Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Krusader · 08-04-2012 06:04PM

Every few weeks I pop my head into after hours there's one of these threads.

*slowly backs away*

WillieFlynn · 08-04-2012 06:11PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Every few weeks I pop my head into after hours there's one of these threads.

*slowly backs away*

Must be because people on both sides feel very strongly about the topic.

Wibbs · 08-04-2012 10:16PM

Personally I don't feel particularly strongly on the subject itself. I would support the language. Yep. However I do feel strongly when I feel I/we are being bullshítted by any lobby group who refuses to see the objective realities from the high saddle of their particular hobby horse. Even more so when they get defensive and exclusive and expensive about it. Worse when they make the case for those equally saddled up on the opposing side.

Ms.M · 09-04-2012 10:59AM

While one might argue that output in the English language in the Arts is "better", (Though you'd have to have access to Irish language output to be able to judge), there is certainly MORE material written in the Irish language by Irish people than there is written in the English language by Irish people. To say otherwise is ill-informed. I studied both, I actually have a Masters in Anglo-Irish literature. But I read more Irish because there simply is more.

Obviously, not as many Irish people have access to these texts but I think they are of cultural import. I would like to see more people being able to access this culture. Again, I have already outlined the impact making Irish non-compulsory would have on the language.

They document strength in times of violence and famine. I can only say personally, while the Famine was always a tragedy to me I was completely detached from its victims until I read An Duanaire; The poems of the dispossessed (1600 to 1900 by the way). I saw them as poor unfortunate souls, a tragedy to be forgotten. They were also pissed off human beings who had something to say. They wanted their voices heard.
So I listen to them.
Now I know that this is wishy-washy for a lot of people, and if you're a purely Scientific soul you're not going to gain the same from Irish that I did. But again (see my original post), even if a minority benefits it's worth it.

If you are only judging on our "international" contribution, well I think it's fair to say we have an ideological difference.

This is going off-topic however.
Some of the arguments are valid and I hope my two cents has been some contribution.
Unfortunately, it is not as fun defending a culture than it is belittling it. I think a better expenditure of my time would be teaching people who do want to know more about Irish.

Respectfully, I bow out.

09-04-2012 11:03AM

I like irish. It should still be optional.

lividduck · 09-04-2012 11:07AM

Ms.M wrote: »

While one might argue that output in the English language in the Arts is "better", (Though you'd have to have access to Irish language output to be able to judge), there is certainly MORE material written in the Irish language by Irish people than there is written in the English language by Irish people. To say otherwise is ill-informed. I studied both, I actually have a Masters in Anglo-Irish literature. But I read more Irish because there simply is more.

Obviously, not as many Irish people have access to these texts but I think they are of cultural import. I would like to see more people being able to access this culture. Again, I have already outlined the impact making Irish non-compulsory would have on the language.

They document strength in times of violence and famine. I can only say personally, while the Famine was always a tragedy to me I was completely detached from its victims until I read An Duanaire; The poems of the dispossessed (1600 to 1900 by the way). I saw them as poor unfortunate souls, a tragedy to be forgotten. They were also pissed off human beings who had something to say. They wanted their voices heard.
So I listen to them.
Now I know that this is wishy-washy for a lot of people, and if you're a purely Scientific soul you're not going to gain the same from Irish that I did. But again (see my original post), even if a minority benefits it's worth it.

If you are only judging on our "international" contribution, well I think it's fair to say we have an ideological difference.

This is going off-topic however.
Some of the arguments are valid and I hope my two cents has been some contribution.
Unfortunately, it is not as fun defending a culture than it is belittling it. I think a better expenditure of my time would be teaching people who do want to know more about Irish.

Respectfully, I bow out.

Questioning the logic and sanity of spending up to €1 billion a year on a language that almost nobody speaks on a daily basis to any meaningful degree is not "belittling a culture".
As for your teaching of Irish, I can only hope it is to those who are there willing as against those currently forced to study it.
I would re-iterate again I have nothing against the Irish language per se, I have a big problem with it being subvented to the tune of up to a billion euro year, and I have issues with it being compulsory in schools, particularly at second level.

Wibbs · 09-04-2012 11:35AM

Ms.M wrote: »

While one might argue that output in the English language in the Arts is "better", (Though you'd have to have access to Irish language output to be able to judge), there is certainly MORE material written in the Irish language by Irish people than there is written in the English language by Irish people. To say otherwise is ill-informed. I studied both, I actually have a Masters in Anglo-Irish literature. But I read more Irish because there simply is more.

Only if you want to stretch the time frame back to the egg. And that's cool. However even taking your example of An Duanaire, a collection of work covering three centuries a quick check on Amazon shows Joyce's Ulysses alone is double the page count. OK never mind the quality feel the width

but - and not doubting you BTW - I would still like to see actual figures as far as output of the two languages goes over the last 200 years, because paper won't refuse the ink of opinion. You also expressed dismay that we don't see the wealth of Irish in the arts and sciences. The sciences are pretty much completely absent from the Irish language. To suggest otherwise is a tad odd.

Obviously, not as many Irish people have access to these texts but I think they are of cultural import.

As do I.

They document strength in times of violence and famine. I can only say personally, while the Famine was always a tragedy to me I was completely detached from its victims until I read An Duanaire; The poems of the dispossessed (1600 to 1900 by the way). I saw them as poor unfortunate souls, a tragedy to be forgotten. They were also pissed off human beings who had something to say. They wanted their voices heard.
So I listen to them.
Now I know that this is wishy-washy for a lot of people

Not at all wishy washy. It's part of our heritage. So long as it's not part of our future, or paraded as a breastbeating flag to march behind.

and if you're a purely Scientific soul you're not going to gain the same from Irish that I did. But again (see my original post), even if a minority benefits it's worth it.

Agreed, but why does making it optional at secondary level take from that?

If you are only judging on our "international" contribution, well I think it's fair to say we have an ideological difference.

We've been too insular and navel gazing and an beal bocht for too long. It wasn't always so. When Irish was being put to paper as the first non classical language to be so, we were anything but insular in mindset. We were looking to engage internationally and indeed did so(The old 9th century Irish poem Pangur Bán was written in what is now Germany). Given the choice between looking inwards and jerking off on tragic history(which is all too often the vibe), give me the local, yet international scope of a Roddy Doyle book any day. And I can't stand Roddy Doyle's stuff.

Unfortunately, it is not as fun defending a culture than it is belittling it.

I'd strongly disagree, but since you're saying slan...

C14N · 09-04-2012 12:20PM

Ms.M wrote: »

While one might argue that output in the English language in the Arts is "better", (Though you'd have to have access to Irish language output to be able to judge), there is certainly MORE material written in the Irish language by Irish people than there is written in the English language by Irish people.

We had to study one or two old poems in Irish for the LC and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the older stuff will not be understood by the vast, vast majority who are forced to learn Irish. It's just too difficult. It's like trying to teach Shakespeare to a person with moderate English. That's beside the fact that there is so much resentment for stuff like that because its so painful having to learn it.

Ms.M wrote: »

If you are only judging on our "international" contribution, well I think it's fair to say we have an ideological difference.

Well in that case, lets not. Instead go around an Irish town (whether Dublin or a small town in the countryside) and see how much Irish language literature has contributed to most people's lives. See if you can find anyone who can name any Irish work besides "An Triail" or "Peig".

riclad · 09-04-2012 03:32PM

Would irish be worse off ,if it was voluntary .THE gaelscoils would still exist.People that want to can still speak it, let the government use the billion to reduce government spending and stop the sacking of teaching assistants.
IT would be a sign of maturity and common sense.Financial experts say at some point government lending must be reduced from 20billion to 2billion.
IT makes no sense ,sacking special needs teachers while spending 1billion on irish.And these teachers will end up on welfare.
I do not feel worse off because i,m not fluent in irish.
I can still appreciate irish culture,music ,short storys without speaking the language.
IF everyone spoke irish fluently , that would not turn us into a nation of saints and scholars.
There ,d still be the same ratio of eejits,morons, criminals out there as there is now.
I,M sure some of the stupid bankers,and currupt politicians who destroyed the economy were well educated and learned irish.
They still behaved in a ruthless and immoral manner.
THE people who brought in compulsory irish, were of the same mindset as people who banned
most irish writers in the fiftys and sixtys.

senordingdong · 09-04-2012 06:46PM

WillieFlynn wrote: »

No, we are talking about the frustration of people for one reason or another don't want to do Irish as a Leaving Cert subject, being forced to.

Why stop at Irish? Lets make Maths non-compulsory, loads of people hate that.
Infact people, hate school, lets make that non-compulsory.

Namlub · 09-04-2012 07:50PM

senordingdong wrote: »

Why stop at Irish? Lets make Maths compulsory, loads of people hate that.
Infact people, hate school, lets make that compulsory.

Do you know what compulsory means?

Declan Lander · 09-04-2012 08:41PM

Really, I can't see the harm in making Irish optional after the Junior cert.

If anything it would make it more respected / focused.

Am I missing something ?

senordingdong · 09-04-2012 08:58PM

Namlub wrote: »

Do you know what compulsory means?

No.
I wasn't very good at English so I opted not to make any effort with it.
Instead I went online to complain about it.

Btw, that was a typo in my previous post.
The point stands.

riclad · 09-04-2012 08:58PM

MATHS is a logical useful subject,which can be used in real life ,vital for most science based subjects,For 99 per cent of people irish of of no practical use after the leaving.it will help you to get a job too.
We need more people doing science based subjects and modern languages ,if the economy is too recover.
Loads of people hate maths, so they take lower level maths,
i think most people simply ignore irish, cos they feel it has no relevance outside school,ie they feel its a waste of time.
THE government has a logical practical reason for teaching maths to everyone.
I,VE never met anyone that speaks irish daily ,i,ve never been to the gaeltacht.
i see writers ,poets,broadcasters, on tv,
they are getting paid to speak irish,its part of thier job
or they are from the gaeltacht ,they were brought up to speak it as a child.

lividduck · 09-04-2012 09:00PM

senordingdong wrote: »

No.
I wasn't very good at English so I opted not to make any effort with it.
Instead I went online to complain about it.

It is really refreshing to see a poster who picked a nickname to match their intellect!:D

Joe_Dull · 09-04-2012 09:01PM

Declan Lander wrote: »

Really, I can't see the harm in making Irish optional after the Junior cert.

If anything it would make it more respected / focused.

Am I missing something ?

What you're missing is that absolutely no one will pick a subject for Leaving Cert that's as hard as Irish, if they can pick a subject like Biology or Religion instead. I love Irish, but if I had a choice whether or not to do it there's not a chance in hell that I would have. CAO points are too much of a reality for second level students; ****e like "people who like the language will still study it" is just plain false. Make Irish optional and in a decade or so the language will be all but dead, and only our accent will separate us from other English-speaking nations.

lividduck · 09-04-2012 09:03PM

Joe_Dull wrote: »

What you're missing is that absolutely no one will pick a subject for Leaving Cert that's as hard as Irish, if they can pick a subject like Biology or Religion instead. I love Irish, but if I had a choice whether or not to do it there's not a chance in hell that I would have. CAO points are too much of a reality for second level students; ****e like "people who like the language will still study it" is just plain false. Make Irish optional and in a decade or so the language will be all but dead, and only our accent will separate us from other English-speaking nations.

Then if you are right it will die a natural death, so be it.

Joe_Dull · 09-04-2012 09:04PM

lividduck wrote: »

Then if you are right it will die a natural death, so be it.

You really think a language - any language - should die due to a flawed examination system? Jesus, that's sad...

senordingdong · 09-04-2012 09:07PM

Joe_Dull wrote: »

You really think a language - any language - should die due to a flawed examination system? Jesus, that's sad...

And not the least bit natural.

Mickeroo · 09-04-2012 09:07PM

Joe_Dull wrote: »

What you're missing is that absolutely no one will pick a subject for Leaving Cert that's as hard as Irish, if they can pick a subject like Biology or Religion instead. I love Irish, but if I had a choice whether or not to do it there's not a chance in hell that I would have. CAO points are too much of a reality for second level students; ****e like "people who like the language will still study it" is just plain false. Make Irish optional and in a decade or so the language will be all but dead, and only our accent will separate us from other English-speaking nations.

Do they actually examine Religion these days? If the only thing, as you seem to be implying, thats stopping the language dying is that its compulsory then its already dead.

Declan Lander · 09-04-2012 09:12PM

Joe_Dull wrote: »

What you're missing is that absolutely no one will pick a subject for Leaving Cert that's as hard as Irish, if they can pick a subject like Biology or Religion instead. I love Irish, but if I had a choice whether or not to do it there's not a chance in hell that I would have. CAO points are too much of a reality for second level students; ****e like "people who like the language will still study it" is just plain false. Make Irish optional and in a decade or so the language will be all but dead, and only our accent will separate us from other English-speaking nations.

I love Irish too, but what your missing is that anyone who is fluent in Irish or has a family background in it will choose it at leaving cert level, as it would be relatively easy subject for them. What your also missing is that quiting Irish only after studying it as manditory from age 4 to say 15, 11 years in total, is not going to allow it to die off. If Irish was taught properly like French or German, people should be quite fluent at it by Junior cert stage, and thats a high enough level for compulsory study.

lividduck · 09-04-2012 09:15PM

Joe_Dull wrote: »

You really think a language - any language - should die due to a flawed examination system? Jesus, that's sad...

I never mentioned an exam system, you did.

Mickeroo · 09-04-2012 09:16PM

Declan Lander wrote: »

I love Irish too, but what your missing is that anyone who is fluent in Irish or has a family background in it will choose it at leaving cert level, as it would be relatively easy for them. What your also missing is that quiting Irish only after studying it from age 4 to say 15, 11 years, is not exaclty making it die off. If Irish was taught properly like French or German, people should be quite fluent at it by that stage.

I have yet to meet someone who is fluent in German or French after doing it in school here. I agree Irish needs to be taught more in that way though, but they need to improve the way languages are taught here full stop imho.

Joe_Dull · 09-04-2012 09:17PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Do they actually examine Religion these days? If the only thing, as you seem to be implying, thats stopping the language dying is that its compulsory then its already dead.

They do indeed, it's meant to be an interesting syllabus and a fairly easy exam.

Well if it stops being taught it will die, yes. Less emphasis will be put on the language at primary and Junior Cert level if it becomes an optional "niche" subject, so demand for the Gaeltacht courses will dry up and they'll stop running, so even less young people will develop a love for Irish, so less adults will choose to soeak it at home, and it will die. The venom some posters are spitting on this thread is unsettling... As an amateur linguist I can't see how language death should be just allowed happen.

Declan Lander · 09-04-2012 09:19PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

I have yet to meet someone who is fluent in German or French after doing it in school here. I agree Irish needs to be taught more in that way though, but they need to improve the way languages are taught here full stop imho.

I've met a few, and thats after only 5 years of study, not like Irish which gets 11 years of study by junior cert.
Agreed there is room for improvement in the way languages are taught in Ireland, but especially in Irish, the current methods in that subject are dire, and suited to native speakers (i.e. it's treated like english is subject wise), rather than the majority of us who are non native speakers.

riclad · 09-04-2012 09:21PM

Well then religion must be dead in ireland and music, as far as i know you dont get points in the leaving for religion.Most people don,t do music as a leaving cert subject.I think at most maybe 60 percent of people are suitable for third level university courses,like chemistry ,law etc
You seem to assume everyone should go to uni.
People that love irish will still study and speak it,and there will still be gaelscoils.
I dont think we should base on whole society on the leaving cert points system.

Wilberto · 09-04-2012 09:28PM

Of course Irish should remain compulsory and the reasons why are, I'm sure, plain to see through out this whole thread, so I won't repeat them.

All I want to say is, out of all the people I know, I would say, as high as 8 or 9 out of 10 would love to be fluent in Irish. In other words, the want of the people to speak their native tongue is clearly visible for all to see. There just needs to be a proper platform in place to make people fluent.

My suggestion is to target college graduates/young adults. Should incentives be provided to take up a part time Irish course in college (evening courses obviously), then the idea would be for them to, after becoming fluent, use it in the home when raising their own kids.

I know it may be a very idealistic view but it was also one that was quite realistic during the Celtic Tiger period IMO, (i.e. when we had money). Of course, because we now no longer have any money and are now crippled with debt, it is, of course, highly unlikely that any investment will be made in this area.

Namlub · 09-04-2012 09:29PM

senordingdong wrote: »

No.
I wasn't very good at English so I opted not to make any effort with it.
Instead I went online to complain about it.

Btw, that was a typo in my previous post.
The point stands.

The point might stand, but it's just you using deliberate exaggeration and facetiousness instead of addressing any real issue.

And it's a bit disingenuous to put any opposition to compulsory (and that's not a typo) Irish down to lack of profiency at the language. I'm not too bad at it actually, but I still don't believe it should be compulsory

Mickeroo · 09-04-2012 09:30PM

Joe_Dull wrote: »

They do indeed, it's meant to be an interesting syllabus and a fairly easy exam.

Genuinely didn't know that!

Joe_Dull wrote: »

Well if it stops being taught it will die, yes. Less emphasis will be put on the language at primary and Junior Cert level if it becomes an optional "niche" subject, so demand for the Gaeltacht courses will dry up and they'll stop running, so even less young people will develop a love for Irish, so less adults will choose to speak it at home, and it will die. The venom some posters are spitting on this thread is unsettling... As an amateur linguist I can't see how language death should be just allowed happen.

I don't want the language to die out either. I think the majority of students can't speak Irish by the end of secondary school whether they studied it or not anyway which is the more pressing issue imho.

I think Wibbs made a good point earlier when they said the language would live on in the areas where its spoken as a first language regardless of what happens in the schools. I have no problem with it being comulsory as I said earlier in the thread I just think the way it's taught needs to be revamped.

I think it should be a compulsory subject but the actual exam should be optional i.e concentrate on getting people to speak it rather than just pressuring them to pass some poxy exam. If the students had to learn to speak it without the pressure of it standing towards their leaving cert and without the monotony of being forced to learn poems etc but actually just speaking it for the sake of it then it could work wonders for the language imho. They might even enjoy it!!

Just as a funny aside, all the fluent Irish speakers I know, apart from the few I know from Connemara, are all from the more affluent areas of Dublin, and thats a direct result of the summer camps afaik. I think that shows that speaking the language is considerably more valuable than having their heads stuck in a text book.

Joe_Dull · 09-04-2012 09:33PM

riclad wrote: »

Well then religion must be dead in ireland and music, as far as i know you dont get points in the leaving for religion.Most people don,t do music as a leaving cert subject.

As well as this being an utterly spurious equivalency, you do get points in the Leaving Cert for Religion if you choose to study and and most musical people do choose Music as a subject. This is all fairly irrelevant considering the monumental amount of work that Irish requires in comparison to those two subjects.

You seem to assume everyone should go to uni.

Yes, I do. Or if not university at least some form of third-level training.

People that love irish will still study and speak it,and there will still be gaelscoils.

In fact they won't, for the reasons I outlined above. If you seriously think someone who doesn't plan on even applying for third level will choose Higher Irish for their Leaving you have a screw loose...

I dont think we should base on whole society on the leaving cert points system.

Nor do I, but it's the system we have and as long as it continues to be then it is what we'll base our whole society on.

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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