, now you mention it, would you perceive that to be a possibility from any extreme group?

prinz

doctoremma wrote: »

It's an interesting dilemma. I've always maintained that I would remove myself from the UK if it were to (among other things) reinstitute the death penalty - a kind of protest, if you like. However, that wouldn't help the situation in the UK at all, so it's a tough one.

That's always interesting. You're against the death penalty for convicted criminals (usually for the most serious and heinous crimes which they had a choice to commit) but you don't see an ethical or moral issue with the death penalty for a foetus that has done absolutely nothing wrong.

There are things I would leave Ireland over. Introducing abortion by referendum of all the people isn't one of them, I'd rather stay and try to get people to make different decisions in their lives to prevent the need for abortions to begin with. Anywho will be leaving voluntarily soon enough for personal reasons, ye can have the vote while I'm gone :pac: maybe it'd pass by 0.000000001%

doctoremma wrote: »

No, I didn't mean that at all - Ireland is not the USA. Although, now you mention it, would you perceive that to be a possibility from any extreme group?

In Ireland not really, but you never know there's always one unfortunately.

gimmebroadband

To put it bluntly, abortion it the extermination of the powerless by the powerful!

doctoremma

prinz wrote: »

That's always interesting. You're against the death penalty for convicted criminals (usually for the most serious and heinous crimes which they had a choice to commit) but you don't see an ethical or moral issue with the death penalty for a foetus that has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Well, I have several arguments against the death penalty and several arguments for being pro-choice. But, if forced to compare the two, it's clear that I place a far higher value on sentient life than I do over non-sentient life (which is why I'd save the chimp rather than the human embryos).

prinz wrote: »

Anywho will be leaving voluntarily soon enough for personal reasons, ye can have the vote while I'm gone :pac: maybe it'd pass by 0.000000001%.

I'll settle for the continuing debate and discussion with my Irish family...that's probably my way in

newmug

Is there going to be a vote on it? If so, any word on when?

eviltwin

Does a form of abortion not take place any time someone uses the morning after pill? Or in IVF clinics with unwanted embryos? Why no outrage about that? It is only women you want to control?

gimmebroadband

eviltwin wrote: »

Does a form of abortion not take place any time someone uses the morning after pill? Or in IVF clinics with unwanted embryos? Why no outrage about that? It is only women you want to control?

I was unable to have children and I purposely didn't go for IVF because embryos that are not used are either frozen or end up as experiments. I adopted instead!

I did wonder when I was younger why God let others who have no regard for the babies they kill be able to get pregnant and not me. He had other plans though, He wanted me to me a mother to children whose parent didn't want to kill their child, and I couldn't be happier.

eviltwin

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I was unable to have children and I purposely didn't go for IVF because embryos that are not used are either frozen or end up as experiments. I adopted instead!

But it does happen doesn't it? Why is it not covered under existing abortion legislation?

Also curious those of you who are pro life what is your opinion on women who have had abortions? Do you judge them?

gimmebroadband

eviltwin wrote: »

But it does happen doesn't it? Why is it not covered under existing abortion legislation?

Also curious those of you who are pro life what is your opinion on women who have had abortions? Do you judge them?

I don't for one, my niece had an abortion last year. While I'm saddened that she did it, I don't hold it against her. Love the sinner, hate the sin!

doctoremma

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I was unable to have children and I purposely didn't go for IVF because embryos that are not used are either frozen or some of the cells from the embryo are used for experiments if I explicitly consent to this being allowed.

Fixed that for you. I wouldn't want anyone to think that scientists are growing babies in Petri dishes, then doing experiments on them.

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I adopted instead!

Congratulations.

doctoremma

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I don't for one, my niece had an abortion last year. While I'm saddened that she did it, I don't hold it against her. Love the sinner, hate the sin!

Did you tell her that, to put it bluntly, abortion is the extermination of the powerless by the powerful?

prinz

eviltwin wrote: »

It is only women you want to control?

Lol. Yes, that's it exactly.

hattoncracker

prinz wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

It is only women you want to control?

Lol. Yes, that's it exactly.

Is there a law to stop the father of an unplanned pregnancy from immigrating? No.

Is child support taken out of their wages with their tax and given directly to the mother? No.

I've never heard of a man serving time for being a no-show father... The child suffers, always it's the child that suffers.. Wheres daddy? Why doesn't he want to talk to me? Why doesn't he love me? How did you and daddy meet?

Daddy left after you were born, because he wasn't ready to be a daddy.
Daddy raped me.


You can laugh all you want but if men were the gender who got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.

gimmebroadband

doctoremma wrote: »

Did you tell her that, to put it bluntly, abortion is the extermination of the powerless by the powerful?

She said herself that what she did was evil, her words! She even went as far as to get pregnant again (probably to make up for what she did), and she lost it! Ironic or what!! She already has a 3 year old!

hattoncracker

gimmebroadband wrote: »

doctoremma wrote: »

Did you tell her that, to put it bluntly, abortion is the extermination of the powerless by the powerful?

She said herself that what she did was evil, her words! She even went as far as to get pregnant again (probably to make up for what she did), and she lost it! Ironic or what!!

So she got what she deserved, yeah?

gimmebroadband

hattoncracker wrote: »

So she got what she deserved, yeah?

I don't agree, you are putting words in my mouth? I think she has a sad life to be honest, she comes from a broken home!

hattoncracker

gimmebroadband wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

So she got what she deserved, yeah?

I don't agree, you are putting words in my mouth? I think she has a sad life to be honest, she comes from a broken home!

That's not ironic, it's tragic, and all the more damaging because she may be thinking that she deserved it.

And if your definition of "broken home" is one where the parents separate, a lot of those children you want to save are going to be in just as bad, if not worse situations.

Delirium

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I don't agree, you are putting words in my mouth? I think she has a sad life to be honest, she comes from a broken home!

It was the phrasing of the post, gimme. I read it to mean what hatton thought, but just presumed that wasn't your intent.

eviltwin

Poor girl. If she is calling herself evil and trying to replace the baby she needs help and support and a lot of talking. I felt that way after my abortion. But I don't feel that way now. Life happens you know? You find yourself in a situation you don't expect and you make the best choice you can. Nothing evil about it. I came through the other side and feel very at peace about my choice. I have no regrets. Probably not what anyone here wants to hear but there you go.

doctoremma

hattoncracker wrote: »

if men were the gender who got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.

I can't disagree with this.

prinz

hattoncracker wrote: »

You can laugh all you want but if men were the gender who got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.

Can a man force a woman to have his unborn child aborted if the mother says no?

Can a man take legal action to prevent his unborn child from being aborted against his wishes?

Swings and roundabouts you see. You can't have it every which way. As for "it's always the child who suffers"... it certainly is with abortion anyway.

This isn't a male versus female issue and any attempt to portray it as such is childish and a sign of desperation. Your one step away from saying my vote/opinion shouldn't count because I'm male. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that kind of ignorance either.

You want my backup on child support to be taken from gross wages? You've got it. 100% with you on that.

eviltwin

Why the lol Prinz? I think its a valid question. There seems to be no interest in stopping the destruction of life in the clincs. Why not? Is it not the same thing? Why is it so much more of an issue when the 'baby' is in the womb? Hard not to see it as a gender control issue.

gimmebroadband

hattoncracker wrote: »

That's not ironic, it's tragic, and all the more damaging because she may be thinking that she deserved it.

And if your definition of "broken home" is one where the parents separate, a lot of those children you want to save are going to be in just as bad, if not worse situations.

There was drugs and alcohol involved, as well as affairs!

eviltwin

I hope your niece is getting love and support and no condemnation.

hattoncracker

prinz wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

You can laugh all you want but if men were the gender who got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.

Can a man force a woman to have his unborn child aborted if the mother says no?

Can a man take legal action to prevent his unborn child from being aborted against his wishes?

Swings and roundabouts you see. You can't have it every which way. As for "it's always the child who suffers"... it certainly is with abortion anyway.

This isn't a male versus female issue and any attempt to portray it as such is childish and a sign of desperation. Your one step away from saying my vote/opinion shouldn't count because I'm male. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that kind of ignorance either.

It is always the child who suffers, when they are born to parents that see them as a mistake, and have noqualms in reminding them.

There is an element of gender control in it.. Im not saying you shouldn't get a say when it's your gf or wife, it ideally should be a mutual decision, but when it's someone else's body, the choice should be there. I argue for a woman's choice to be able to choose motherhood and pregnancy,

men have a lot more choice in fatherhood. They can disappear. I've seen it happen to women I know. it's a lot harder for a woman to leave her womb behind. When a man walks into a room you have no way of telling if he's an expectant father. A woman cannot deny being pregnant unless she locks herself away. Its blindingly obvious.

hattoncracker

gimmebroadband wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

That's not ironic, it's tragic, and all the more damaging because she may be thinking that she deserved it.

And if your definition of "broken home" is one where the parents separate, a lot of those children you want to save are going to be in just as bad, if not worse situations.

There was drugs and alcohol involved, as well as affairs!

Exact same with my family... I know what it's like to grow up in that situation.. if it's still something that is affecting her life then she needs even more love and support.

If anyone ever knew about my abortion and decided it was because I came from a broken home I would actually fly at them though. I don't like it when people decide that a bad childhood is the reason I made my choices.