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Margaret Thatcher was she really that bad?

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    #272
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,281 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Biggins wrote: »
    That is the most silly statement I have seen all day.

    Do you know how long exactly its takes and how many miles it takes to make a single turn?
    Seriously?
    Absolutely daft "5 minute" statement!

    A WWII cruiser? From this picture,

    nachi.jpg

    Seems to be about a 250m radius turn, and assuming she's making best speed (35kts or so), about 45 seconds to do a full turn about.

    This is a WWII aircraft carrier pulling a full 360.
    soryu.jpg

    Besides, what does it matter? It's a significant enemy warship in a war situation and in a position which could threaten the fleet. It would have been foolish not to sink her. After the Argentine Navy withdrew the major combatants to Argentine waters where they were not longer a significant threat, the RN pretty much left them alone.

    NTM


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    #273
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    ...After the Argentine Navy withdrew the major combatants to Argentine waters where they were not longer a significant threat, the RN pretty much left them alone.
    ...There was me thinking the Belgrano too was out in Argentine waters, beyond the exclusion zone.

    ----

    However, regardless of that incident which some here seem to make out, makes her cleaner than driven snow, lets not forget about a few other things about her period in power:

    * Rather than stimulating the economy through investment and tax cuts, she tried to control the amount of money in circulation. Mrs Thatcher thought this would reduce inflation from its 1979 level of 10.3%. It didn't. Inflation doubled within a year and only fell to present day levels of 2-3% in 1986.

    By this point, the damage had been done. To get to such a low level, indirect taxes had been hiked (VAT rose from 8% to 15%), as had interest rates (topping 17%). Subsidies for industry were reduced. The result was a massive rise in unemployment from 1.4m in 1979 to 3.5m by 1982, or one in eight people out of work.

    * Long-term unemployment blighted an entire generation in Northern Ireland (where 20% of people were left out of work), Scotland and the NE and NW of England (16%).

    * ...She also left it in recession, with unemployment, inflation and interest rates rising.
    Above all, not only was she bad for the country during her premiership, she continues to be bad for the country today. The causes of the present slump - unrestricted credit, deregulation and too much financial speculation - all date back to the 1980s. No successive government dared reverse these decisions: a blessing to her legacy, but a curse we must now all share.
    Source: http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=150369015

    * Poll Tax

    * Miner's Strike

    * Abolished free school meals for all children that many she put on the breadline!

    * Abolished free school milk for Englands kids that many she put on the breadline!

    * Stirred up more trouble between England and Ireland.

    * 2 recessions in her tenure

    * In breaking the unions - she left the working class with no voice in their workplace, stuck and either accept their lot or lose their job!

    * 4 million unemployed

    * 15% inflation

    * Record house repossessions

    * Record business closures

    * Record bankruptcies

    * Pinochet supporting!

    * South Africa and upholding its then evil white bigotry existence. Calling on top of this, Mandela nothing but "a terrorist".
    (The latter conveniently and quietly forgotten about by the later Conservative party, you know the one that booted her out because she was that bad even by their own sight - as they tried then later again to win back over the population in renewed PR efforts!)

    * The rejection of the Northern Ireland forum and their peace accord with her infamous "No - No - No" to their offers of peace!

    * She destroyed whole communities forever in her crusade against socialism and gave away £billions to the City and Corporations in another insane system, the trickle down! She frankly did more damage to British industry than the Luftwaffe did in the second world war its often joked about with sad consequences!
    Any prosperity Thatcher brought was selective, antagonistic to all and temporary. She did leave her favoured parts of Britain “better” as she saw it, but only for some!

    * O' and as regards the Falklands war - she and her cabinet were aware of the imminent invasion by Argentina at least 3 months before it occured and did feck all about it! She needed the victory to boost her popularity many have assessed.

    Good lady my arse - some need to get those rose tinted glasses off!


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    #274
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    It is possible to believe the sinking of the Belgrano was acceptable and still dislike Thatcher.

    Personally, I found her reaction to south Africa and her support for Pinochet to be sickening.

    My opinion of her has softened with time though and I genuinely think the UK benefited from her tenure, especially when you look at the alternatives at the time.

    She did give the smarter unions a new negotiating angle, productivity. If workers delivered more, employers had no excuse to not pay them more and the union I was in, the AUEW was very good at exploiting that.


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    #275
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    true wrote: »
    to put it another way so, she country pumped billions of euros in to Ireland through the EC structural funds, cap etc..

    They gave money to the EU, the EU dispersed the funds. Germany, France and a number of states contributed as well.
    true wrote: »
    In those turbulent years of the eighties some of our security forces were killed fighting the PIRA but her security forces done the brunt of the work.
    ..

    Like shooting down GAA players and giving information to loyalists. A sterling job indeed.
    true wrote: »
    When it came to fighting the cold war we sheltered behind the UK too. Gadaffi supplied the PIRA : she was proved right in relation to his regime too and who allowed American warplanes to use the UK as a base to bomb Libya in the eighties?
    ..


    You were saying she "defeated" him earlier.
    true wrote: »
    She had a canny knack in being proved right about everything. If only we had her here in charge of things during the tiger years we would not have suffered from corrupt politicians, light touch banking regulation and government spending doubling in ten years.

    She was wrong about Apartheid, homosexuality and legislation, pinochet and a number of other things. She left office with inflation at 10%.

    You know she championed "light touch banking regulation"?


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    #276
    3ndahalfof6
    Registered Users Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    I have looked at all the post and had to keep checking it was AH I was in, in 30yrs time there will be someone new, politics and politicians have been around for a long time now, how many times do you have to fook it up to find the right way to do it,

    she was not so cold hearted as some think, she did drop a tear when leaving num 10.


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    #277
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Nodin wrote: »
    They gave money to the EU, the EU dispersed the funds. Germany, France and a number of states contributed as well.
    Exactly. The UK was the 2nd biggest doner to the EC after Germany. We beneffitted hugely.

    Nodin wrote: »
    Like shooting down GAA players
    Statistics show that more Catholics were killed by Republicans than by the British Government or its security forces.

    Nodin wrote: »
    She was wrong about Apartheid,
    We are talking about the UK which she was p.m. of, not some country in the southern hemisphere. Minorities increased in the UK during her reign....

    Nodin wrote: »
    homosexuality and legislation,
    during the eighties I remember Irish gays ( not to mention other Irish minorities) going to England because they found it a much more tolerant place to live than Ireland at the time...
    Nodin wrote: »
    You know she championed "light touch banking regulation"?
    You know banking regulation in the UK under her watch was efficient and well done, not like here during the tiger where there was virtually no banking regulation besides a nod and a wink and Fitzgerald telling his golfing buddies to wear the green jumper?


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    #278
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Why the north?

    I think she seriously under estimated the Hunger strikes and to me, after extensive reading on it, seemed to not understand how significant it was to Irish people. It kind of summed her up, defeat the enemy at all costs, never show "weakness" by trying to understand the enemy.
    Why Liverpool?

    Going on papers released this year, a Tory Lord advised the Government to starve Liverpool of funding. While that was extreme it goes along with the general ethos, defeat your enemy at all costs.
    She had nothing against miners, it was the NUM and Scargill she was fighting.

    Maybe, how do you explain Wapping?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #279
    pm.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭pm.


    A total C.unt


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    #280
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Biggins wrote: »
    She frankly did more damage to British industry than the Luftwaffe did in the second world war

    Rubbish. Much of British industry was very uncompetitive anyway. Remember the strikes in Britain in the 1970's? The IMF was there then even. Remember how awful British cars were then, how unreliable, and how productivity was bad? With cheap imports etc unproductive old-style industries were not going to survive.
    Thatcher stopped the slide and created prosperity and hope. Thats why she won 3 elections in a row.


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    #281
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    true wrote: »
    Exactly. The UK was the 2nd biggest doner to the EC after Germany. We beneffitted hugely.?

    ...because we qualified and Europe allocated the money to us, not because Thatcher directed the funds.

    true wrote: »
    Statistics show that more Catholics were killed by Republicans than by the British Government or its security forces..

    None of which makes any difference to the collusion and targeting issues I raised earlier.
    true wrote: »
    We are talking about the UK which she was p.m. of, not some country in the southern hemisphere. Minorities increased in the UK during her reign....
    ..

    If you reread the OP you'll see we're talking about Thatcher. The fact of the matter is that her refusal to back sanctions extended the life of the Apartheid regime.
    true wrote: »
    during the eighties I remember Irish gays ( not to mention other Irish minorities) going to England because they found it a much more tolerant place to live than Ireland at the time.....


    A situation which section 28 started to roll back.
    true wrote: »
    You know banking regulation in the UK under her watch was efficient and well done, not like here during the tiger where there was virtually no banking regulation besides a nod and a wink and Fitzgerald telling his golfing buddies to wear the green jumper?

    You stated
    If only we had her here in charge of things during the tiger years we would not have suffered from corrupt politicians, light touch banking regulation and government spending doubling in ten years.

    ...the fact is that she championed "light touch banking regulation".

    And of course there was the 1989/93 property crash due to her policies as well.


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    #282
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    true wrote: »
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Thatcher stopped the slide and created prosperity and hope. Thats why she won 3 elections in a row.

    I remember the Thatcher years and "prosperity and hope" were not words associated with it for most.

    A housing bubble and crash, inflation at 10% and high unemployment, a less equal distribution of wealth than hitherto, overconcentration on financial services, the increased geographical concentration of wealth.....she won 3 elections in a row because of the most bizarre system in Western Europe, not because of the popular vote.


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    #283
    snafuk35
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 833 ✭✭✭snafuk35


    If the ARA General Belgrano was in the Pacific Ocean it still would have been justified to sink her.
    She was an enemy ship and it doesn't matter if she was tied up in port or if she was firing at British forces.

    The ARA General Belgrano was armed with long range 6 inch and 5 inch guns as well as 40mm and 20mm anti-aircraft guns and Sea Cat anti-aircraft missiles.

    It was in a position to intercept the British Task Force from the south.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/ARA.Belgrano.sunk.svg


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    #284
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    I 100% support her Hayekian economic policy. I 100% her policy on the Falklands. I 100% support her stance on the Unions. I 100% support her stance on socialism. I 100% support her attitudes towards the IRA Hunger Strikers - they were terrorists, plan and simple and should not have been regarded as "political prisoners" - imagine if the 9/11 plotters were regarded as "political prisoners", what nonsense. I don't support her attitudes towards homosexuality (obviously, as I'm gay) but I don't think that that little blemish should overshadow all the good work she did do. As for the ARA General Belgrano, it was totally legitimate to sink it - though it was flouting away from the exclusion zone it was still being used and was a threat to the British Task Force.


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    #285
    deisedave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭deisedave


    Pedant wrote: »
    I 100% support her Hayekian economic policy. I 100% her policy on the Falklands. I 100% support her stance on the Unions. I 100% support her stance on socialism. I 100% support her attitudes towards the IRA Hunger Strikers - they were terrorists, plan and simple and should not have been regarded as "political prisoners" - imagine if the 9/11 plotters were regarded as "political prisoners", what nonsense. I don't support her attitudes towards homosexuality (obviously, as I'm gay) but I don't think that that little blemish should overshadow all the good work she did do. As for the ARA General Belgrano, it was totally legitimate to sink it - though it was flouting away from the exclusion zone it was still being used and was a threat to the British Task Force.

    If it wasnt for the IRA back then catholics in N. Ireland would still not have equal rights and would still be harassed. I am not totally in support of them but I think they deserved Political status and I do not think you can compare people who were fighting for freedom and equal rights to the taliban who just want to kill anyone who is not muslim.


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    #286
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    deisedave wrote: »
    If it wasnt for the IRA back then catholics in N. Ireland would still not have equal rights and would still be harassed. I am not totally in support of them but I think they deserved Political status and I do not think you can compare people who were fighting for freedom and equal rights to the taliban who just want to kill anyone who is not muslim.

    You're changing the topic here totally. Your statement "If it wasnt for the IRA back then catholics in N. Ireland would still not have equal rights and would still be harassed" is inconsequential here. The IRA were terrorists, pure and simple. They deserved the same status in prisons as those who were members of the UVF, or any other illegal organisation that opted for the gun in politics. Those IRA prisoners in the Maze prison chose to die, they committed suicide, they were being offered food but they rejected it.


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    #287
    Spread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭Spread


    Pedant, I won't quote you (oxygen of publicity etc) but you are obviously attracted to assertive women as much as men.

    I lived in London during Thatcher's reign when she created massive unemployment to counter the runaway inflation.

    The housing crash there was as severe as the one in Ireland ........... purely driven by her policies.

    I suppose you also believe that Nelson Mandela should not have become an elder statesman.

    History is written by the victors. If Thatcher was an Argentinian leader, she would have faced a war-crimes court.

    Why do you think that she got fucked out of Downing St?

    "The lady's not for turning"? She is now ......... by her nurse ...... to stop the bed sores. Hallelujah!

    You sound like one of these bitter little sycophants tethered to her apron strings.


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    #288
    the purple tin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,943 ✭✭✭✭the purple tin


    The woman lived to throw her weight around and took every opportunity to prove that she could be more hard-line than any man.
    I truly believe that she got a kick out of confrontation and the suffering of others.

    On the plus side she made the best Spitting Image character ever.


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    #289
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    I dont understand why anyone would support her over the hungerstrikes, she gave in to the demands in the end, only after super publicity and recruitment for the provos and the INLA.

    You'd think the Brits would have learned from 1916 that it is a bad idea to make martyrs out of republicans.

    This great line always come to mind when I think of Thatcher: "Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always"


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    #290
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Spread wrote: »
    I lived in London during Thatcher's reign when she created massive unemployment to counter the runaway inflation.

    Yes, of course a certain amount of people are going to lose their jobs when pointless, profitless and nonviable industries are liquidated. Yet, somehow, the economy was a lot better off at the end of Thatcher's reign than at the beginning when she had to deal with the aftermath of the disastrous Labour government that brought the UK to the knees of the IMF.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw

    Spread wrote: »
    I suppose you also believe that Nelson Mandela should not have become an elder statesman.

    Staw man.
    Spread wrote: »
    History is written by the victors. If Thatcher was an Argentinian leader, she would have faced a war-crimes court.

    Under what charges, defending sovereign territory acquired by the UK 200 years ago?
    Spread wrote: »
    Why do you think that she got fucked out of Downing St?

    I wonder why she was in for so long ... hmmm.


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    #291
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    I dont understand why anyone would support her over the hungerstrikes, she gave in to the demands in the end, only after super publicity and recruitment for the provos and the INLA.

    You'd think the Brits would have learned from 1916 that it is a bad idea to make martyrs out of republicans.

    This great line always come to mind when I think of Thatcher: "Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always"

    support for the martyrs was so big the IRA decided to keep it going and ended up killing more than Thatcher did.:rolleyes:

    As a thought, we like to hear of how every event like bloody sunday, the hunger strikes etc created support for the IRA, do people not realise that every shopping centre bombed created the opposite in England?

    if it wasn't for the IRA overshadowing the civil rights abuses in NI, catholics may have had their rights long before they did.

    besides, since when were the IRA fighting for civil rights, they were fighting for a united Ireland, they simply used civil rights as a recruiting tool.


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    #292
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    I dont understand why anyone would support her over the hungerstrikes, she gave in to the demands in the end, only after super publicity and recruitment for the provos and the INLA.

    You'd think the Brits would have learned from 1916 that it is a bad idea to make martyrs out of republicans.

    That would have been my thinking up until recently. Though it now appears she offered the same deal that was eventually implemented after the first 4 died but Sinn Fein said no despite the leaders in the prison accepting it. Was important to them to win the by election after Bobby died.

    The inla political wing (IRSP) outside the prison never heard of the deal
    IRSP Investigation findings into 1981 Hunger Strike deal disclosed!


    On Wednesday 11th April 2012, Teach na Failte in Belfast hosted a public meeting on the 1981 Hunger Strike, the first in a 3 day exhibition and series of public meetings on the H-Block campaign era held in Cliftonvile Community Centre in the north of the city. The public meeting on the 11th April, chaired by Teach na Failte representative, Paul Little, included invited speakers, Richard O’Rawe, former PRO of the Provisional IRA H-Block prisoners during the Hunger Strike and author of ’Blanketmen’ and ‘Afterlives’. Also on the panel were former O/C of INLA prisoners in the H-Blocks during the 1981 Hunger Strike, Rab Collins and former INLA blanketman and IRSP spokesperson, Willie Gallagher.
    Former Sinn Fein publicity director, Danny Morrison and former H-Block O/C of the Provisional IRA prisoners during the 1981 Hunger Strike, Bik McFarlane, were both invited to take part in the public meeting but neither attended.

    IRSP spokesperson, Willie Gallagher, took the opportunity to reveal the definitive findings of a 7 year long IRSP investigation into the reported existence of a ‘deal’ offered by British government representatives during the secret ‘Mountain Climber’ negotiations at the time of the 1981 H-Block Hunger Strike which would have met the majority of the H-Block protesting prisoners’ ’5 demands’ and saved the lives of at least 5 of the Hunger Strikers.

    Speaking at the public meeting, Willie Gallagher stated, “the 7 year IRSP investigation into the revelations, first disclosed in February 2005 in the book ‘Blanketmen’, has conclusively found that Ricky O’Rawe has been consistently telling the truth! There is now no doubt on the factual existence of a substantial deal offered by British government negotiators that could have saved the lives of many of the Hunger Strikers and met most of the prisoners’ 5 demands. It is now a matter of fact that a substantial ‘deal’ from the British representatives did indeed go into the H-Blocks on the 5th July, 1981.”

    Mr Gallagher continued,”the Provisional IRA leadership in Long Kesh, during the 1981 Hunger Strike, accepted the offer as it met most of the H-Block prisoners’ 5 demands but the Adams-led committee known as ‘the Kitchen Cabinet’ rejected and overuled the gaol leadership’s acceptance of the deal. The INLA and IRSP leadership outside the gaol were kept completely in the dark about the ‘Mountain Climber’ initiative, as were the INLA prisoners in the H-Blocks and the Hunger Strikers themselves.“

    At the conclusion of the Hunger Strike public meeting, Teach na Failte representative, Paul Little, restated the IRSP position that only a transparent and independent enquiry into the events surrounding the 1981 Hunger Strike and the secret ‘Mountain Climber’ negotiations, will now satisfy the broad Republican community. The Hunger Strikes exhibition and public meetings will continue until Friday 13th April, 2012

    For further details, contact Teach na Failte:

    http://www.irsp.ie/news/?p=792


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    #293
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    That would have been my thinking up until recently. Though it now appears she offered the same deal that was eventually implemented after the first 4 died but Sinn Fein said no despite the leaders in the prison accepting it. Was important to them to win the by election after Bobby died.

    The inla political wing (IRSP) outside the prison never heard of the deal
    I don't believe it for many reasons, one of which is the fact that if the British revealed that it would have been very damaging for Sinn Féin and the provos, hence in their interest to do so.


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    #294
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    I don't believe it for many reasons, one of which is the fact that if the British revealed that it would have been very damaging for Sinn Féin and the provos, hence in their interest to do so.

    They couldn't reveal it because at the time Thatcherwas saying publicly there would be no question of political status


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    #295
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    They couldn't reveal it because at the time Thatcherwas saying publicly there would be no question of political status
    What about afterwards?


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    #296
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    What about afterwards?

    The British saw it as a way to bring Sinn Fein into mainstream politics and remove the IRA from the equation.

    It worked out pretty well for them and it is exactly what happened. Within 5 years they had Sinn Fein recognising the Dail and a permanent IRA ceasefire in 96. Throwing a spanner like that into the works would have destroyed the Adams led leadership.


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    #297
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    The British saw it as a way to bring Sinn Fein into mainstream politics and remove the IRA from the equation.

    It worked out pretty well for them and it is exactly what happened. Within 5 years they had Sinn Fein recognising the Dail and a permanent IRA ceasefire in 96. Throwing a spanner like that into the works would have destroyed the Adams led leadership.

    ...which rather ignores the fact that Adams had favoured a political solution as far back as the early 70's, as is well known within Republican circles.


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    #298
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pedant wrote: »
    Yes, of course a certain amount of people are going to lose their jobs when pointless, profitless and nonviable industries are liquidated. Yet, somehow, the economy was a lot better off at the end of Thatcher's reign than at the beginning when she had to deal with the aftermath of the disastrous Labour government that brought the UK to the knees of the IMF. .

    ....the economy had marginally improved, at the cost of much social division and inequality which still exists today. Part fixing something by breaking other things is hardly an acheivement worthy of uncritical praise.
    Pedant wrote: »
    I wonder why she was in for so long ... hmmm.

    A system that means 40% or so of the popular vote equating to a massive majority would be the man there.


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    #299
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....the economy had marginally improved, at the cost of much social division and inequality which still exists today. Part fixing something by breaking other things is hardly an acheivement worthy of uncritical praise.



    A system that means 40% or so of the popular vote equating to a massive majority would be the man there.

    The only way to fix an economy is by breaking the shackles that bind it to the state.


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    #300
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pedant wrote: »
    The only way to fix an economy is by breaking the shackles that bind it to the state.

    One of the reasons I never really warmed to communists (when they used be around) was that whenever you pointed out some completly unnessecary suffering caused by a policy, they would answer with some bit of semi-flowery rhetoric or other. It's a 'tactic' that doesn't improve when used by the right.

    The welfare of the people....that's supposed to be important.


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    #301
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Pedant wrote: »
    ...I wonder why she was in for so long ... hmmm.

    ...Because she was a bully and a thug - even to her own people around her cabinet table - who even they, eventually had enough of her stupidity, class hatred and frankly her mental state, which we know now is even worse!

    Good riddance to the bitch and when she is gone, I'll crack open a bottle of champaign I have in my fridge!


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