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Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

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    #1562
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    steve9859 wrote: »
    EURATS wrote: »
    Well said. Now it's up to Enda and crew to do the business, prove they were correct, and bring this country out of this SH1T.

    As for whether this will happen...hard call!!!


    One thing is for certain.....voting yes means that Enda no longer has the option of playing hardball with Europe in order to get concessions, like Greece is doing.

    So the question is this: Will Europe reward Ireland with lower rates, more generous haircuts on the bank debt (when the inevitable Europe wide haircuts happen) and just generally better treatment? Or will it now see Ireland as a country which no longer matters as it can longer be troublesome, (effectively having accepted everything that can be thrown at it) and therefore easy pickings for even stricter austerity and smaller haircuts.

    I think Enda will have nothing to do with that. Negotiating power IMO is now zero. The best hope we have is that we are somehow rewarded for prostrating ourselves


    Edit: Not that I think this treaty matters even a little bit, as events in Spain and Italy are clearly going to overwhelm Europe


    Unfortunately what you say is true. Enda has shown he is a wimp and clueless, and yes we are a tiny fish in a huge sea.


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    #1563
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    Irish turkeys vote for Christmas again.


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    #1564
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    donegal_road wrote: »
    once again, the people of Ireland have been herded like frightened cattle, and will now have to bear the yoke of European bank debt for generations. Fighting Irish my bollXX

    I still can't believe people are posting pathetic things like this, you really condescend those who don't vote the way you wanted them to, you belong somewhere like Syria.

    But as I said earlier, AH in no way accurately reflects general Irish society, they're much more intelligent than that.


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    #1565
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    I'll see your insolvency journal and raise you the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed reports, this is for May alone, a month I think where the live register remained stable ?
    From http://www.inou.ie/jobannouncements/

    Job Announcements May 2012
    Date Company Location No. of Jobs Additional Information
    30th May Qualvu Inc Dublin 15 Web based research jobs
    30th May Van Tibolli Beauty Corp Dublin 25 Customer support and marketing jobs
    30th May Aasonn Dublin 30 European Headquarters in Dublin
    30th May Red 5 Studios Cork 30 European Headquarters in Cork
    29th May IDG Connect Dublin 125 125 jobs for Dublin city centre
    28th May Amazon Dublin 100 Amazon to create 100 jobs
    28th May BuyersClub.ie Dublin 40 Shopping website creates 40 jobs
    28th May Action Point Limerick 50 50 new techology jobs
    25th May Seafood companies Countrywide 140 21 companies will generate new jobs
    24th May Intergeo Services Carlow 30 Enviromental firm to create 30 jobs
    23rd May Dawn Meats Waterford 65 Dawn meats to create 65 jobs
    23rd May Smartbox Dublin 70 Gift voucher company to create jobs
    21st May Jamie Oliver Restaurant Dublin 75 Jobs to be created in the Autumn
    17th May Merit Medical Galway 200 Medical devices firm to create 200 jobs
    16th May Rehab Countrywide 400 Rehab to create 400 jobs in Ireland
    15th May Laya Healthcare Cork 100 Over the next 3 years
    9th May CashIQ Dublin 45 45 new jobs for Dublin
    9th May ZDMI Limerick 35 ZDMI to create 35 jobs
    8th May Total Defense Dublin 100 100 Dublin jobs to be created
    4th May Cylon Dublin 50 The jobs are to be created over 4 years
    3rd May Penthouse Casino Dublin 50 jobs-penthouse@kairointernational.com
    3rd May SAP Dublin / Galway 250 Jobs to be created in Dublin / Galway
    2nd May Sentenial Maynooth 35 35 software jobs to be created
    2nd May Athlone Trade Centre Athlone Unknown Trade centre gets planning permission

    So that's in or around 2000 job's 'to be created' in a month. WOW!


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    #1566
    batistuta9
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    So that's in or around 2000 job's 'to be created' in a month. WOW!

    there's no one to fill the majority of them so..................


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    #1567
    AEDIC
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭AEDIC


    donegal_road wrote: »
    once again, the people of Ireland have been herded like frightened cattle, and will now have to bear the yoke of European bank debt for generations. Fighting Irish my bollXX


    Fights for the right to Democracy....complains about it when its demonstrated.... waddya know :rolleyes:


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    #1568
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    batistuta9 wrote: »
    there's no one to fill the majority of them so..................

    Na, I'm just wondering when we're going to see the 100,000 jobs or 100,000 less on the dole that enda promised.
    The unemployment rate is higher now than when FG/Lab took office.

    Austerity is working a treat.....


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    #1569
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    AEDIC wrote: »
    Fights for the right to Democracy....complains about it when its demonstrated.... waddya know :rolleyes:

    Fair play, it's a yes.
    I just hope we don't live to regret it.


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    #1570
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    steve9859 wrote: »
    One thing is for certain.....voting yes means that Enda no longer has the option of playing hardball with Europe in order to get concessions, like Greece is doing.

    Ya, feck we should have appointed neo-nazis to government too. I'm betting there was many Germans in 1933, praising the nazi party for them playing 'hardball'. Sorry for godwinning but it was rather necessary. The Greeks are unwilling to acknowledge the issues with their economy and how it's managed, why exactly should we respect their unhealthy mentality?


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    #1571
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    EURATS wrote: »
    Is interesting to see that the areas that voted YES ..are the same people who owe out their bollöx on mortgages etc and who overspent during the boom. Is obvious enough that they will need more money to keep it going. Hope the ESM fund actually materialises for them!!

    Almost every constituency voted yes.


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    #1572
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    steve9859 wrote: »
    like Greece is doing.

    Yes, we should all be like the Greeks, they have it good, damn foreigners.

    :rolleyes:


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    #1573
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    johngalway wrote: »
    Yes, we should all be like the Greeks, they have it good, damn foreigners.

    :rolleyes:

    Fecking Greeks!!!


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    #1574
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    EURATS wrote: »
    Unfortunately what you say is true. Enda has shown he is a wimp and clueless, and yes we are a tiny fish in a huge sea.

    This more spoke from the FF/FG apologist. I said FG would drive the get-away car for FF and that's what they are doing. Using words like wimp, stupid, etc are an insult to Joe public. These politicians are well educated capable people who have chosen to destroy this country.


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    #1575
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    johngalway wrote: »
    Yes, we should all be like the Greeks, they have it good, damn foreigners.

    :rolleyes:

    wow...talk about selective quoting!!! :rolleyes:


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    #1576
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    squod wrote: »
    EURATS wrote: »
    Unfortunately what you say is true. Enda has shown he is a wimp and clueless, and yes we are a tiny fish in a huge sea.

    This more spoke from the FF/FG apologist. I said FG would drive the get-away car for FF and that's what they are doing. Using words like wimp, stupid, etc are an insult to Joe public. These politicians are well educated capable people who have chosen to destroy this country.


    I didn't refer to him as stupid,but clueless. Same thing to a degree I suppose.

    And yes. They are driving the getaway car. It's a sign that joe public are fond of eating sh1t!!
    Hope it doesn't cause too much indigestion when the effects of this vote come to fruition!!!


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    #1577
    DB10
    Site Banned Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭DB10


    People who voted yes I've talked to were afraid there would be no money in ATMs.

    Says it all about this treaty.


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    #1578
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Na, I'm just wondering when we're going to see the 100,000 jobs or 100,000 less on the dole that enda promised.
    The unemployment rate is higher now than when FG/Lab took office.

    Austerity is working a treat.....



    Austerity? There hasn't even been a cut to social welfare since they've been in power yet.


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    #1579
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    DB10 wrote: »
    People who voted yes I've talked to were afraid there would be no money in ATMs.

    Says it all about this treaty.

    Says more about the people you know than the treaty itself, you need to widen your social circle.


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    #1580
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    Sam Vimes had a good post about the no campaign for Lisbon. All the stuff they said would happen:
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Firstly, sorry if this has been done before. I just found an old file on my computer from the time of the last Lison treaty where I'd listed some of the lies that were told by the no campaign. It had plain old lies like the one about the EU having taken €200 billion worth of fish from Irish waters but the ones I'm interested in here are things that they said would happen if we voted yes, i.e. they were saying that voting yes would allow something to happen where voting no would prevent it.

    This is the list:
    1. The minimum wage would be reduced to €1.84
    2. Ireland would be forced to engage in military action in something like a terrorist attack
    3. We would lose our neutrality
    4. It would create a European superstate
    5. Abortion would be made legal
    6. Gay marriage would be made legal
    7. Euthanasia would be made legal
    8. The death penalty would be made legal
    9. The guarantees were not legally binding and would be renaged on
    10. Michael O'Leary campaigned for the yes side in exchange for being allowed to buy Aer Lingus
    11. During the canmpaign polls were rigged to make it look like the yes side were ahead
    12. Turkey would be allowed to join the EU
    13. The treaty made EU law superior to Irish law (it already was and has been since 1973)
    14. We would lose the right to referendums
    15. Our constitution would be null and void
    16. Healthcare and education would be privatised
    17. We would be forced to increase military spending
    18. The charter of human rights would allow the EU to take the homes, assets and children of people with mild intellectual disabilities and alcoholics
    19. We would lose our veto in all areas
    20. A new EU army would be created and which would conscript Irish people
    21. Tony Blair would become the EU president


    Now that two years have passed and none of those things have happened I think we can all agree they were lies. So that's a list of "bad" things that the no campaign said would happen that didn't. What I'm wondering is: what "bad" things that the no campaign said would happen actually did? I can't think of anything to be honest.

    Now bear in mind I'm not looking for a list of "bad" things that have happened since 2009. I'm looking for things that happened and that were allowed to happen as a direct result of a clause in the Lisbon treaty. For example, the Irish government reduced the minimum wage a while ago but that was their decision to make. The reduction of the minimum wage had nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty so mentioning that would just be wasting everyone's time. Anther example would be the pressure from Sarkosy a few months ago about our corporation tax. That is actually a prime example of proof that the claim about our losing the right to control our corporation tax was a lie. He tried to put pressure on Ireland and force us to change the rate in exchange for a cut in the bailout rate but because we still have the veto that the no campaign said we would lose we could and did tell him to f*ck off.

    Before you post please ensure that you can answer yes to both of these questions:
    1. Did the thing that I am about to post happen as a direct result of a clause in the Lisbon treaty?
    2. Can I (and do I intend to) quote the clause that allowed this thing to happen and explain exactly how it allowed it to happen?

    Any post that makes a claim that isn't backed up by a reference to the treaty (or at least a reference that makes reference to the treaty) will be immediately asked to provide a reference so please just save everyone the time by providing it to begin with

    The no campaign was similar this time. We all know political parties lie, but the bullshíte from the no people is a different league. It's the same from the no people now. The world is going to end!
    When Joe Higgins said this has been one of the most shameful campaigns, with fear as a major tool, I thought he was talking about the no campaign.


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    #1581
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    I still can't believe people are posting pathetic things like this, you really condescend those who don't vote the way you wanted them to, you belong somewhere like Syria.

    But as I said earlier, AH in no way accurately reflects general Irish society, they're much more intelligent than that.

    well if you think that its ok that the people of Ireland should stand idly by and shoulder the enormous burden of debt lumped upon us by French and German banks for years to come, then there is little I can say. We are where we are. By the way, how do you mean Syria?


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    #1582
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    AEDIC wrote: »
    Fights for the right to Democracy....complains about it when its demonstrated.... waddya know :rolleyes:

    so you think that it was democratic of our government to threaten and scare people into voting the way the government wanted them to vote?? :rolleyes:


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    #1583
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    donegal_road wrote: »
    well if you think that its ok that the people of Ireland should stand idly by and shoulder the enormous burden of debt lumped upon us by French and German banks for years to come, then there is little I can say. We are where we are. By the way, how do you mean Syria?


    How would have voting No changed that?


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    #1584
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    donegal_road wrote: »
    well if you think that its ok that the people of Ireland should stand idly by and shoulder the enormous burden of debt lumped upon us by French and German banks for years to come, then there is little I can say. We are where we are. By the way, how do you mean Syria?

    Voting yes or no had nothing to do with the bank debt.

    We may or may not get a deal yet on that given the Spanish banks are in trouble and if they are rescued by Europe rather than the Spanish government then there would be a case for the same model applying to Ireland retrospectively.


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    #1585
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    donegal_road wrote: »
    so you think that it was democratic of our government to threaten and scare people into voting the way the government wanted them to vote?? :rolleyes:

    Is that why they called it the austerity treaty, sorry my mistake that was the no side.


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    #1586
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    donegal_road wrote: »
    so you think that it was democratic of our government to threaten and scare people into voting the way the government wanted them to vote?? :rolleyes:

    yeah, the government goon squads were just roaming hither and yon, beating up people that intended to vote no.

    T'was terrible altogether.


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    #1587
    flyswatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭flyswatter


    donegal_road wrote: »
    AEDIC wrote: »
    Fights for the right to Democracy....complains about it when its demonstrated.... waddya know :rolleyes:

    so you think that it was democratic of our government to threaten and scare people into voting the way the government wanted them to vote?? :rolleyes:
    Didn't threaten anyone. Plenty of scaremongering done by the no side, just look at some of the laughable no posters over in the politics forum.


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    #1588
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    Min wrote: »
    Is that why they called it the austerity treaty, sorry my mistake that was the no side.

    when the ESM treaty is passed in the next couple of weeks, our first payment to the ESM will be in July, and will be for €254 million, and again in October for the same amount. We have to pay €11 billion towards the ESM now that we have signed up for it... this is in on-top of our bank debt... it is akin to a patient of life support being asked to donate blood


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    #1589
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    donegal_road wrote: »
    well if you think that its ok that the people of Ireland should stand idly by and shoulder the enormous burden of debt lumped upon us by French and German banks for years to come, then there is little I can say. We are where we are. By the way, how do you mean Syria?

    It might be a lapse in my memory, but didn't Cowen and Lenihan come up with that stupid blanket banking guarantee all by themselves?
    Didn't the governments of the UK, Germany and France voice concern and warned them to reconsider this step?

    I do find it highly fascinating how our own elected government acted the fools, yet droves of Irish people blame the EU for it now. Fascinating, and somehow worrying.


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    #1590
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    Shenshen wrote: »
    It might be a lapse in my memory, but didn't Cowen and Lenihan come up with that stupid blanket banking guarantee all by themselves?
    Didn't the governments of the UK, Germany and France voice concern and warned them to reconsider this step?

    I do find it highly fascinating how our own elected government acted the fools, yet droves of Irish people blame the EU for it now. Fascinating, and somehow worrying.

    Greece played hard-ball and got a write down of debt.. all we do in this country is comply, comply and comply some more... thats all I was saying in my first post


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    #1591
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    donegal_road wrote: »
    Greece played hard-ball and got a write down of debt.. all we do in this country is comply, comply and comply some more... thats all I was saying in my first post

    Oh we like to ****e on about being rebellious and all that crap, but the irish have always been a pretty timid, conservative lot


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