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RDP12 Final - Leinster v Ospreys 27/05/12 - KO 4pm - RTE/TG4/S4C

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    #662
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭fitz


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Now a ref assessment by photo??
    Seriously, folks . . .

    Cause photo's never get used as evidence of an offence.
    I mean, next thing they'll be wanting to use them during citing hearings...
    :rolleyes:


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    #663
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    tolosenc wrote: »
    Unless he's retreating Pink Panther style, he is offside and it is advantage Leinster.
    I think it was JustinDee who pointed out earlier that there's a difference between standing offside and playing offside.

    Seriously, you could post a hundred stills from any match like that. Refs tend to let it go unless the offside player actually gets involved in something. Sometimes they even tell the offending player to get back, but when it's quick play it's just left.

    Otherwise we'd be complaining about refs having too much input and slowing the game down.

    We lost because (a) we lost our No.1 TH in the opening ten minutes and we started without Healy or O'Brien.
    (b) because it was a game too far in really tough conditions. and (c) because Ospreys were well up for the game for the full 80 and we hadn't the strength or mental freshness to put them away when the opportunities presented themselves.

    There's a reason why Cup and League doubles are as rare as hen's teeth.


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    #664
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    tolosenc wrote: »
    Unless he's retreating Pink Panther style, he is offside and it is advantage Leinster.

    The point is, the picture doesn't show if he was offside when the ball was thrown. The picture is evidence of nothing.


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    #665
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    So much happens in the split seconds after an engage that using any still frame to come to a conclusion is pretty hard


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    #666
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    fitz wrote: »
    Cause photo's never get used as evidence of an offence.
    I mean, next thing they'll be wanting to use them during citing hearings...
    :rolleyes:
    What happened when ball was moved? Did player bolt? Did he stay offside and tackle, or go across line and hold off? Did he retreat? Was he warned by either of the ARs? Was the ref warned by either AR? How did he differ from Leinster's fringe defence tactics through the game?
    All these answers are required in a split second while at ground level in the thick of it.
    Welcome to the wonderful world of refereeing, where you'll find it a tad different being amongst the players out on the paddock than up in the stand or on the sofa.


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    #667
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭fitz


    JustinDee wrote: »
    What happened when ball was moved? Did player bolt? Did he stay offside and tackle, or go across line and hold off? Did he retreat? Was he warned by either of the ARs? Was the ref warned by either AR? How did he differ from Leinster's fringe defence tactics through the game?
    All these answers are required in a split second while at ground level in the thick of it.
    Welcome to the wonderful world of refereeing, where you'll find it a tad different being amongst the players out on the paddock than up in the stand or on the sofa.

    Of course all of those things need to be taken into account, and I'm not saying those photos are definitive, but to dismiss the usefulness of photos to judge offences is a bit much.


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    #668
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    JustinDee wrote: »
    What happened when ball was moved? Did player bolt? Did he stay offside and tackle, or go across line and hold off? Did he retreat? Was he warned by either of the ARs? Was the ref warned by either AR? How did he differ from Leinster's fringe defence tactics through the game?
    All these answers are required in a split second while at ground level in the thick of it.
    Welcome to the wonderful world of refereeing, where you'll find it a tad different being amongst the players out on the paddock than up in the stand or on the sofa.

    oh jebus, I best never ever ever comment then. C'mon mods, you may as well close the forum, clearly we know nothing about anything.

    (smart arse comment for smart arse comment as you say yourself justin!)
    fitz wrote: »
    Of course all of those things need to be taken into account, and I'm not saying those photos are definitive, but to dismiss the usefulness of photos to judge offences is a bit much.

    David Attoub's ban was down to mostly photographic evidence? Certainly it's useful but it really depends on the case.


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    #669
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    David Attoub's ban was down to mostly photographic evidence? Certainly it's useful but it really depends on the case.

    From what I remember it was a fairly lengthy series of photos rather then just 1 or 2.


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    #670
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    oh jebus, I best never ever ever comment then. C'mon mods, you may as well close the forum, clearly we know nothing about anything.

    (smart arse comment for smart arse comment as you say yourself justin!)

    Alan, I was simply saying that it is a lot different on the ground than anywhere else. Its a completely different experience.


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    #671
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    JustinDee wrote: »
    thomond2006 wrote: »
    oh jebus, I best never ever ever comment then. C'mon mods, you may as well close the forum, clearly we know nothing about anything.

    (smart arse comment for smart arse comment as you say yourself justin!)

    Alan, I was simply saying that it is a lot different on the ground than anywhere else. Its a completely different experience.
    Are you a ref Justin?


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    #672
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    From what I remember it was a fairly lengthy series of photos rather then just 1 or 2.
    33 frames taken consecutively. The photographer was spat on and assaulted by Stade officials in the return game.


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    #673
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jesus boys can we let this one go?

    Never tasted such bad wine. We got beat, we shouldn't have had to rely on the referee for that not to happen. It's happened before, it'll happen again. Referees are fallible.


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    #674
    durkadurka
    Registered Users Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    Deleted User wrote: »
    jesus boys can we let this one go?

    Never tasted such bad wine. We got beat, we shouldn't have had to rely on the referee for that not to happen. It's happened before, it'll happen again. Referees are fallible.


    Agreed, we beat Clermont by a hairsbreadth, we lost to Ospreys by the same hairsbreadth. Win some lose some.

    Season lasted about 10 minutes too long, we ran out of gas.

    Move on and wait for the HEC draw.


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    #675
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Speaking of which, does anyone know when the HEC draw is?


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    #676
    durkadurka
    Registered Users Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Speaking of which, does anyone know when the HEC draw is?

    I heard next week.


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    #677
    Hippo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,877 ✭✭✭Hippo


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Ya, I was saying it back the thread but in relation to the break the Ospreys made in the first half. He made the tackle in the end with some help but he looked at sea tracking back

    In fairness to Kearney, and I'm not the biggest fan of his defence, he was struggling a bit after receiving treatment just prior to this as a result of a late A W Jones shoulder charge.


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    #678
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Hippo wrote: »
    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Ya, I was saying it back the thread but in relation to the break the Ospreys made in the first half. He made the tackle in the end with some help but he looked at sea tracking back

    In fairness to Kearney, and I'm not the biggest fan of his defence, he was struggling a bit after receiving treatment just prior to this as a result of a late A W Jones shoulder charge.
    His mistake on the Williams try was just really poor judgement. Made it so easy for the Ospreys.


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    #679
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Alan, I was simply saying that it is a lot different on the ground than anywhere else. Its a completely different experience.

    Is there a need to say "sofa", that word has very negative connotations.

    Anyway, I've said my piece.


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    #680
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Hagz wrote: »
    The point is, the picture doesn't show if he was offside when the ball was thrown. The picture is evidence of nothing.

    Not trying to keep this going or anything but he doesnt need to be offside when the ball is thrown. He stepped offside therefore he is offside regardless of whether or not he retreats, its advantage Leinster if the ref wants to give it.


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    #681
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    Not trying to keep this going or anything but he doesnt need to be offside when the ball is thrown. He stepped offside therefore he is offside regardless of whether or not he retreats, its advantage Leinster if the ref wants to give it.

    Just for the record I mentioned this earlier - the Ospreys player was offside when the ball was thrown, he darted outside and closed off any quick ball Leinster may have used.

    I really am no expert on the scrums, so as to the yellows I couldn't care less. They happened and for all I know they were warranted. However, it was clear to me the Ospreys were offside at nearly every ruck when we turned the ball over in injury time. The fact none of the three ref's could make a call on it tells me they bottled it. I'm not saying we would've won had the penalty been awarded, all I'm saying the ref(s) did make a mistake. That doesn't change anything. Ref(s) are human, mistakes happen. But arguing that it didn't happen however...


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    #682
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Is there a need to say "sofa", that word has very negative connotations
    Its where people would mainly watch a game if not in a pub or in stands, myself included...
    Touchy! lol


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    #683
    coast to coast
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭coast to coast


    I was at the game and had a fairly ****e seat but didn't come away from that match thinking it was the ref's fault we lost. One-point game with Leinster missing serious players in Healy, O'Brien and then Ross after a much harder run in (HEC final) against a talented and nuggety Ospreys team.

    The kicker was how much it resembled the home league game. It was like some inescapable whirlpool... just knew it would end with Biggar slotting over a conversion from the touchline in the last minute again.


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    #684
    Dave6858
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Dave6858


    Just have to say I was sitting in the southstand and had a perfect view of the penalty kick by Biggar which brought the score to 24 - 30...It was a clear miss,he pulled it to the left...and NO it wasnt through the post before it went left...check it out yourself..

    http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/home.php


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    #685
    [Jackass]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    Watched it again here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9TDuszZW8

    In fairness, that last penalty did go over (unlike the last conversion in the league game - not that it mattered in the end), you can see it goes behind the black tip at top of post before curling away.

    They won fair and square, in the sense that all their scores were scores, yes the ref (once again) screwed us, but then we've played the ref better than other teams many a time, and it's part and parcel of the modern game. Your playing of the ref is just as important as your set piece and your backline moves.

    It sucks balls big time, and we are a far better team, the only weapon they had was their scrum, and once again we were minus our first choice two props, and they had the most perfect ref for incapable reffing of the scrum, but thems the breaks. We were desperately unlucky to lose imo, but Ospreys did superb to keep in touch and nick it at the end, and that's life.

    Absolutely gutted, and incredibly bitter towards Ospreys as I feel they don't deserve the breaks they get all the time (4 titles without ever dominating the competition as much as Leinster or Munster), but games over, we lost, time to move on.


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    #686
    FrPhelimYoung
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭FrPhelimYoung


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    Watched it again here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9TDuszZW8

    Absolutely gutted for Leinster. And I'm particularly interested in checking out this "missed" penalty issue but I kept focussing on how obnoxious the commentators accent is.... holy fook....is he putting it on or what? Do people really talk this way in Ireland? I wanted to smash me phone off the wall it was so annoying!!!


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    #687
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    Not trying to keep this going or anything but he doesnt need to be offside when the ball is thrown. He stepped offside therefore he is offside regardless of whether or not he retreats, its advantage Leinster if the ref wants to give it.

    Yeh he does. Players step offside all the time, and refs tell them to retreat and they do. If it was advantage every time a player stepped offside, then why do refs tell them to get back instead of sticking out an arm?


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    #688
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Hagz wrote: »
    Yeh he does. Players step offside all the time, and refs tell them to retreat and they do. If it was advantage every time a player stepped offside, then why do refs tell them to get back instead of sticking out an arm?

    You said the picture wasnt proof of anything, its proof he's offside seeing as he's standing in an offside position. Depending on the following play a ref may give advantage or he may not if he deems your not interfering with play which this guy did didnt he ?

    Refs tells them to get back to stop them interfering but I dont recall the ref acknowledging that anyone was offside int hat final play. Maybe I'm wrong on it but I have seen a few penalties given for being offside even though they retreated before engaging. France got done for it in the WC final. Stepped offside, ref told him to get back, he got back, play came his way and the ref gave a penalty.


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    #689
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Irish teams play fast and loose with the offside line as much (if not more) than any other team and have a rep for it. Its called intelligence. There's no ref in the world who can maintain the offside at every ruck, especially in a game with back row forwards of the standard of Ospreys and Leinster.

    I personally thought Poite is one of the very best in the world at what he does and is nowhere near the reason Leinster were beaten by a better team.


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    #690
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Irish teams play fast and loose with the offside line as much (if not more) than any other team and have a rep for it. Its called intelligence. There's no ref in the world who can maintain the offside at every ruck, especially in a game with back row forwards of the standard of Ospreys and Leinster.

    I personally thought Poite is one of the very best in the world at what he does and is nowhere near the reason Leinster were beaten by a better team.

    I don't blame the loss on him totally, there were many other more obvious reasons, but that yellow card changed the game from Leinster clearing the ball downfield with a 10 point lead, to down to 14 men with a 7 point lead.

    I think it was a baffling decision, and that had to have some effect on the outcome of the game.


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    #691
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Irish teams play fast and loose with the offside line as much (if not more) than any other team and have a rep for it. Its called intelligence. There's no ref in the world who can maintain the offside at every ruck, especially in a game with back row forwards of the standard of Ospreys and Leinster.

    I personally thought Poite is one of the very best in the world at what he does and is nowhere near the reason Leinster were beaten by a better team.

    I don't blame the loss on him totally, there were many other more obvious reasons, but that yellow card changed the game from Leinster clearing the ball downfield with a 10 point lead, to down to 14 men with a 7 point lead.

    I think it was a baffling decision, and that had to have some effect on the outcome of the game.
    If you think it was an incorrect decision, absolutely.

    I thought it was mad, but I know very knowledgeable neutrals who say it wasn't, so maybe I'm biased. I still think Ospreys were worth their win on the day.


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