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Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one
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The Equal Status Act stemmed from a need to ensure civil rights for people in Gaeltacht communities. It is not in existence to merely promote a hobby. Calling the language useless or dying is disrespectful to a culture that is indigenous to this island. It doesn't exist anywhere else and hence needs to be protected. I feel similarly about Catalan and Briton.
I understand that for many Irish people, the Irish language is not part of their culture but it is important not to underestimate its importance to other Irish people. Even for many who speak it little, the want to revive it is what matters. The naysayers are actually in the minority, so that argument is not valid. (See MRBI poll 2010; 65% of 15-24 year olds in favour of retaining Irish as compulsory to Leaving Cert). Although frankly I wouldn't agree with Spanish people who made remarks about Catalan inspite of them being a minority.
The percentage of people with a European language is much higher in the Irish speaking community than it is in the non-Irish speaking community (I couldn't find the exact percentage on-line but I think it was a substantial difference). In my opinion, having a healthy respect for native culture is a mind-set that tends to pair well with having respect for other cultures. I don't think you can blame Irish for any shortfalls in students knowledge of French or Scientific subjects for that matter. Students that do honours Irish, as you might expect, tend to do honours Maths as well.
I would ask people who make disparaging remarks about the place of this language on our island to remember that for some this is their culture. This is what they understand to be "Irish". Why should they be made to feel like foreigners in their own country? They have done no harm to you and are not attacking you. Please research the percentage of expenditure on the English speaking community and compare it with what is spent on the Irish speaking community, take population percentages into account... you'll still see a massive inequality, and not one that will support your argument. Having respect for a minority culture does not infer that by not speaking Irish you are less Irish, it just means you're not a bigot.
Sorry if I seem to be talking to myself... too many posts to respond to at once... Evocative stuff!
Hey, maybe we just need another partition? Can we have Galway? I like the bay...
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The Equal Status Act stemmed from a need to ensure civil rights for people in Gaeltacht communities. It is not in existence to merely promote a hobby. Calling the language useless or dying is disrespectful to a culture that is indigenous to this island. It doesn't exist anywhere else and hence needs to be protected. I feel similarly about Catalan and Briton.
I understand that for many Irish people, the Irish language is not part of their culture but it is important not to underestimate its importance to other Irish people. Even for many who speak it little, the want to revive it is what matters. The naysayers are actually in the minority, so that argument is not valid. (See MRBI poll 2010; 65% of 15-24 year olds in favour of retaining Irish as compulsory to Leaving Cert). Although frankly I wouldn't agree with Spanish people who made remarks about Catalan inspite of them being a minority.
The percentage of people with a European language is much higher in the Irish speaking community than it is in the non-Irish speaking community (I couldn't find the exact percentage on-line but I think it was a substantial difference). In my opinion, having a healthy respect for native culture is a mind-set that tends to pair well with having respect for other cultures. I don't think you can blame Irish for any shortfalls in students knowledge of French or Scientific subjects for that matter. Students that do honours Irish, as you might expect, tend to do honours Maths as well.
I would ask people who make disparaging remarks about the place of this language on our island to remember that for some this is their culture. This is what they understand to be "Irish". Why should they be made to feel like foreigners in their own country? They have done no harm to you and are not attacking you. Please research the percentage of expenditure on the English speaking community and compare it with what is spent on the Irish speaking community, take population percentages into account... you'll still see a massive inequality, and not one that will support your argument. Having respect for a minority culture does not infer that by not speaking Irish you are less Irish, it just means you're not a bigot.
Sorry if I seem to be talking to myself... too many posts to respond to at once... Evocative stuff!
The thing to remember here that the majority of us are simply being rational and saying let the kid decide for him or herself. What's wrong with choice?
The oes saying kill the language and let it die are both extremist and ignorant and not worthy of your time.Hey, maybe we just need another partition? Can we have Galway? I like the bay...
No. You can have Mayo, though. Please take Mayo.Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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I don't understand why Catalan is brought up in these debates. It's in zero danger of dying out. Over twice the population of Ireland can speak it. It's a language of daily life, employment, higher education and mass media. What's chalk and cheese as Gaelige?
That argument can go both ways. In fact it's more often you get the vibe that Irish people who don't speak the language are the "foreigners". Hence the veiled or overt calls of West Brit. You'll hear that far more than any claims that Irish speakers aren't Irish.Ms.M wrote:Why should they be made to feel like foreigners in their own country?Hey, maybe we just need another partition? Can we have Galway? I like the bay... I'm with ya. I'll get started on the Pale. Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.
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I don't understand why Catalan is brought up in these debates. It's in zero danger of dying out. Over twice the population of Ireland can speak it. It's a language of daily life, employment, higher education and mass media. What's chalk and cheese as Gaelige?
Sorry, maybe Catalan isn't an ideal argument. And not even an original one apparently. Thought I was being quite clever. Hebrew was more 'dead' than Irish (though that's a highly reductive term) and now it's a National language. Stephen Fry speaks about the decline of minority languages as "lingocide". I quite like that. I don't think something being in danger of dying out is a reason to abandon it. I'm too sleepy to read back over your posts so I don't know if that's what you're advocating, apologies if it's not.
That argument can go both ways. In fact it's more often you get the vibe that Irish people who don't speak the language are the "foreigners". Hence the veiled or overt calls of West Brit. You'll hear that far more than any claims that Irish speakers aren't Irish.
I take your perception that Irish people who don't speak the language can be made to feel less Irish but I would say the elitist snobbery tends to come from picker-uppers of the language and not Native speakers. (I'm a picker-upper myself and I do slag my husband for being a West Brit, but he is also amoured with the Royal family :rolleyes:) I do think the more 'evocative' language from both sides of the argument tends to disimprove the quality of these discussions. And although people may not claim that Irish speakers aren't Irish, many of the arguments on this thread do take as given that Irish is less important to our culture than English is. This opinion seems far more widely held than 'the non-Gaeilgeoirs are West Brits' one, and it is just as bigoted in my opinion.
The thing to remember here that the majority of us are simply being rational and saying let the kid decide for him or herself. What's wrong with choice?
It's not that I want to punish kids. I just think of myself after the JC. Irish was my weakest subject, if I'd been given the option I know I wouldn't have picked it. The education system is too point driven. Even if 1 out of every 50 kids gain something from it, I think it's worth keeping. (Obviously the ratio is far higher). It doesn't infer I'm being a dictator to the 49 that wouldn't. There aren't a high percentage of kids that continue with Mathematical studies or ever use anything learnt in LC Maths but again, even if it was only 1 out of 50 it would be worth it for the one in my opinion. If they made either of these subjects non-compulsory educators would have to lower the standard of the higher level course to attract more candidates. People in the Gaeltacht would indeed see their culture devalued. If it is made non-compulsory, if we agree with the Equal Status Act English would be made non-compulsory too. I have no issue with the opinion that all subjects should be optional though I disagree with it for practical reasons. I do have an issue with the argument that Irish should be made non-compulsory while English remains compulsory. I perceive this as cultural bias, oooh, and carrying an element of "lingocide" I do still love the English language.
No. You can have Mayo, though. Please take Mayo.
Oi, leave Mayo alone. :eek: New thread please!
P.S:
See Stephen Fry on youtube. He's a cool dude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_07-ApFV0w Although Donegal is the biggest Gaeltacht and Irish doesn't have less words than English. Still, the fuzzy feeling you get in your belly listening to non-nationals talking fondly about Irish is a quick leigheas to any Gaeilge lovers gortaithe by comments on these threads.
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I don't think you can blame Irish for any shortfalls in students knowledge of French or Scientific subjects for that matter. Students that do honours Irish, as you might expect, tend to do honours Maths as well.
This is entirely anecdotal, but that's not the case in my experience. When I did the Leaving Cert there was one higher Irish class and one higher maths class and there wasn't that much overlap in who did both subjects. I can also say that Irish is such an intensive course that I had to drop to ordinary level at a late stage because the workload was too much. After dropping, I didn't spend a day studying Irish because I just didn't have time.Even if 1 out of every 50 kids gain something from it, I think it's worth keeping. (Obviously the ratio is far higher). It doesn't infer I'm being a dictator to the 49 that wouldn't. There aren't a high percentage of kids that continue with Mathematical studies or ever use anything learnt in LC Maths but again, even if it was only 1 out of 50 it would be worth it for the one in my opinion. If they made either of these subjects non-compulsory educators would have to lower the standard of the higher level course to attract more candidates. People in the Gaeltacht would indeed see their culture devalued. If it is made non-compulsory, if we agree with the Equal Status Act English would be made non-compulsory too. I have no issue with the opinion that all subjects should be optional though I disagree with it for practical reasons. I do have an issue with the argument that Irish should be made non-compulsory while English remains compulsory. I perceive this as cultural bias, oooh, and carrying an element of "lingocide" I do still love the English language.
While I think the maths course does need some revisions, it isn't accurate to compare it to the Irish course. There are economic reasons for keeping maths compulsory. Any university course in commerce, science or engineering WILL require LC maths and these are the ones the government is pushing now because they are the best employment areas in the country. In any case, the maths course at the moment for people who do not go on to study any of those subjects is largely to improve students' ability to think analytically and logically. I haven't studied Project Maths at all but as I understand, it's a lot more practical than the previous course too.
I would be a bit more on the fence about keeping English compulsory (at least as an exam subject) but the English course is also very different to the Irish one. Almost everyone who takes LC English can speak and write perfectly fine when they want to, the course is about studying literature and developing a writing style, it's not really about the language itself. Irish is about the language. My Irish teacher (who was a very good teacher) constantly pushed the point that it doesn't matter if the story in your essay was awful, all that matters is that you show the examiner that you have a good grasp of the language and this was or the higher level paper. Even the poetry and prose were just about being able to understand the questions and form an answer, there was none of the level of detail you get in studying the comparative or single text in English. The Irish course was very similar to the German/French course in how you had to think and learn.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59225
Sorry, maybe Catalan isn't an ideal argument. And not even an original one apparently.
naw M it's not you, it's just that Catalan is brought up on a regular basis as a comparison, but it's not even close to one given the vast numbers who actually speak it. It's not a "hobby"/tiny minority/compulsory education language
Funny enough it's also an example that comes up from time to timeHebrew was more 'dead' than Irish (though that's a highly reductive term) and now it's a National language.
:D. There are many reasons for it's success, most of all the building of a new country that required a common language for it' immigrant citizens from all over the world. We already have a common language here.
Well Mr Fry while being a wonderful and erudite man does tend towards the over sensitivity, luvviness and hyperbole of his trade. Lingocide as he terms it has gone on since man first strung a a line of whistles and grunts together in some semblance of grammatical order. Languages die out, or change all the time. With few exceptions. Chinese would be close to one in that it's rate of change is very slow compared to say English or indeed Irish. Bardic Irish would be hard to grasp for even a native Irish speaker. Old Irish even more so.Stephen Fry speaks about the decline of minority languages as "lingocide". I quite like that. I don't think something being in danger of dying out is a reason to abandon it. I'm too sleepy to read back over your posts so I don't know if that's what you're advocating, apologies if it's not.
I certainly would not advocate abandoning the language. However I would remove much of it's protected status in law, education and funding. This would include removing it as a compulsory subject in secondary education. I'd have no issue at all keeping for primary. That should be enough to engender a love for the language in those who would feel that.
That ahs been my experience too. The nouveau Gaelgoiri tend to have much more of a chip on the shoulder about it than native speakers. A deflection of personal guilt about themselves and their culture? Who knows. That said one other poster who had direct experience of going out with a native speaker found them to be way more militant so individuals differ I suppose.I take your perception that Irish people who don't speak the language can be made to feel less Irish but I would say the elitist snobbery tends to come from picker-uppers of the language and not Native speakers.
+1I do think the more 'evocative' language from both sides of the argument tends to disimprove the quality of these discussions.
Well as a language, a method of communication it is more important to our culture. This is a pretty unassailable view. The wealth of output in the arts and sciences and wider culture by Irish people doing so through English dwarfes similar output as Gaelige. Part of it's problem is that it's called English, with all the bad odour that follows that word, though it's no longer a language that belongs to England the country.And although people may not claim that Irish speakers aren't Irish, many of the arguments on this thread do take as given that Irish is less important to our culture than English is. This opinion seems far more widely held than 'the non-Gaeilgeoirs are West Brits' one, and it is just as bigoted in my opinion.
I agree.The thing to remember here that the majority of us are simply being rational and saying let the kid decide for him or herself. What's wrong with choice?
Eh it kinda does. That's nothing against Irish, it's just that English has one of the biggest vocabs of any language on the planet.Irish doesn't have less words than English.
One could suggest that's a very "Irish" way to look at things. It seems we still have the tendency to look outside to justify our own confidences. We're not alone in that, the Brits do it too, but we're among the worst for it as a nation.Still, the fuzzy feeling you get in your belly listening to non-nationals talking fondly about Irish is a quick leigheas to any Gaeilge lovers gortaithe by comments on these threads.Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.
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"Well as a language, a method of communication it is more important to our culture. This is a pretty unassailable view. The wealth of output in the arts and sciences and wider culture by Irish people doing so through English dwarfes similar output as Gaelige. Part of it's problem is that it's called English, with all the bad odour that follows that word, though it's no longer a language that belongs to England the country."
I agree that more people speak English presently. But to say that our output in the Arts and Sciences is overwhelmingly English-based is completely untrue! I respectfully disagree sir. It is most definitely overwhelmingly Irish-based. Certainly the Arts are. Surely everyone knows that? Don't they?
I think an English person might be insulted by you claiming English does not belong to them. Of course it does. Places like Australia and America have a massive British heritage. Most post-colonial peoples who are not of British descent; all over Africa and the Middle-East have managed to keep their language. We are an exception to the rule, not the norm. There's nothing normal about lingo-suicide. 0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59225
Are you serious? Maybe we're confusing different things here, or living in a parallel dimension.I agree that more people speak English presently. But to say that our output in the Arts and Sciences is overwhelmingly English-based is completely untrue! I respectfully disagree sir. It is most definitely overwhelmingly Irish-based. Certainly the Arts are. Surely everyone knows that? Don't they?
The sciences have feck all, I mean damn near zero output as Gaelige. It hasn't been a language of higher learning since the 1600's. Try doing a doctorate in say engineering exclusively through the language. About the only university level course you can take in Irish is further study of the language itself. Commerce? Overwhelmingly through English except in very small proportions of local transactions. Arts? Some of the greatest writers in any language of the last 200 years have been Irish people writing in English. This continues to the present. The vast majority of commercial publishing output in this nation and exported from this nation is as Bearla. Take school textbooks out of the mix and it would be truly miniscule. Theatre? Small minority output. Film? Beyond made for TG4 stuff again tiny. Music? More output there, but beyond Enya throwing a cupla focal in her soundscapes there's eff all Irish language pop/rock/contemporary music by comparison.
No it really doesn't bar the name. It's a truly international language. Spanish and French would be similar. There are a great multitude of english speakers that aren't English. Indeed the vast majority aren't*. Many times more people speak english as their native language than live in or have an ancestral link to England. Ditto for French and Spanish.I think an English person might be insulted by you claiming English does not belong to them. Of course it does.
In that case so have we. More indeed. These two islands have been joined at the hip for nigh on 8000 years with influence going back and forth throughout that time. By your argument we're significantly more "British" than Australia and America. We're not by the way and neither are they beyond the very surface. The amount of Americans who could claim British ancestry is pretty tiny. There are far more Irish, French, Scandinavian, Polish, German, Hispanic, Jewish, Italian, African etc populations. All speaking English(and Spanish). Australia would have more, but also has big Chinese, Italian, Greek and native populations and indeed Irish, Scots and Welsh.Places like Australia and America have a massive British heritage.
Some have, some have not, some are bilingual. EG there is an awful lot of French and English spoken in the African continent, either as a primary language or a lingua franca.Most post-colonial peoples who are not of British descent; all over Africa and the Middle-East have managed to keep their language.
The rule is that over time some languages thrive, some die out. Most die out. The better communications became, or empires spread this was played out throughout human history. There was at least one ancient language here before Irish and it's no more. Just the barest hints of it's survival in some rare Irish words. Scotland had IIRC three distinct Pictish languages. In that case it was us the Irish who went over there and on the back of the sword or the cross or the coin replaced it with Irish(Scots Gaelic). We even changed the very name of the country itself. It became "little Ireland" Scotia Minor. It went from Caledonia(in the Roman mind) to the land of the "Scotti" which refers to one name of Irish people. English took out other languages on the back of the Saxon invasions. Swings and roundabouts. It depends on your times. I mean it would have been a lot more useful to have Irish in the 8th century than Saxon as there would have been fewer of the latter speaking it and significantly fewer of the educated class. Very very few languages have survived this. Basque is pretty much the only one in Europe that has avoided cultural "contamination" and extinction for the longest time(it's totally unrelated to any indo European language and likely has very ancient roots.)We are an exception to the rule, not the norm. There's nothing normal about lingo-suicide.
Short answer, languages develop, grow and usually die off, it just depends how quickly.
*It's why I scratch my head when people suggest learning Mandarin as a useful language. I'll make a prediction. It'll never be an international language. As it is it's widely spoken but in the vast vast majority of cases by Chinese folks. Plus it's unnecessarily complicated and tonal, so a nightmare to pick up for non natives.Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.
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I agree that more people speak English presently. But to say that our output in the Arts and Sciences is overwhelmingly English-based is completely untrue! I respectfully disagree sir. It is most definitely overwhelmingly Irish-based. Certainly the Arts are. Surely everyone knows that? Don't they?
How do you figure? How many internationally known poems, plays, songs or books were written in Irish (even if they were later translated)? Or how many scientific papers were done through Irish? This isn't me taking a dig at the Irish language, I just don't see how you could compare our output in Irish to that in EnglishI think an English person might be insulted by you claiming English does not belong to them. Of course it does. Places like Australia and America have a massive British heritage. Most post-colonial peoples who are not of British descent; all over Africa and the Middle-East have managed to keep their language. We are an exception to the rule, not the norm. There's nothing normal about lingo-suicide.
They might be insulted, but it's quite true. The majority of Americans have as much descent in other nationalities as they do in English, many have very little English heritage if any. There are an overwhelming number of Irish, German, Italian, Hispanic and African descendants. Not to mention that English has become a sort of middle language for many other people to speak. A lot of the time if Germans and French (for example) are talking, they will do so through English because its a common second language for European and Asian countries. It's why English was retained as the first language of Singapore.
Most of the other colonies don't get the same practical benefits out of speaking the same language as their invaders. They don't depend on them for trade like we do, or have the geographical convenience where they need to communicate with the English regularly.0
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