Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

DDC1990

WillieFlynn wrote: »

Film studies, etc would be so much better than Peig (which thankfully is off the course).

Lots of my class mates to keep ourselves sane when studying Peig, ny making up our own versions of the story. That son didn't fall.... to the annoyance of our teacher

That sort of thing is exactly what is being introduced into teaching Irish at primary level.

Instead of Líon na Bearnaí and doing questions, its now focussed on Acting out scenes of a story. Writing letters to celebrities. Making a Menu as Gaeilge. Making your own ending for a story. Games like Hangman to improve spelling. All active, all encouraging the spoken language. You still have the old songs and poems and the children still love them. But its moved on from learn 3 verbs a night by writing them in the copy, or do 10 questions, where the children just found the sentence in the book and wrote that out.

H2UMrsRobinson

Traonach wrote: »

Perhaps you should have educated her in Britain, then you wouldn't have had a problem.

I don't seem to be the only one who has a problem with it, so that's not really the solution is it. I was only answering the OP with my experiences of the thread topic.

DDC1990

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

YOUR culture and heritage, not OURS. Also, many students will work their ****ing ass off doing different subjects, and for you to dismiss them as lazy is beyond arrogance. Expecially as you are a primary school teacher. Do you discriminate in the classroom in th same way?

Ok just one point on this. If you are in Ireland then you should have to conform to Irish culture (and I don't mean overspending, over drinking, and voting in terrible politicians). I mean if Irish is officially, by the Irish constitution, the National Language of the Country, then you make an attempt to learn some of the culture by learning the language and keeping it alive.

I never said that students don't work their ass off with other subjects. If you cannot grasp Irish, thats fine. If you try your best, and do as well as you are able to then thats grand. What I was responding to was a poster whos specifically told her children not to bother with Irish, because it is pointless and focus on their French/German. That pisses me off. Leave the children put equal effort into each subject. Don't belittle it because of a bad experience you had, or your own views on the subject. The children might love Irish, but if you keep telling them its a waste of time, and don't bother helping them with it, then they will not reach their potential, and that is sad for any subject.

If a child for whatever reason dismisses one subject completly, then they are lazy at that subject. If they do not try to overcome difficulties and just say "**** it, It's pointless anyway", then that to me is lazy. I understand for the Leaving especially putting more effort into some subjects then others, to get optimum points. However to ignore Irish, not for any rational reason, but "because no one speaks it here" is silly IMO.

You made reference to how I treat children in the classroom. If a child puts in effort and gets 6-10 then I will be happy with that child. If a child who is capable of getting 10-10 but doesn't bother with studying (or revising) and get 7-10 then I will feel that the child has been lazy that week. I do not discriminate at all in the classroom, no matter what I think personally of the children. Thats professionalism.

Stained Class

I think people should get real about this.

The whole thing is a gigantic waste of time effort & resources.

To what end?

Everybody speaking Irish. Why?

To please some people who like to use it as a hobby, or to qualify for a grant of some description?

To keep some Public Service Drone in an office (at our expence BTW), translating documents that no one will read?

Why?..Why? .Why?

If people want to learn it & speak it, let them. Go for it Babies!

In God's name please please please, don't force your hobby with all it's (enormous)attendant expences onto normal hardworking people of this country.

It doesn't matter to them however, what the vast & largely silent majority of the people of this Island want though.

Does it???????????

Thanks for reading.

paddyandy

Me poor aul' language choked by england and finally buried by imported media ...almost . We did the latter ourselves .Popular imported .

riclad

IT should be optional in secondary school, replace it with computer studys or another language ,its dead and a total waste of money.This country is borrowing 20billion a year, we cant afford to waste money, when you are in a hole,stop digging.
WE AND our children deserve a modern educational system, and stop this crap, spending millions translating every document into irish , is there some idiot in the civil service who cannot read english?But reads irish,The government is cutting services ,sacking special needs assistants,while spending billions on irish, its probably spoken by less than 1 percent of the population.
In my lifetime ,i,ve seen contraception ,and divorce become legal and avaidable,
i can remember the time when it was easier to buy hash or cocaine than to buy a pack of condoms.
this country can change ,if we want to.
LET IT be like french, if you want to learn it,its your choice.
For 99 per cent of people its of no value,apart from the points it gives
if you are going to university .
BECAUSE its a dead language ,people forget it as soon as they leave school.
WE are competing with countrys like taiwan ,the usa,
they do not spend 20 per cent of the education budget on a dead language.
IF this country is to survive the economic crisis ,
we need a modern syllabus weighted towards science ,engineering,
technology .
IN the last ten years we have become a multicultural society,
we no longer presume everyone is a catholic republican ,
so lets stop pretending every child has to speak irish.
I believe there would be more respect for the language ,because
you would have to positively choose to study it,
it wont be forced down your throat.
it should be like marriage ,its a choice, no one at least in ireland is forced to get married ,it you want it ,its your rational choice.
in this economic crisis ,its strange to spend billions on something
that has no economic value or return whatsoever .
ITS like folk music ,people will always play ,make music ,they dont
need to be paid by the government to do it.
KIDS are not stupid, they resent learning a subject which has no
relevance in the modern world,and will have little value re getting a job .
I reckon government spending can be cut by ten percent
by cutting waste ,or pointless projects , ie sell off tg4 ,
if a private company wants to broadcast in irish ,with no government
subsidy give the the franchise.

AND what do we get for billions spent,
99per cent of people leave school ,and just forget all about it.
ITS like the military ,or tsa industrial, complex in the usa,
thousands of people employed doing something ,which has little or no economic value or return,
ie tg4 and various irish language stations.
Imagine this return if this money was put into teaching modern subjects ,or just reducing government borrowing.
I Would like a study done on our secondary school system ,re subject matter, ,quality of teaching ,relevance to a modern economy
because i reckon it just average compared with many western countrys.
Maybe replace it with a class ,2 hours a week ,general irish culture,music,poetry,short storys.
when i went to school ,i just ignored it,put my effort into other subjects,i felt it was a joke, a waste of time.
IT S like poetry ,a tiny minority ,will love it and speak it, and good luck to them.
NOONE would suggest that our kids should spend 20 per cent of their time learning
18th century poetry.
IT,S like the decentralisation project to move government agencys to the country,
at some point the government realised,this is a waste of money ,futile ,they dropped it,
IT s time to drop irish,
ie make it another choice ,like german,french, if a child wants to study it ,it,ll still
be avaidable.
PEOPLE are angry in this country, they see massive waste in government,
while taxes go up,stealth taxes appear.
IF the government had the guts to save billions ,make irish non compulsory ,i think

the overall reaction would be positive.
They are already making cuts in the school budget, this would be a positive step
into the 21st century.

eoins23456

They should get rid of non examinable religion for the leaving cert and replace it with Irish. Have complete emphasis on speaking it. Forget all about the intense grammar sessions,learning poetry and an triail and all that. We should be able to have any everyday conversation in the language. Alot of people would like to be fluent,semi fluent or even have a bit more then a cupla focal. Just have two classes a week where oral proficiency can be achieved for those who want it. Dont have it as a compulsory subject. It ruins the appeal of the language completely.

Stained Class

riclad wrote: »

IT should be optional in secondary school, replace it with computer studys or another language ,its dead and a total waste of money.This country is borrowing 20billion a year, we cant afford to waste money, when you are in a hole,stop diging o government
subsidy give the the franchise.

True, but threre are unreasonable people out there & the Govt of the day pays heed to them.

Why?

I don't know.

But it has to be stopped in it's tracks now, or else our paymasters abroad will see us as the joke of the centuary.

CyberJuice

french was mandatory in my school,we had no choice but to do it.i always knew as soon as i left school i would never ever use it again and also that france would be on the bottom of my places to visit and even if i ever did go there english would be acceptable to use in restaurants and bars and such...

i would have prefered double irish classes if there was a choice rather then wasted time on french..


irish should be mandatory or alot of students wouldnt take it,then they might regret it when they reach mid twenties or 30s as i know i regret not remembering most of it or trying to use it outside of school

Namlub

CyberJuice wrote: »

french was mandatory in my school,we had no choice but to do it.i always knew as soon as i left school i would never ever use it again and also that france would be on the bottom of my places to visit and even if i ever did go there english would be acceptable to use in restaurants and bars and such...

i would have prefered double irish classes if there was a choice rather then wasted time on french..


irish should be mandatory or alot of students wouldnt take it,then they might regret it when they reach mid twenties or 30s as i know i regret not remembering most of it or trying to use it outside of school

As a justification, this argument will never make sense to me

lividduck

DDC1990 wrote: »

lividduck wrote: »

I have no problem with your opinion, and I can see hwere you are coming from.

I only have a problem with you attacking a quickly written piece, for its gramatical errors, instead of looking at its contents.

When I am in the classroom, I take more care and write everything carefully. I actually have (minor) dyslexia, something which I battled with throughout my life, but never made an issue of it. Do you think I shouldn't be a teacher because of my dyslexia. I have trouble with spelling, but I can write when I take care. On a forum like this when I am trying to put a point across quickly while watching the Masters, I will make spelling errors. I am a teacher, but that doesn't mean I have to be in "teacher mode" 24/7.

Now to your post, you say "How is forcing students to take the language helping the language". Making Irish compulsory, ensures every student in Ireland will get a certain level of education in our national language. If the course was change as I outlined, there would be more time for teachers to focus on teaching children to read, write and talk in Irish instead of learning some long drawn out play where nothing happens. I am fluent but found these poems and stories tedious. Spend the time teaching Vocabulary, Grammar and Sentence Structure. Then people would be able to speak the language and it would have less of a stigma attached to it.

To the people who come from abroad and say "Its not our heritage", think of it another way. If you go to Saudi Arabia, would you be able to parade yourself pissed through the streets on Paddy's Day till all hours of the morning. Would you be able to walk around in sleveless tops and high cut shorts as a woman?

You wouldn't, because their culture doesn't allow it. You should adhere to customs in the country that you live in. If the custom of the country is that you learn the national language, that hardly anyone speaks, then you must learn that language in school.

I don't understand why so many people would be happy to see a vital part of our culture die out. The language, when spoke well, is poetic. It is nothing to be ashamed of. Yet because of one generation's bad experience, it is seen as a nuisance and something to be ashamed of. You don't have to be a Green Wearing, IRA supporting, Gaa fan to like speaking Irish or support the language.

As I said, if it was taught properly from day one, then there would not be a problem with it come Leaving Cert.

Why do you refer to it as the national language, it is not the national language it is one of two national languages.
Compulsory irish has been a major issue for more than one generation, where you got the idea that it is only one generation that has serious issues with compulsory Irish is beyond me.
If you want to adhere to the customs of the country you live in then you would not be making people learn a language that less than 80,000 people out of 4.5 million speak ourside school on a daily basis.
By all means speak Irish if you wish to, but stop wasting hundreds of millions of euro trying to force our kids to learn a language few of use or see any use for.

BeerWolf

I didn't have to do Irish... \o/

lividduck

DDC1990 wrote: »

Ok just one point on this. If you are in Ireland then you should have to conform to Irish culture (and I don't mean overspending, over drinking, and voting in terrible politicians). I mean if Irish is officially, by the Irish constitution, the National Language of the Country, then you make an attempt to learn some of the culture by learning the language and keeping it alive.

I never said that students don't work their ass off with other subjects. If you cannot grasp Irish, thats fine. If you try your best, and do as well as you are able to then thats grand. What I was responding to was a poster whos specifically told her children not to bother with Irish, because it is pointless and focus on their French/German. That pisses me off. Leave the children put equal effort into each subject. Don't belittle it because of a bad experience you had, or your own views on the subject. The children might love Irish, but if you keep telling them its a waste of time, and don't bother helping them with it, then they will not reach their potential, and that is sad for any subject.

If a child for whatever reason dismisses one subject completly, then they are lazy at that subject. If they do not try to overcome difficulties and just say "**** it, It's pointless anyway", then that to me is lazy. I understand for the Leaving especially putting more effort into some subjects then others, to get optimum points. However to ignore Irish, not for any rational reason, but "because no one speaks it here" is silly IMO.

You made reference to how I treat children in the classroom. If a child puts in effort and gets 6-10 then I will be happy with that child. If a child who is capable of getting 10-10 but doesn't bother with studying (or revising) and get 7-10 then I will feel that the child has been lazy that week. I do not discriminate at all in the classroom, no matter what I think personally of the children. Thats professionalism.

It is not the national language, it is merely one of two national languages, and in this case it is the one spoken by hardly anyone.
Disgusted to know that you consider children "lazy" if they dont meet your expectations, ever occur to you that maybe a child might have issues that you are not aware of? Maybe they are not lazy maybe they are worried or distracted by family issues,illness etc,

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

DDC1990 wrote: »

I have no problem with your opinion, and I can see hwere you are coming from.

I only have a problem with you attacking a quickly written piece, for its gramatical errors, instead of looking at its contents.

When I am in the classroom, I take more care and write everything carefully. I actually have (minor) dyslexia, something which I battled with throughout my life, but never made an issue of it. Do you think I shouldn't be a teacher because of my dyslexia. I have trouble with spelling, but I can write when I take care. On a forum like this when I am trying to put a point across quickly while watching the Masters, I will make spelling errors. I am a teacher, but that doesn't mean I have to be in "teacher mode" 24/7.

I didn't. Others did. But thought and presentation in written language are more important when the subject is language.

Now to your post, you say "How is forcing students to take the language helping the language". Making Irish compulsory, ensures every student in Ireland will get a certain level of education in our national language. If the course was change as I outlined, there would be more time for teachers to focus on teaching children to read, write and talk in Irish instead of learning some long drawn out play where nothing happens. I am fluent but found these poems and stories tedious. Spend the time teaching Vocabulary, Grammar and Sentence Structure. Then people would be able to speak the language and it would have less of a stigma attached to it.

The general consensus is that Irish should still remain compulsary in primary school, but become optional in secondary or at the onset of the Leaving. By this stage, basic reading, writing and conversation should have been attained by the student.

So in fairness, you haven't really answered my question (which, equally in fairness, I didn't clarify enough) as to how stopping kids from doing the lanaguage for leaving cert helps either the language or the student.

To the people who come from abroad and say "Its not our heritage", think of it another way. If you go to Saudi Arabia, would you be able to parade yourself pissed through the streets on Paddy's Day till all hours of the morning. Would you be able to walk around in sleveless tops and high cut shorts as a woman?

Just for the record, I don't come from abroad, I moved here four years ago. Beyond that, you're not making a good arguement in favour of culture. You're presenting it as a very restrictive entity out of which people should feel oblighed to act, irresepctive of their individual feelings. Which is very much my expereicne growing up in Ireland.

You wouldn't, because their culture doesn't allow it. You should adhere to customs in the country that you live in. If the custom of the country is that you learn the national language, that hardly anyone speaks, then you must learn that language in school.

So we should do it becasue we're supposed to do it and not think about it in the process? Demotivational poster.

I don't understand why so many people would be happy to see a vital part of our culture die out. The language, when spoke well, is poetic. It is nothing to be ashamed of. Yet because of one generation's bad experience, it is seen as a nuisance and something to be ashamed of. You don't have to be a Green Wearing, IRA supporting, Gaa fan to like speaking Irish or support the language.

There's that our word again. You have to understand, not everyone relates to a cultural aspect simply because they were born in a certain location.

As I said, if it was taught properly from day one, then there would not be a problem with it come Leaving Cert.

Agreed, but people simply should have the choice to continue or not.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Ok just one point on this. If you are in Ireland then you should have to conform to Irish culture (and I don't mean overspending, over drinking, and voting in terrible politicians). I mean if Irish is officially, by the Irish constitution, the National Language of the Country, then you make an attempt to learn some of the culture by learning the language and keeping it alive.

Complete and utter bollox. "Conform"??!! **** that! I will never ****ing conform to ANY bull**** that tells me to. That just means switiching your brain off and do what your told. I really hope you don't teach your kids that the world is all about conforming. In Ireland, you are a FREE indivual living in a FREE country and part of that freedom is the freedom to disagree and to say no. Teach your kids THIS. Teach them HOW to think and not WHAT to think.

I never said that students don't work their ass off with other subjects. If you cannot grasp Irish, thats fine. If you try your best, and do as well as you are able to then thats grand. What I was responding to was a poster whos specifically told her children not to bother with Irish, because it is pointless and focus on their French/German. That pisses me off. Leave the children put equal effort into each subject. Don't belittle it because of a bad experience you had, or your own views on the subject. The children might love Irish, but if you keep telling them its a waste of time, and don't bother helping them with it, then they will not reach their potential, and that is sad for any subject.

Regardless of the parents' attitudes, you specifically to the langauge dying out because students were being lazy. It's the parents being lazy, not the students, and you can't force the paretns to do anything. Sorry, but again, it's a free country.

If a child for whatever reason dismisses one subject completly, then they are lazy at that subject. If they do not try to overcome difficulties and just say "**** it, It's pointless anyway", then that to me is lazy. I understand for the Leaving especially putting more effort into some subjects then others, to get optimum points. However to ignore Irish, not for any rational reason, but "because no one speaks it here" is silly IMO.

No, it's prioritizing. Which is a lifeskill.

You made reference to how I treat children in the classroom. If a child puts in effort and gets 6-10 then I will be happy with that child. If a child who is capable of getting 10-10 but doesn't bother with studying (or revising) and get 7-10 then I will feel that the child has been lazy that week. I do not discriminate at all in the classroom, no matter what I think personally of the children. Thats professionalism.

As long as you don't play favouritism with the kids who make more of an effort in Irish over the kids who make mroe of an effort over irish subjects.

Rabidlamb

I spent 14 years in school like most of you learning Irish.
I was a good student & got a good leaving cert followed by a good degree.
Outside a few pidgeon phrases I can't speak or understand a word of it.
What the hell went wrong ?

PK2008

Useless language in the real world-

....purely for romantics and people with misplaced insecurities around patriotism and heritage.

DB21

It really shouldn't be mandatory, but then, I feel the same way about LC English, and indeed any other language. Instead of wasting hours in language classes, that while I enjoyed, would be of no use to me, I could have been doing more Sciences.

riclad

IT wont die out,its like irish music ,irish will be spoken by people
who want to use it.Gaelscoils are still popular,its just the billions spent
on it can be saved or government spending reduced.
I believe if this economy is to survive ,we need a education system
which favors science ,maths,computer studys.Instead of 9 subjects ,reduce the leaving to 4 or 5, then you could pick subjects you are interested in,which might have some relevance to your future employment.
WE have to be honest, irish is almost dead as a spoken language.
Would the government force people to get married in a church ,just because we are a catholic country.no ,we have a choice.
I Think irish is like religion ,it should be not forced on people.
I,m not asking for it to be banned , just make it another choice in a range of subjects.
I,m sure poetry is a valuable cultural subject,
but i dont think every child should have to spend 20 per cent
of their school time learning it.

in terms of the economy its a very expensive waste of time.
The way we are heading now is ,we will lose our best young
people,thru emigration ,and i think this focus on irish is making
our economy weaker.

Wibbs

DDC1990 wrote:

Ok just one point on this. If you are in Ireland then you should have to conform to Irish culture

I do, by speaking English. Irish culture is an overwhelmingly English speaking one and has been for the guts of two centuries. Your argument might have held weight at one point but you better set your time machine for 1630.

I mean if Irish is officially, by the Irish constitution, the National Language of the Country, then you make an attempt to learn some of the culture by learning the language and keeping it alive.

One could have put klingon as the national language but it doesn't make it so just because you write it down as an "official" aspiration. God is all over the the constitution too, does this mean that in order to "conform" to Irish culture I better shuffle head bent and barefoot around some island on Lough Derg polishing rosary beads? Eh. No.

If the custom of the country is that you learn the national language, that hardly anyone speaks, then you must learn that language in school.

Good God sir can you not see the almost Swiftian farce of that argument?

DDC1990

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Regardless of the parents' attitudes, you specifically to the langauge dying out because students were being lazy. It's the parents being lazy, not the students, and you can't force the paretns to do anything. Sorry, but again, it's a free country.


No, it's prioritizing. Which is a lifeskill.


As long as you don't play favouritism with the kids who make more of an effort in Irish over the kids who make mroe of an effort over irish subjects.

You mightn't agree but in my opinion, Irish will die out because of Laziness on all sides. Laziness of people who have it, and don't use it because they aren't bothered, or are ashamed to use it. But also Laziness of those who have the ability to learn the language, and decide that they won't because of a preconcieved notion that the language is a pointless one.

I have no problem with a person who stuggles with linguistics, or just with Irish itself not being able to speak Irish well. Likewise I don't discriminate against people who are illiterate or innumerate, and cannot write in English or do Maths. As I said before, my gripe is against students who can learn it, who are able to learn it, who have 6 classes a week to learn it, and decide to sit back and waste the class because "Its a dead language anyway." I know some of you will agree with that sentiment and support people like that, but I don't.

Just on the point of it being our national language. According to Bunreacht na hÉireann (1937) Article 8. "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language." Paragraph 2 states: "The English language is recognized as a second official language".
That is why I refer to Gaeilge as our national language. I understand English is recognized as an official language also, but Gaeilge is the national language of the state. I know times have changed since 1937 and the language has waned since, but until it is changed in the Constitution, Gaeilge is still our national language.

I have a proposal. Why not change all the schools into Gaelscoileanna? Then the children learn through Irish from Day 1. They become nearly fluent by 3rd class. Every school in Ireland is doing it, so there are more children around speaking Irish, so they interact with each other in Irish. The language grows. It stops being a dead language and becomes the language used in homes, shops and businesses. Yes I know its a rediculous situation to imagine, but would you have major objections to this, and why?

I was educated in a Gaelscoil, and love the language. I didn't have anyone brainwash me into loving Gaeilge. We didn't have video's of the Black and Tans shooting up villages, to develop a hate for the Sasanaigh. It wa a happy healthy education, which lead to me becoming Bi-Lingual.

On the point of why children are "forced" to take Irish in secondary school, i'd make the point why is any subject compulsory in school? Why is English compulsory or Maths?
You hear students say "I will never use differenciation in my life" as well as "I will never speak Irish again in my life".

I know there will be people who work in Science or Mathematics, and they will use the complex Maths learned in Secondary school. However the majority of people will not use differenciation on a daily basis, or quadratic equasions.

Likewise, most people don't care about Keats, Shakespeare, Brian Friel etc. after Leaving Cert. Granted English scholars, and Writers will use it, but outside of that, who quotes Hamlet on a Daily basis?

You can make a case for every subject being optional, but the chances are that wouldn't be so good for the Irish Education system.

My thoughts on the situation are farther back in the thread. Course should be split in 2. One paper compulsory, so that all students learn enough Irish to use it effectively, and another for those who want to study the literature, poetry etc.

lividduck

DDC1990 wrote: »

You mightn't agree but in my opinion, Irish will die out because of Laziness on all sides. Laziness of people who have it, and don't use it because they aren't bothered, or are ashamed to use it. But also Laziness of those who have the ability to learn the language, and decide that they won't because of a preconcieved notion that the language is a pointless one.

I have no problem with a person who stuggles with linguistics, or just with Irish itself not being able to speak Irish well. Likewise I don't discriminate against people who are illiterate or innumerate, and cannot write in English or do Maths. As I said before, my gripe is against students who can learn it, who are able to learn it, who have 6 classes a week to learn it, and decide to sit back and waste the class because "Its a dead language anyway." I know some of you will agree with that sentiment and support people like that, but I don't.

Just on the point of it being our national language. According to Bunreacht na hÉireann (1937) Article 8. "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language." Paragraph 2 states: "The English language is recognized as a second official language".
That is why I refer to Gaeilge as our national language. I understand English is recognized as an official language also, but Gaeilge is the national language of the state. I know times have changed since 1937 and the language has waned since, but until it is changed in the Constitution, Gaeilge is still our national language.

I have a proposal. Why not change all the schools into Gaelscoileanna? Then the children learn through Irish from Day 1. They become nearly fluent by 3rd class. Every school in Ireland is doing it, so there are more children around speaking Irish, so they interact with each other in Irish. The language grows. It stops being a dead language and becomes the language used in homes, shops and businesses. Yes I know its a rediculous situation to imagine, but would you have major objections to this, and why?

I was educated in a Gaelscoil, and love the language. I didn't have anyone brainwash me into loving Gaeilge. We didn't have video's of the Black and Tans shooting up villages, to develop a hate for the Sasanaigh. It wa a happy healthy education, which lead to me becoming Bi-Lingual.

On the point of why children are "forced" to take Irish in secondary school, i'd make the point why is any subject compulsory in school? Why is English compulsory or Maths?
You hear students say "I will never use differenciation in my life" as well as "I will never speak Irish again in my life".

I know there will be people who work in Science or Mathematics, and they will use the complex Maths learned in Secondary school. However the majority of people will not use differenciation on a daily basis, or quadratic equasions.

Likewise, most people don't care about Keats, Shakespeare, Brian Friel etc. after Leaving Cert. Granted English scholars, and Writers will use it, but outside of that, who quotes Hamlet on a Daily basis?

You can make a case for every subject being optional, but the chances are that wouldn't be so good for the Irish Education system.

My thoughts on the situation are farther back in the thread. Course should be split in 2. One paper compulsory, so that all students learn enough Irish to use it effectively, and another for those who want to study the literature, poetry etc.

Irish is not THE official language it is one of two official languages which have equal standing.(if you are in any doubt just ask a lawyer friend)
Why in the name of sanity would we want to change our schools in gaelschools? What possible advantage would that have to us as a country?
I have a proposal, how about we let those who wish to speak Irish go ahead and speak it but lets stop spending up to €1 billion a year on a language that is dead to most of us and is spoken by less than 80,000 people outside of school, in a population of 4.5 million.
The Irish language is not part of my culture, my parents didn't speak it, nor my grandparents, nor to any worthwhile extent do my children.

DDC1990

lividduck wrote: »

Irish is not THE official language it is one of two official languages which have equal standing.(if you are in any doubt just ask a lawyer friend)
Why in the name of sanity would we want to change our schools in gaelschools? What possible advantage would that have to us as a country?
I have a proposal, how about we let those who wish to speak Irish go ahead and speak it but lets stop spending up to €1 billion a year on a language that is dead to most of us and is spoken by less than 80,000 people outside of school, in a population of 4.5 million.
The Irish language is not part of my culture, my parents didn't speak it, nor my grandparents, nor to any worthwhile extent do my children.

Official Languages = Irish and English
National Language = Irish

Source: The Irish Constitution: http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.pdf
Article 8

I understand it isn't your culture, but I consider it part of mine, as do many others.

What you are saying is akin to, well I don't use the Dole, so it should be abolished.
I have never been to a Hospital in Ireland so I think all funding towards Hospitals should be cut. Why not get the people who use the Hospitals to pay for their treatment, that is a fairer system. Wasting money on sick people, shur we all die in the end anyway.
You are suggesting that a service that doesn't cater to you is a waste of money.

You are suggesting cutting all funds for to Irish language, including TG4 and RnaG i presume. According to Wikipedia (the great bastion of Facts I know), TG4 has 800,000 viewers daily, so the interest in the Irish language is higher then the 80,000 that you quote.

WillieFlynn

I mean if Irish is officially, by the Irish constitution, the National Language of the Country, then you make an attempt to learn some of the culture by learning the language and keeping it alive.

You are referring to the constitution written in English and then translated into Irish........

lividduck

DDC1990 wrote: »

Official Languages = Irish and English
National Language = Irish

Source: The Irish Constitution: http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.pdf
Article 8

I understand it isn't your culture, but I consider it part of mine, as do many others.

What you are saying is akin to, well I don't use the Dole, so it should be abolished.
I have never been to a Hospital in Ireland so I think all funding towards Hospitals should be cut. Why not get the people who use the Hospitals to pay for their treatment, that is a fairer system. Wasting money on sick people, shur we all die in the end anyway.
You are suggesting that a service that doesn't cater to you is a waste of money.

You are suggesting cutting all funds for to Irish language, including TG4 and RnaG i presume. According to Wikipedia (the great bastion of Facts I know), TG4 has 800,000 viewers daily, so the interest in the Irish language is higher then the 80,000 that you quote.

The figures I quote are the official census figures.
The rest of your post is so purile and childish that it is undeserving of attention, other than to say that the de facto national language is of course English, the most widely spoken language in the country.

Lord TSC

Namlub wrote: »

As a justification, this argument will never make sense to me

It always makes me laugh tbh. It's self-defeating, yet forms the core of so many of the pro-compulsion's argument.
"We have to do it, or else no one will want to do it" only proves that if it wasn't forced on people, no one would miss it in a life-threatening way. It only shows that, despite what some argue, it's not as core to Irish culture and society as some would like to think...

WillieFlynn

DDC1990 wrote: »

Instead of Líon na Bearnaí and doing questions, its now focussed on Acting out scenes of a story. Writing letters to celebrities. Making a Menu as Gaeilge. Making your own ending for a story. Games like Hangman to improve spelling. All active, all encouraging the spoken language. ......

It is nice to see Irish taught as a living language, to be enjoyed, using modern teaching methods.

There is some hope for it now, if kids enjoy it, some of the negative attitudes towards Irish hopefully will go away over time.

DDC1990

lividduck wrote: »

The figures I quote are the official census figures.
The rest of your post is so purile and childish that it is undeserving of attention, other than to say that the de facto national language is of course English, the most widely spoken language in the country.

94,000 use it every day, 1.3 Million use it occasionally. 2011 Census.
Over 25% of the country find use for the language,

English is the de facto language, and I never argued that.

But to say that Irish is a waste of money because you don't speak it, is such an insular notion to the point of being selfish.

Why put any stock into any part of Irish culture. Why support the upkeap of Irish Castles, Newgrange, Rock of Cashel. Im sure Millions are being spent on these Heritage Sites, for no reason other then the fact that they are part of our culture. Would you support leaving those sites go into ruin, as they would if the government cut funding.

You have selected one aspect of Irish life that you do not support personally, and chose to call it a waste of money. Its not ok to let people die through lack of Government funding, but it is ok to let a Language, which has survived thousands of years die.

Ireland isn't in the Shít because of Irish, why should the language now suffer because of financial difficulties caused by other aspects of Irish society?

Anyway, on that point I am out. I appreciate that I am in the minority. I understand and can see where the opposition are coming from in the most part. I appreciate the language, and don't want to be part of the generation that let the language die. This language has outlasted wars, famines, countless recessions and hard times. It survived being outlawed, and severe punishment for its use.

Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam - A country without a language is a country without a Soul.

Is oth liom a rá go bhfuil anam na hÉireann imithe leis na mbliainta.

Jester252

Your right irish didn't cause the problem but education and social welfare didn't cause the problem and they have taken a hit in funding. You can't say that people that speek Irish get better treatment in the education system from bounse points in the LC to extra funding at 3rd level. I think that a person after junior level knows what type of eduction they what so they should be able to pick what they what to study. To get into NUIs you need three languages min. The LC is very bias towards student who are better at languages (dont get me started on the fact that any EU language requested by a student gets a paper)
If Irish was to remain mandatory biology should be also made mandatory aswell. I think Ireland needs more people with a background in science then a rarely spoken language. Lets face it few job need Irish.

DDC1990

Jester252 wrote: »

Your right irish didn't cause the problem but education and social welfare didn't cause the problem and they have taken a hit in funding. You can't say that people that speek Irish get better treatment in the education system from bounse points in the LC to extra funding at 3rd level. I think that a person after junior level knows what type of eduction they what so they should be able to pick what they what to study. To get into NUIs you need three languages min. The LC is very bias towards student who are better at languages (dont get me started on the fact that any EU language requested by a student gets a paper)
If Irish was to remain mandatory biology should be also made mandatory aswell. I think Ireland needs more people with a background in science then a rarely spoken language. Lets face it few job need Irish.

I know is said I was out, but I'll respond to this.

I actually think the opposite. If you are Mathematically inclined there are plenty of options.

Maths, Applied Maths, Physics and Chemistry are all easy if you have a good maths brain.

I don't agree with the colleges requiring 3 languages. I know a lot of people who had no interest in French, but did it anyway because they wanted to get into NUIG. They were then required to take Applied Maths outside of school to compensate for this. That isn't fair.

I agree that every sector of the economy will take a hit, but through reducing social welfare, the dole will not die out.

I would agree with some reductions, but not to the extent of abolishing TG4, which provides brilliant service, or RnaG which people in the Gaeltacht rely on for their local news. Im not an economist so i'm not sure what you coud cut from the funding of the Irish language, but to stop all funding as the majority are suggesting would be a travisty.

Jester252

But only one of them is a must do and in most schools they are on at the same time.