M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Tragedy

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

So we're agreed then. You met one posters whine with a whine of your own.

Glad we got this sorted.

Stating facts in response to a statement claiming untrue things isn't whining.

So we're agreed then, you were wrong and refuse to admit.
Glad we got this sorted then.

It's kinda amusing how silly your argument is. A poster complains that Cork gets worse treatment than Dublin, I show examples of it getting poor treatment(including an example extremely similar to the main complaint of his) to show the treatment is the same, and you reply "Are as applicable to the Cork metropolitan area as they are to the GDA."

Yeah, that was kind of my point genius

Irish and Proud

I seems like another N20 statistic sadly...

R.I.P.



PS. It's already posted on the previous page.

antoobrien

Tragedy wrote: »

I equated the road he listed (N20) with the N81. I also stated that the roads in Dublin City itself are in generally not great repair

I don't know about the N20 but the roads I use within north Dublin city & county are a damned lot better than many of the roads in Galway county & Mayo. We can all pick out one or two bits we don't like (N81 being a prime example of this), but the vast majority of Dublin Roads are in a better state of repair than roads across most of the country.

You're also forgetting that Co Cork has several thousand more km of roadway than Dublin has - which dilutes the maintenance budget required.

A getting off of the high horse is required form ALL concerned.

L1011

The N81 is in a very odd situation, IIRC its Kildare who are responsible for planning/designing the upgrade but the road mostly runs through Dublin and Wicklow along the upgrade path.

cjpm

Tragedy wrote: »

No there isn't.

People who use the road and others who have lost loved ones might see it differently. The politicians haven't done much canvassing for the route in the past 30 years.

Tragedy wrote: »

Yes it would.
.

I doubt steel poles angled towards passing traffic within 500mm of the overtaking lane would be left there on a national route in the Greater Dublin area. Could you imagine if the tyre of a bus caught it?? It was you that started on about potholes in Dublin.

Tragedy wrote: »

The M7 easily surpasses the AADT of the N20 well past Portlaoise and is most likely above it after Nenagh. So the quietest part of the quietest section of the M7 is only a little quieter than the busiest parts of the N20. Hardly comparable.
All I can find about the M6 is that
A)The final section was 56km
and
B)The total cost was €427m for 194km
The latest figures I can find for the M20 suggest ~€1Billion

The M3 was a single scheme and the AADT is initially far higher than the N20 but drops quickly before the second toll. Combined old N3+M3 AADT would again, be higher than the N20 but I'm guessing paying two tolls on a short route is the reason traffic is halved between old+new road(as the old N7 shows no similar distribution).

N8 Cashel to Mitchelstown and Cashel to Cullahill are the quietest sections of the M8 and to compare the two(~80km and 880m cost) with the proposed M20 is a bit...well...silly. One is finishing the link between the two sections of Motorway that connect the Greater Dublin Area (~1.8m population) with the Greater Cork Area (~520k population) and the other is building a whole new connection between Cork+Limerick.

Can't find any information on price/length for the various N11/M11 contracts but again AADT suggests that aside from Arklow/Gorey, AADT is higher than N20.

M9 was 28km, 18.5km, 12km, 24km in it's various schemes.

The €1 billion price tag for the M20 is rubbish. Land values were crazy when the route was priced. If it had been CPO'd 15 years ago it would have been a vastly different price. In addition the engineering involved in the scheme is relatively straightforward, no bottomless bogs etc.

I am aware that the AADT's aren't as high as the other schemes, and this is partly due to the standard of the route, have you driven between Mallow and Croom? A lot of people use alternative routes just to avoid the N20!

It would be benificial to the long term growth of the entire country to have a direct link between the 2nd and 3rd cities, something you refer to as silly. It would also link Cork to Galway.

Tragedy wrote: »

Also, there were nowhere near 20 schemes built during the Celtic Tiger.

M50 Upgrade 1
M50 Upgrade 2
N7 Kildare Bypass (Could potentially be considered pre Celtic Tiger)
M7/M8
M7 Castletown to Nenagh
N7 Nenagh to Limerick
M7 Limerick South Ring
M8 Cullahill to Cashel
M8 Cashel to Mitchelstown
M8 Mitchelstown Bypass
M8 Fermoy Bypass
N6 Galway to Ballinsloe
N6 Ballinsloe to Athlone
4 No N9 Schemes

That's 17 schemes of varying scale in 5 routes already, there are plenty more....

Tragedy wrote: »

You have no idea what caused her accident but you're categorically stating that it can't have been a factor that newspapers mentioned.

I never said I did, I just pointed out that early reports mentioned extreme weather, when in fact it was dry, slight breeze and the road was damp.

GEM_13

I don't think there is much point in speculating about this mornings accident without knowing the circumstances surrounding the crash.

I travel the Cork-Mallow section of the road every day.The road is a nightmare at the best of times.As roads go in this country,you could argue that it could do with a bit more attention in terms of upkeep.For a road that links two major cities,it is poorly maintained.

The layout of the road is obviously a big problem.When people are stuck behind a line of traffic and can't go anywhere,it gets frustrating-at least for some.People can look at the road and say it's flawed-poorly designed and poorly maintained -which it is.The thing is,people need to start looking at their own driving habits and not always look to blame the roads for accidents.

There are a lot of drivers on that road that just do not think enough about the consequences their driving may have for themselves and others(probably the same on a every road).I'm sure that people who travel the road will know what i mean.From drivers cutting across other drivers at the end of the over-taking sections to driving too close to the car in front,it's a major accident waiting to happen.

Then again,if there were two lanes to drive in,some of this behaviour may not be so prevalent.

Edthehead

I dont know about the state of the roads in Dublin but for anyone who passes through Buttevant you know what I'm on about when I say the road surface is absolutely disgraceful, yes its on the N20, the main route between the Republic's second and third largest cities but it resembles an off road testing ground for 4x4 vehicles. There's no potholes, it's just sinking into the trenches that were dug for the new sewerage scheme three years ago. Due to the 50km speed limit cars are able to zig zag their way down the street, if this was on a part of the road with the 100km limit there would be carnage. The uneven surface must surely effect the stopping distances of the 12000 vehicles that use it each day, are they going to wait until one of our children or elderly get hit by a vehicle before they decide to resurface it? We have started a petition on www.buttevant.ie please take a few moments to sign it.
The girl (RIP) who died this morning, died on a stretch of road that has a white line separating opposing lanes of traffic, head on crashes will happen on these stretches regardless of weather. At least with the 2+1 the chance of a head on crash is lessened. That girl would have had a nasty accident this morning but would probably be still alive if it had happened on a 2+1 stretch.

antoobrien

Tragedy wrote: »

All I can find about the M6 is that
A)The final section was 56km
and
B)The total cost was €427m for 194km
The latest figures I can find for the M20 suggest ~€1Billion

Ignore those prices as they'd include the cost of land at boom prices. A good example of this is the proposed GCOB, which was quoted as costing up to €350m during the boom (depending on who you were listening to). The latest estimates are in the region of €120m-€150m.

The construction of the proposed M17/18 (about 60km) - expected to cost €300m or so - so a scheme of about 80km like the M20 would be in the region of €400m.

littlemac1980

What a tragedy. I feel so sorry for that poor girl's (RIP) family.

My recollection is that this accident occurred in exactly the same place as a fatality last year.

I travel Limerick to Mallow every day. The entire Cork to Limerick road isn't fit for Horses. It's a Joke.

I can recall at least 3 fatalities between Charleville and Rourke's Cross last year, 1 of which was a new born baby (RIP).

Millions are spent every year by the Government on media campaigns and Television advertising, supposedly aimed at reducing road deaths. I wonder what Gay Byrne's salary for the RSA was?

If the Government gave serious consideration to reducing road deaths, they take the obvious decisions of providing a system of roads which are suitable to the level of traffic on them.

Focusing campaigns on safer driving and using your indicators correctly are all well and good but are of limited benefit in areas where the main cause of road deaths are the roads themselves.

I have no doubt but that each of the deaths I've mentioned and many more would not have occurred if the Limerick to Cork road was fit for purpose.

Anyone suggesting that we don't have all the facts etc. etc. Get off the Luas, drive the N20 and then make a comment after you've all the facts.

Amtmann

I'm rather worried about that accident as I'm good friends with a girl that age who travels the N20 around then and I've been unable to reach her all day.

charlemont

Amtmann wrote: »

I'm rather worried about that accident as I'm good friends with a girl that age who travels the N20 around then and I've been unable to reach her all day.

Hopefully she will be ok. First post I ever put down was about that road, Its lethal, May the young woman rest in peace.

GEM_13

Hope it's not your friend.Try ringing a relative if you have a number for one.

CerebralCortex

littlemac1980 wrote: »

What a tragedy. I feel so sorry for that poor girl's (RIP) family.

My recollection is that this accident occurred in exactly the same place as a fatality last year.

I travel Limerick to Mallow every day. The entire Cork to Limerick road isn't fit for Horses. It's a Joke.

I can recall at least 3 fatalities between Charleville and Rourke's Cross last year, 1 of which was a new born baby (RIP).

Millions are spent every year by the Government on media campaigns and Television advertising, supposedly aimed at reducing road deaths. I wonder what Gay Byrne's salary for the RSA was?

If the Government gave serious consideration to reducing road deaths, they take the obvious decisions of providing a system of roads which are suitable to the level of traffic on them.

Focusing campaigns on safer driving and using your indicators correctly are all well and good but are of limited benefit in areas where the main cause of road deaths are the roads themselves.

I have no doubt but that each of the deaths I've mentioned and many more would not have occurred if the Limerick to Cork road was fit for purpose.

Anyone suggesting that we don't have all the facts etc. etc. Get off the Luas, drive the N20 and then make a comment after you've all the facts.

Couldn't agree more! Having driven the N20 numerous times, I can confidently say it's abhorrent.

AugustusMinimus

Only really know the Cork to Mallow stretch.

I find the 2+1 sections to be quite dangerous most of the time. People gunning it try to make it past slower drivers just when the lane ends. People staying in the overtaking lane etc. Very chaotic.

Irish and Proud

Amtmann wrote: »

I'm rather worried about that accident as I'm good friends with a girl that age who travels the N20 around then and I've been unable to reach her all day.

I hope it's not your friend Amtmann. Back in 1996 when the road was fairly new, my Dad and I were lucky enough not to be N20 statistics when we had a folding caravan on tow. IIRC this moron was overtaking against oncoming traffic when he had to brake to get back in behind us. According to my Mam and Granny (who were in another car behind), he nearly hit the caravan and God knows what would have happened then. I had thoughts of us being catapulted into oncoming traffic upon being told - not good.

Thankfully, nothing happened which I hope will be the same for your friend.

Regards,

Irish and Proud

corktina

Notwithstanding I have a vested interest in the M20 as a user of this road, the actual accident site is in fact in pretty good shape, having been extensively resurfaced last year.In fact the whole section south of Rathduff is pretty acceptable (it does have two gosafe van locations however, so there is a problem, probably with driving standards imo)

The section north of Rathduff is marred by the flawed 2+1 section but again is acceptable as far as Mallow , followed by the poor section as far as north of Buttevant which gives the N20 it's bad name, after which it's fairly good all the way to Croom where it improves radically.

thus, I disagree with comments to the effect of blaming the Govt or the RSA.

My sympathies to the girls family, RIP

cjpm

There was another accident today in the middle of the 2 + 1 section at about 4:30 this evening. At the junction for the Munster Driving Campus, there is no wire rope at this location for about 100m due to 3 junctions onto the road.

2 Cars involved, the occupants seemed ok thank god.

JupiterKid

The N20 is a mixed bag of a road but the section from north of Mallow to north of Charleville is a complete disgrace. It's a goat track with no bypasses to speak of either. The section around Buttevant would be an embarrassment for a Third World country.

The M20 needs to be prioritised as the N20 is not fit for purpose along much, if not most, of its length.

RIP to the young woman killed in the accident earlier today.

cjpm

corktina wrote: »

Notwithstanding I have a vested interest in the M20 as a user of this road, the actual accident site is in fact in pretty good shape, having been extensively resurfaced last year.In fact the whole section south of Rathduff is pretty acceptable (it does have two gosafe van locations however, so there is a problem, probably with driving standards imo)

The section north of Rathduff is marred by the flawed 2+1 section but again is acceptable as far as Mallow , followed by the poor section as far as north of Buttevant which gives the N20 it's bad name, after which it's fairly good all the way to Croom where it improves radically.

thus, I disagree with comments to the effect of blaming the Govt or the RSA.

My sympathies to the girls family, RIP

Jeez the section between Buttevent and Croom is pretty bad too. The infamous Rourkes Cross is in this section also.

corktina

it's no worse than many other N roads and better than most on that section.

Hogzy

corktina wrote: »

it's no worse than many other N roads and better than most on that section.

The amount of deaths and accidents on the road would suggest otherwise

mydiscworld

Just had a look at the RSA's 2010 Annual Report.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/About%20Us/RSA%20AR2010%20english.pdf

Ireland was 6th of the 27 EU countries for road safety in 2010, based on road deaths per million populations.

2011 deaths was lower again in Ireland (and lower still in 2012 to date)

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=138

But we knew this already.

I'd love RSA or the Gardaí to produce the road deaths per Road name, inc. all Mortorways, Regional roads, etc.

This way the public can see the deadliest roads and stretches within those roads and seek them to be rectified as a matter of urgency.

JupiterKid

There is a section of the N20 - between Charleville and Buttevant, that was widened and realigned back in the 70s or 80s and yet it has seen a lot of serious accidents IIRC.

I'm in no doubt that the hitherto "improved" N roads with hard shoulders have had many fatal head-on collisions because of platooning of cars which can cause dangerous overtaking.

Most of the sections of road like this on the inter-urban routes between Dublin and the other Irish cities have now been replaced by the motorways and have since seen sharp drops in fatal accidents.

I've no doubt that the motorways have saved countless lives and this would be the case for the N20 too if and when the M20 gets built.

L1011

WS2 roads are significantly more dangerous than their standard and often profile/sightlines would suggest they should be, entirely due to head-on collisions from overtaking.

Traffic pulling in to what they assume is going to be an empty hard shoulder to allow someone to overtake is another risk. Something else being stopped in the hard shoulder, or cyclists/walkers there around the corner can lead to fairly serious crashes also.

There's also a level of "runway affect" where drivers speed up without realising due to a very, very wide, straight road. Have seen cars doing what I'd guess is about 160km/h on some relatively empty straight stretches like the old Moone Bypass due to that. UK tries to avoid having grade separated junctions on WS2 roads because they feel it makes this worse.

Thankfully the NRA doesn't propose building large WS2 projects any more and has T2DC (2+2) instead.

littlemac1980

corktina wrote: »

Notwithstanding I have a vested interest in the M20 as a user of this road, the actual accident site is in fact in pretty good shape, having been extensively resurfaced last year.In fact the whole section south of Rathduff is pretty acceptable (it does have two gosafe van locations however, so there is a problem, probably with driving standards imo)

The section north of Rathduff is marred by the flawed 2+1 section but again is acceptable as far as Mallow , followed by the poor section as far as north of Buttevant which gives the N20 it's bad name, after which it's fairly good all the way to Croom where it improves radically.

thus, I disagree with comments to the effect of blaming the Govt or the RSA.

My sympathies to the girls family, RIP

Are you serious???!!!!

10 miles at most of that 40+ miles of national road has a hard shoulder.

And how does suggesting that it's no different to many other National Roads prove that the Government and RSA aren't to blame?

If anything that comment suggests otherwise.

corktina

I don't think you know the road. There is no hard shoulder through Ballybeg and from Charleville to Croom but the more or less all the rest of the road has one

Edthehead

Blackpool in Cork to where you join the M20 at Patrickswell is approx 82km.
About 28km of that road has no hard shoulder, but I think the roads with no hard shoulder are probably safer in heavy traffic than the roads that have one.

If your in heavy traffic on a road with a hard shoulder and you have some plonker in front of you hogging the white line with enough space for two lorries to pass on the inside side by side, it causes frustration.
If you are in the same situation on a road with no hard shoulder I think most people will just accept the situation and wait.

I believe the stretches with a hard shoulder are just as or even more dangerous than the stretches without, I can count at least 10 fatalities between the stretch just outside Buttevant where the hard shoulder starts and Charleville, in nearly all cases the accidents happened on slight corners.

Its always baffled me why would you build such a wide road and then push the traffic out into the middle so opposing traffic are travelling within a few feet of each other. Why didn't they make the hard shoulder half or three quarters as wide and added that space between the traffic in the middle?
I know people will say, it would then be used as an overtaking lane, but how is that any different than someone using the opposite side of the road to overtake?

littlemac1980

corktina wrote: »

I don't think you know the road. There is no hard shoulder through Ballybeg and from Charleville to Croom but the more or less all the rest of the road has one

Read the rest of my posts.

corktina

my point being that the place where the tragic accident happened this week is perfectly safe and therefore this accident is more likely to have been driver error or mechanical failure, thus you can hardly blame the Authorities for it.The N20 as a whole , with the exception of the Ballybeg/ Buttevant bit is better than many N roads. Take a look at the N72/3!

Edthehead

You cant compare the N72/73 with the N20, 1000 vehicles an hour pass through Buttevant on the N20, the N72/73 would be a fraction of that. A road with grass down the middle of it would be deemed suitable if only a few cars a day used it. I would argue that the good stretches of the N20 are probably more dangerous than the bad stretches of the N73 due to traffic volume.