Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Cú Giobach

lividduck wrote: »

BIG NEWS...We had a census in 2011, so why are you quoting out of date stats?
2011 Census:
Most spoken language? English
Next most spoken language? Polish
Next most spoken language? Irish (approx 79,000 speak it outside of school).
Now , fairs fair people are entitled to speak Irish, no problem.

Bigger news, The census results weren't out when I originally posted.
You really are bad at this aren't you.

My issue is that it should not be compulsory in schools

Well good for you.

lividduck

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Bigger news, The census results weren't out when I originally posted.
You really are bad at this aren't you.

Well good for you.

Gú,
I know that we share different views regarding the Irish language, and that we have both managed to rile each other in the past and I accept I had a large part to play in that.
I really would like to be able to make my point, express my opinion and indeed listen to yours without any rancour.
Is it possible that we could both just debate the issue without it getting personal and one or both of us ending up in the soup with the mods again?:)

Cú Giobach

lividduck wrote: »

Gú,
I know that we share different views regarding the Irish language, and that we have both managed to rile each other in the past and I accept I had a large part to play in that.
I really would like to be able to make my point, express my opinion and indeed listen to yours without any rancour.
Is it possible that we could both just debate the issue without it getting personal and one or both of us ending up in the soup with the mods again?:)

Debate what issue, lividfuck?

lividduck

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Debate what issue?

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one
the same issue most people on the thread are debating, or at least supposed to be.

Cú Giobach

lividduck wrote: »

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one
the same issue most people on the thread are debating, or at least supposed to be.

But wouldn't you be better off debating with someone who is in favour of it, instead of someone who isn't bothered either way?
That would seem the logical thing to do.

lividduck

Cú Giobach wrote: »

But wouldn't you be better off debating with someone who is in favour of it, instead of someone who isn't bothered either way?
That would seem the logical thing to do.

Fair enough.

lividduck

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Debate what issue, lividfuck?

Any particular reason that you felt it necessary to insult me by calling me livid****?

dr.bollocko

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Debate what issue, lividfuck?

Banned.

WillieFlynn

DDC1990 wrote: »

Wait... why?

The exam in History, Chemistry etc., is meant to test your knowledge of the subject and not which language you did it through.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Often, there was no Textbook in Irish, so I had to learn everything through English, and then translate it to Irish. There is extra effort involved, and a reward for the extra effort is a miniscule percentage rise, depending on your overall mark. Its not as if I was at a C grade, and because I did it through Irish I got A's. It only makes a difference if you are right on the edge of one grade.

That is an argument for fixing the lack of books and materials, etc., available in Irish, rather than undermining the whole validity of the leaving cert and the CAO points system.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Irish cannot be made compulsary. If it is, even in Secondary school, students will not take it. They will have their parents telling them its a pointless subject. They will have bad memories of Pages and Pages of Grammer questions and some terrible stories in Primary school.

I don't mind students having to do it as far as junior cert, but for the leaving cert that is a different matter.

DDC1990 wrote: »

The language is part of our culture and heritage. I for one would hate to see that die out, because our students are too lazy to get their head down and try with a subject because of their parent's attitude towards the language.

I also would hate to see Irish die out.

When I was doing the leaving cert. I didn't want to do Irish, however the reason wasn't that I was lazy or hated the language.
Having to do Irish in school forced me to do nine subjects for the leaving cert. The work load got so high that towards the end I would have to just tell the teacher I didn't have time to do my homework or study it. I felt bad having to do this and it also was a little disruptive to the class.

DDC1990 wrote: »

What use is that? You might think that it is useful to have a decent knowledge of European languages, but You do not get that coming out of school. Try and have a simple conversation in French or German with someone who spent 5/6 years in school "studying". The majority won't have a clue.

I agree, some would starve if you dropped them into those countries.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Im a primary school teacher, and through college we learned many ways to make Irish interesting for Children. If these methods make it into mainstream teaching then there is hope for Gaeilge yet.

I think that the problem isn't in general with the teachers but with the what they are asked to teach. A good start would be to split the subject in two, the Irish language and as separate one for literature.

Having two exam papers in Irish, maths, discourages people when compared to most subjects which only have one paper in the leaving.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Anyway. Long story short, question my Leaving Cert results all you want, they don't matter a fúck once you enter college.

I agree that after college no one cares about the leaving cert again.

However what annoys me most, is that the difference between getting in to a particular course or not. In some cases could be down to which language you answered the leaving in, rather than the knowledge of each subject.

WillieFlynn

lividduck wrote: »

Thats all, it's my opinion, I see Irish at best as a hobby language of the few and at worst in all practical terms a dead language.

I think that calling it a hobby language is a little harsh, as it is the first language for a small minority of people.

I also find it strange that only one of the native languages of Ireland is promoted and the other two pretty much ignored (Irish sign language and gammon / cant).

Lord TSC

WillieFlynn wrote: »

I also find it strange that only one of the native languages of Ireland is promoted and the other two pretty much ignored (Irish sign language and gammon / cant).

People pick and choose what aspects of history are important and should be preserved, and ignore the things which don't suit them. For example, I highly doubt any of the pro-compulsion people would be pro-living in mudhuts or any other aspects of Irish culture we've moved on from because their uses became obsolete by modern culture. It's being pro-history to a degree. We all want to perserve culture but everyone has different cut off levels.

Some people want to save the Irish language and make it compulsory in school, but thats the extent of Irish history they want to keep. Others see it as another aspect of Irish culture which has become redundant in the modern day and want to focus on more "important" aspects of living.

WillieFlynn

DDC1990 wrote: »

Im a primary school teacher, and through college we learned many ways to make Irish interesting for Children. If these methods make it into mainstream teaching then there is hope for Gaeilge yet.

I hope you are right, it would be nice to see people have a good experience and want to learn Irish, rather than being forced to.

DDC1990

WillieFlynn wrote: »

I think that the problem isn't in general with the teachers but with the what they are asked to teach. A good start would be to split the subject in two, the Irish language and as separate one for literature.

You make some very valid points, but this one is the most important one.

Irish should be split into a basic course, with Gramadach, Aistí, Léamhthusicint, Béal Trial and Cluasthuiscint. Every student should have to
do this, so they get a basic working knowledge of the Language.

Then there should be an optional course with Litríocht na Gaeilge, Dánta, Stair na Gaeilge. They should also have a Film Studies part, and some other more modern aspects, that would appeal to students.

Also, teachers are the problem. This idea that writing out a question for your students as Gaeilge, and getting them to learn it off by heart, is somehow teaching Irish is a joke.

PK2008

When you go to the ATM and it asks you 'Gaeilge' or English, which one do you pick?





....nuff said

DDC1990

lividduck wrote: »

Personally I am glad you dont teach my kids as your grasp of basic english spelling, grammar, and comprehension are abysimal. I'm not trying to be a grammar nazi, but when someone who writes like a semi-illiterate drunk claims to be a primary school teacher I think it is valid to question the voracity of their post.

*Don't
*English
*abysmal
*Nazi


C+ Must try harder.



You didn't address one point in my post, but decided to be a smart arse. Fine if you don't agree with me, but to be honest I couldn't give a flying lividduck whether you question the voracity of my post, or what you think of my grammar.

DDC1990

PK2008 wrote: »

When you go to the ATM and it asks you 'Gaeilge' or English, which one do you pick?





....nuff said

I pick Gaeilge.

My drivers license is as Gaeilge.
My ESB bill is as Gaeilge.

I use Irish whenever I can.

I understand that i'm in the minority, and I wouldn't expect anyone to change their ways. I'm just glad to have a choice.

Declan Lander

angry kitten wrote: »

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Yes.

Firstly it should be taught more like German or French, then far more people would be able to speak it.

Secondly, it should be optional after the Junior cert.

BrokenArrows

It should be mandatory up to junior cert level but it should not be a requirement for the leaving certificate.

If it is a requirement for the leaving cert then universities should accept it as a foreign language.

WillieFlynn

DDC1990 wrote: »

Irish should be split into a basic course, with Gramadach, Aistí, Léamhthusicint, Béal Trial and Cluasthuiscint. Every student should have to
do this, so they get a basic working knowledge of the Language.

I very much agree..... My basic level wasn't good enough, when literature (which was beyond my language ability) was introduced.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Then there should be an optional course with Litríocht na Gaeilge, Dánta, Stair na Gaeilge. They should also have a Film Studies part, and some other more modern aspects, that would appeal to students.

Film studies, etc would be so much better than Peig (which thankfully is off the course).

Lots of my class mates to keep ourselves sane when studying Peig, ny making up our own versions of the story. That son didn't fall.... to the annoyance of our teacher

DDC1990 wrote: »

Also, teachers are the problem. This idea that writing out a question for your students as Gaeilge, and getting them to learn it off by heart, is somehow teaching Irish is a joke.

hmmm.... that along with trying to learn poems off by heart.....

Our teacher was quite good at trying to see if we were reading the poetry rather than saying it by memory. So some of the tricks people used, were to write it on the black board she would come in and sit down with out looking at it, stick it to her desk when she wasn't looking or the back of the person in front of you, etc....

The thing which made me despair was the spelling book, where there were obvious attempts to force mangled English worlds into Irish, e.g. Pá for pay rather than íoc, and a few others I forgotten now.


When I left school I thought I wasn't any good at learning language, after my experiences with Irish and French. But then I learned Irish Sign Language, to a level where comfortably keep up and join in conversations with groups of native signers, in a fraction of the time. Possibly the fact that there wasn't a written form of the language at the time, may have helped.

lividduck

DDC1990 wrote: »

Wait... why?

I did my Leaving Cert through Irish.

Im not from a Gaeltacht, but I went to a Gaelscoil Primary and Secondary.

I did Maths, Geography, French, History, Chemistry all As Gaeilge.

Often, there was no Textbook in Irish, so I had to learn everything through English, and then translate it to Irish. There is extra effort involved, and a reward for the extra effort is a miniscule percentage rise, depending on your overall mark. Its not as if I was at a C grade, and because I did it through Irish I got A's. It only makes a difference if you are right on the edge of one grade.

Irish cannot be made compulsary. If it is, even in Secondary school, students will not take it. They will have their parents telling them its a pointless subject. They will have bad memories of Pages and Pages of Grammer questions and some terrible stories in Primary school.

The language is part of our culture and heritage. I for one would hate to see that die out, because our students are too lazy to get their head down and try with a subject because of their parent's attitude towards the language. One poster here ludacrisly claimed that he/she told their children not to bother working too hard on the Irish, and focus on the French/German.

What use is that? You might think that it is useful to have a decent knowledge of European languages, but You do not get that coming out of school. Try and have a simple conversation in French or German with someone who spent 5/6 years in school "studying". The majority won't have a clue.

Im a primary school teacher, and through college we learned many ways to make Irish interesting for Children. If these methods make it into mainstream teaching then there is hope for Gaeilge yet.
What is interesting is that the Children from outside Ireland are actually far far better then the Irish children at the Irish, because they have no stigma attached to the language from their parents. They are just learning another language, another subject at school. And they are great at it. They also have more then one language already, so it is easier for them to learn a new language.

Anyway. Long story short, question my Leaving Cert results all you want, they don't matter a fúck once you enter college.

Take a quick look at the bold and italicisied text, basic grammar, spelling, and comprehension, I'm not the one claiming to be a qualified primary school teacher, but if I found out that a semi-illiterate like you was teaching my children I would sue the school for negligence. As to your claim that it cannot be made compulsory, it already ffing is compulsory!

lividduck

DDC1990 wrote: »

I pick Gaeilge.

My drivers license is as Gaeilge.
My ESB bill is as Gaeilge.

I use Irish whenever I can.

I understand that i'm in the minority, and I wouldn't expect anyone to change their ways. I'm just glad to have a choice.

I have no problem with anyone using Irish whenever they can ie. when they meet any of the 1.8% of the population who use Irish outside of school on a daily basis.
I do, however, have a major problem with paying higher taxes and bills ,so that these 1.8% of the population can have every bloody document that might concievably affect their lives translated into Irish, that and the compulsory teaching of Irish costs us, the 97.2% of taxpayers who dont speak the language up to €1 billion a year.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Your inaccuracies regarding written English have already been pointed out, so I'll ignore those, but...

DDC1990 wrote: »

Wait... why?

I did my Leaving Cert through Irish.

Im not from a Gaeltacht, but I went to a Gaelscoil Primary and Secondary.

I did Maths, Geography, French, History, Chemistry all As Gaeilge.

Often, there was no Textbook in Irish, so I had to learn everything through English, and then translate it to Irish. There is extra effort involved, and a reward for the extra effort is a miniscule percentage rise, depending on your overall mark. Its not as if I was at a C grade, and because I did it through Irish I got A's. It only makes a difference if you are right on the edge of one grade.

Just because you choose to do something in a more difficult way, should not entitle you to extra marks. If you get the same grade as someone else, it means that you have the same amount of information in your head as that person, relevant to that subject. Unless the subject is Irish, there is no reason why you should have extra entitlements.

Irish cannot be made compulsary. If it is, even in Secondary school, students will not take it. They will have their parents telling them its a pointless subject. They will have bad memories of Pages and Pages of Grammer questions and some terrible stories in Primary school.

I presume you meant to write "Irisn cannot be made optional."

That said, if you think that students will not take it given the choice, what does this tell you about the subject?

Also (and you're at least the fourth person I'm asking this to) how is forcing the student to take the langauge helping either the student or helping the language?

The language is part of our culture and heritage. I for one would hate to see that die out, because our students are too lazy to get their head down and try with a subject because of their parent's attitude towards the language. One poster here ludacrisly claimed that he/she told their children not to bother working too hard on the Irish, and focus on the French/German.

YOUR culture and heritage, not OURS. Also, many students will work their ****ing ass off doing different subjects, and for you to dismiss them as lazy is beyond arrogance. Expecially as you are a primary school teacher. Do you discriminate in the classroom in th same way?

What use is that? You might think that it is useful to have a decent knowledge of European languages, but You do not get that coming out of school. Try and have a simple conversation in French or German with someone who spent 5/6 years in school "studying". The majority won't have a clue.

But they'll have the basics and can carry on their studies by going to these coutnries if they wish, just as those wishing to do Irish can.

Im a primary school teacher, and through college we learned many ways to make Irish interesting for Children. If these methods make it into mainstream teaching then there is hope for Gaeilge yet.
What is interesting is that the Children from outside Ireland are actually far far better then the Irish children at the Irish, because they have no stigma attached to the language from their parents. They are just learning another language, another subject at school. And they are great at it. They also have more then one language already, so it is easier for them to learn a new language.

Fair enough and probablty correct. I would wonder if the reasons are different to the ones you satate, but that's hypothetical.

lividduck

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Your inaccuracies regarding written English have already been pointed out, so I'll ignore those, but...



Just because you choose to do something in a more difficult way, should not entitle you to extra marks. If you get the same grade as someone else, it means that you have the same amount of information in your head as that person, relevant to that subject. Unless the subject is Irish, there is no reason why you should have extra entitlements.



I presume you meant to write "Irisn cannot be made optional."

That said, if you think that students will not take it given the choice, what does this tell you about the subject?

Also (and you're at least the fourth person I'm asking this to) how is forcing the student to take the langauge helping either the student or helping the language?

The language is part of our culture and heritage. I for one would hate to see that die out, because our students are too lazy to get their head down and try with a subject because of their parent's attitude towards the language. One poster here ludacrisly claimed that he/she told their children not to bother working too hard on the Irish, and focus on the French/German.

YOUR culture and heritage, not OURS. Also, many students will work their ****ing ass off doing different subjects, and for you to dismiss them as lazy is beyond arrogance. Expecially as you are a primary school teacher. Do you discriminate in the classroom in th same way?



But they'll have the basics and can carry on their studies by going to these coutnries if they wish, just as those wishing to do Irish can.



Fair enough and probablty correct. I would wonder if the reasons are different to the ones you satate, but that's hypothetical.

Well put Ikky, but methinks you might be wasting you time putting up arguments based upon common sense against this this type of poster

H2UMrsRobinson

My daughter who is British by birth has been the victim of this ridiculous legislation throughout her schooling, we moved here just before she was 10 and as a result it was compulsory she learned Irish in school, she was even put into a lower age group class so that her "Irish wouldn't suffer" as a result. She hates the subject with a passion. And I was no help to her with homework/reading etc. In secondary school because she's quite good at other subjects they assumed she should do Higher Level Irish, we've had a constant battle with the school to let her do it at Ordinary Level so she can focus on her other subjects and not get stressed out by the Irish class. Not every student in Ireland is Irish, by all means educate them but don't suffocate them. As a result of all this, my daughter will now be approaching 20 when she leaves school. Nice one !

P.s I tried putting "nice one" "what a joke" and "how pathetic"into google translate and it came back with..."nice one, cad a joke, and conas a pathetic - either google has only done ordinary level or it's not a complete language - which makes even more of a mockery of it all !

TheBegotten

The best thing they could do for Irish in this country is to outlaw it. For the simple reason that the 1.8% who do use it where possible will suddenly become passionate and begin to teach others. Parents will teach their children as a means of passing on the revolution to their children and defying the establishment. Furthermore, most left-wing nutters (mise) will write their texts and manifests in Irish, along with graffiti.
The basis of this argument is the Penal Laws. They hardly stomped out catholicism. It reduced it to the flint-core of priests and made it grow up around the secretive, community based services. The same idea would apply here.

P.s I tried putting "nice one" "what a joke" and "how pathetic"into google translate and it came back with..."nice one, cad a joke, and conas a pathetic - either google has only done ordinary level or it's not a complete language - which makes even more of a mockery of it all !

Irish is a poetic language, it's incredibly difficult to get a literal translation, especially from a database of words. It's like trying to ask a toddler to do maths.

Traonach

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

My daughter who is British by birth has been the victim of this ridiculous legislation throughout her schooling, we moved here just before she was 10 and as a result it was compulsory she learned Irish in school, she was even put into a lower age group class so that her "Irish wouldn't suffer" as a result. She hates the subject with a passion. And I was no help to her with homework/reading etc. In secondary school because she's quite good at other subjects they assumed she should do Higher Level Irish, we've had a constant battle with the school to let her do it at Ordinary Level so she can focus on her other subjects and not get stressed out by the Irish class. Not every student in Ireland is Irish, by all means educate them but don't suffocate them. As a result of all this, my daughter will now be approaching 20 when she leaves school. Nice one !

P.s I tried putting "nice one" "what a joke" and "how pathetic"into google translate and it came back with..."nice one, cad a joke, and conas a pathetic - either google has only done ordinary level or it's not a complete language - which makes even more of a mockery of it all !

Perhaps you should have educated her in Britain, then you wouldn't have had a problem.

WillieFlynn

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

In secondary school because she's quite good at other subjects they assumed she should do Higher Level Irish, we've had a constant battle with the school to let her do it at Ordinary Level so she can focus on her other subjects and not get stressed out by the Irish class

What you are seeing is a bigger problem with many secondary schools in Ireland. They stream you for all subjects base on a few, rather than how good you are at each.

My parents sent me to a fee paying school so that I could avoid this situation.

DDC1990

lividduck wrote: »

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Your inaccuracies regarding written English have already been pointed out, so I'll ignore those, but...



Just because you choose to do something in a more difficult way, should not entitle you to extra marks. If you get the same grade as someone else, it means that you have the same amount of information in your head as that person, relevant to that subject. Unless the subject is Irish, there is no reason why you should have extra entitlements.



I presume you meant to write "Irisn cannot be made optional."

That said, if you think that students will not take it given the choice, what does this tell you about the subject?

Also (and you're at least the fourth person I'm asking this to) how is forcing the student to take the langauge helping either the student or helping the language?


Well put Ikky, but methinks you might be wasting you time putting up arguments based upon common sense against this this type of poster

I have no problem with your opinion, and I can see hwere you are coming from.

I only have a problem with you attacking a quickly written piece, for its gramatical errors, instead of looking at its contents.

When I am in the classroom, I take more care and write everything carefully. I actually have (minor) dyslexia, something which I battled with throughout my life, but never made an issue of it. Do you think I shouldn't be a teacher because of my dyslexia. I have trouble with spelling, but I can write when I take care. On a forum like this when I am trying to put a point across quickly while watching the Masters, I will make spelling errors. I am a teacher, but that doesn't mean I have to be in "teacher mode" 24/7.

Now to your post, you say "How is forcing students to take the language helping the language". Making Irish compulsory, ensures every student in Ireland will get a certain level of education in our national language. If the course was change as I outlined, there would be more time for teachers to focus on teaching children to read, write and talk in Irish instead of learning some long drawn out play where nothing happens. I am fluent but found these poems and stories tedious. Spend the time teaching Vocabulary, Grammar and Sentence Structure. Then people would be able to speak the language and it would have less of a stigma attached to it.

To the people who come from abroad and say "Its not our heritage", think of it another way. If you go to Saudi Arabia, would you be able to parade yourself pissed through the streets on Paddy's Day till all hours of the morning. Would you be able to walk around in sleveless tops and high cut shorts as a woman?

You wouldn't, because their culture doesn't allow it. You should adhere to customs in the country that you live in. If the custom of the country is that you learn the national language, that hardly anyone speaks, then you must learn that language in school.

I don't understand why so many people would be happy to see a vital part of our culture die out. The language, when spoke well, is poetic. It is nothing to be ashamed of. Yet because of one generation's bad experience, it is seen as a nuisance and something to be ashamed of. You don't have to be a Green Wearing, IRA supporting, Gaa fan to like speaking Irish or support the language.

As I said, if it was taught properly from day one, then there would not be a problem with it come Leaving Cert.

Wibbs

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

P.s I tried putting "nice one" "what a joke" and "how pathetic"into google translate and it came back with..."nice one, cad a joke, and conas a pathetic - either google has only done ordinary level or it's not a complete language - which makes even more of a mockery of it all !

Not quite. Google is hardly a linguist. Yet. As TheBegotten said literal translations are going to be hard for examples you gave. The reverse results would be similar if a native Irish speaker tried the same thing.

Some of what you may be seeing is with some of the new Irish speakers that have made it a pidgin language. Irish most certainly has those words/concepts. Older versions of the language even moreso. There was a time in history when some of the greatest thinkers of the European post classical world were Irish and spoke, dreamed and even wrote in Irish. And did so about some heavy duty philosophical stuff. It was a language of higher learning and erudition pretty much until 1700. After that it contracted to a less studious language. Even so it's a complex language, with the ability to transmit highly complex things.

H2UMrsRobinson

TheBegotten wrote: »

Irish is a poetic language, it's incredibly difficult to get a literal translation, especially from a database of words. It's like trying to ask a toddler to do maths.

I figured that might be the problem, it did try I suppose. It's just frustrating to see it being forced upon my daughter. I definitely think it should be taught as an option i.e French, German, Spanish, Italian or Irish - pick your favourite two, Or an Irish Culture, History and Language class would be better but only to Junior Cert level.