The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Festus · 26-03-2012 4:17pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And you have been given a clear example of things that can occur with no apparent cause, but you seem to be pretending it hasn't happened.

No. The tiny laser caused it.

Or maybe a big laser

Apololgies if this is a bit simplistic but I'm sure if you really want to know you can do the research on how lasers and laser projectors work in your own time.

http://www.laserfx.com/FAQ/FAQ2.html

http://www.instructables.com/id/Laser-Image-Projector/

Monty Burnz · 26-03-2012 5:03pm

Festus wrote: »

No. The tiny laser caused it.

Or maybe a big laser

The example was at the quantum level, not the laser stuff. I learned how lasers worked when I was 10, but thanks for the links.

So how about addressing the causeless events that occur in quantum mechanics, without the (bizarre) defence that it doesn't count because it is small?

Wh1stler · 26-03-2012 5:28pm

Festus wrote: »

No. The tiny laser caused it.

The point is (no pun intended) that the images created by the laser point never actually exist. Never.

And yet we see the images.

Quantum fluctuations are similar in some respects to the laser point; we can't look at a laser generated image and know where the point is at any given time.

In other words, tiny quantum fluctuations caused it.

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 7:07pm

Wh1stler wrote: »

If there is any truth in the Bible then it is in this verse. It is actually a very beautiful way to put it.

What a pity that they had to confuse the issue by building a bible around it.

Every word of Romans 1:20 could easily be an expression of the nature of vacuum fluctuations; the source of the Universe.

'The sap rises, the sap falls; such is the power of quantum dynamics.'

If God could be defined as the nature of the Universe, for better or worse, for good or bad; no will to be but unable to remain constant then I think atheism would become an amusing relic of the past.

It's much more awesome than your materialistic concept. God created nature; He is not nature, He is infinitely greater.

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Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 7:16pm

Wh1stler wrote: »

If an alien force came to earth in possession superior military technology then religionists would simply claim that it was the result of an interventionist Satan.

It might make some of us reconsider our free-will choices but it needn't call the Bible into question.

UFOs may well be demonic manifestations, and they might indeed present themselves as material aliens. BUT if this occupying force continued to exist over, say, a generation, that would disprove the Bible. It has a very different scenario for Satan's assault at the End.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 7:22pm

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Evolution also destroys the very ground of the Christian worldview aqd makes a mockery of not only Baptism but the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. Im not God but I find it hard to believe that any evolutionist will be saved outside of children who died before they were in a position to question properly.

Interesting point about authentic alien life. So called Alien vistitations fit into a records of demonic activity from the past.

People, including Christians, can hold self-contradictory beliefs. Sleight-of-mind reasoning does the trick. So I'm hopeful for many of our theistic evolutionist brethren.

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2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 7:29pm

tommy2bad said:

Quote:
wolfsbane ;
Creationist scientists do not just say, 'God did it'. They go on to advance scientific argument to support the assertion that God did it.
No, they torture the truth until it admits they are right.
Come on, you cant really believe that God wouldn't leave out things that have no part of the story that the bible tells? If you believe, as I do btw, that it is the revelation of God's relationship to man, what has evolution or alien life to do with that narrative?

The narrative is an opposing account of origins to that of evolution. It also, with further information from the rest of the Bible, describes man's position with regard to God. Other creations simply do not fit with the Biblical account.

Quote:
Evolution is contrary to the Scriptures, so I agree with your point that many Christians have been able to fit it in their faith. But they do so in desperation,
Thats just laughable, its the creationists who are desperate.

We know we are right, so no need for desperation. At best, you guys think it likely you are right. But scientific assurance has failed before - indeed, that is its boast.

**************************************************************************
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sonics2k · 26-03-2012 7:36pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

UFOs may well be demonic manifestations, and they might indeed present themselves as material aliens. BUT if this occupying force continued to exist over, say, a generation, that would disprove the Bible. It has a very different scenario for Satan's assault at the End.

Oh come on! This has got to be a joke!

tommy2bad · 26-03-2012 7:38pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

People, including Christians, can hold self-contradictory beliefs. Sleight-of-mind reasoning does the trick. So I'm hopeful for many of our theistic evolutionist brethren.

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2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

I always think that the tension between two opposing truths is where faith lies.
Slight of mind? not at all, Believing that people who hold evolution to be true are damned or that aliens are demonic? Now thats slight of mind, in the sense of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slight

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 8:34pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Have you ever seen a cedar move? Nor have I. The leaves and twigs move in the wind. Occasionally, in a very strong wind, a branch might move.

Do you have any reason to think that the passage refers to the whole tree? A tree that does not move?

So the picture could have used a shrub instead of a cedar? Don't you think size was the point? All the other aspects highlighted the magnificence of the beast. Waving its tail like a twig doesn't do much for that.

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Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 8:51pm

Cossax said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Yes, it now accepts evolution - of a sort. It insists Adam & Eve are real and I assume it holds to much of the Genesis account subsequent to them. So no humans descended from other than that one pair - hardly in line with the evolutionary scenario, as far as I understand it.

No, one is an expansion of the other. Two accounts, but complimentary rather than contradictory.
One says humans were made last, the other says man was made before all the other animals. Doesn't sound very complimentary to me.

Depends on how one reads it. If the animals have already been created and are then brought to Adam, it squares with the Genesis 1 account. Otherwise the accounts directly contradict. Is it likely that an author would place such a plain contradiction immediately following his first account?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I suppose you can say that with a clear conscience - if you presuppose that anything raised against evolution is ipso facto non-scientific.

But the fact remains that well-qualified scientists research and publish lots of scientific articles that show evolution is suspect and that creationism is at least an alternative theory. For example, check this journal:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arj
There's nothing very scientific about it.

The rationalwiki article you linked to is the normal evolutionary propaganda. Attacking fellow-scientists in such a manner is not of course confined to attacks on creationists, but is common enough in inter-evolutionary spats. Ego is a big problem for humans, and scientific education does nothing to lessen it.

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1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 8:55pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

I always think that the tension between two opposing truths is where faith lies.
Slight of mind? not at all, Believing that people who hold evolution to be true are damned or that aliens are demonic? Now thats slight of mind, in the sense of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slight

So you know for sure aliens (if there are any) are not demonic? Please share with us your grounds for this belief.

You belief in opposing truths says a lot.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Wh1stler · 26-03-2012 10:11pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It gets better and better; the God of truth will lie?

You really must make up your mind. Or God must.

Cossax · 27-03-2012 12:02am

wolfsbane wrote: »

Cossax said:

Depends on how one reads it. If the animals have already been created and are then brought to Adam, it squares with the Genesis 1 account. Otherwise the accounts directly contradict. Is it likely that an author would place such a plain contradiction immediately following his first account?

Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Fairly unambiguous I'd have thought. I don't know why it'd be contradictory, maybe different writers/editors, but it is contradictory.

wolfsbane wrote: »

The rationalwiki article you linked to is the normal evolutionary propaganda. Attacking fellow-scientists in such a manner is not of course confined to attacks on creationists, but is common enough in inter-evolutionary spats. Ego is a big problem for humans, and scientific education does nothing to lessen it.

Evolutionary propaganda? Really?
There is nothing scientific about creationism, it is something entirely built on the Bible/faith - the least those who believe in it could do is be upfront about that instead of trying to coat it in some pseudo-scientific language.

Wh1stler · 27-03-2012 2:12am

wolfsbane wrote: »

So you know for sure aliens (if there are any) are not demonic? Please share with us your grounds for this belief.

If we do have visitors, I hope that you are not part of the welcoming committee.

Sin City · 27-03-2012 7:18am

wolfsbane wrote: »

tommy2bad wrote: »

I always think that the tension between two opposing truths is where faith lies.
Slight of mind? not at all, Believing that people who hold evolution to be true are damned or that aliens are demonic? Now thats slight of mind, in the sense of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slight

So you know for sure aliens (if there are any) are not demonic? Please share with us your grounds for this belief.

You belief in opposing truths says a lot.

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[COLOR="Blue"]2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/COLOR]

why would aliens be demonic?

I mean technicaly wouldnt God be classed as an alien?

lmaopml · 27-03-2012 9:22am

Zombrex wrote: »

Personally I think Nethanderals should have destroyed the human centric Christian view of the universe, but to each their own.

Just a tad extreme..:pac:

We're a while off from discovering sentient life - any life really....So I wouldn't worry too much about it. If we discover alien neanderthals somewhere out there you could always emigrate..:P

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 9:37am

wolfsbane wrote: »

So the picture could have used a shrub instead of a cedar? Don't you think size was the point? All the other aspects highlighted the magnificence of the beast. Waving its tail like a twig doesn't do much for that.

*********************************************************************
Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

So it moves its tail like something that doesn't move? And you think that makes more sense?

'The dog wagged his tail like a mountain'? LOL

Or perhaps it is actually descriptive, and describes how a rhinoceros or hippopotamus flicks its tail like a twitching tree branch?

This introduces a new big problem for you - if we accept that the animal is described using figurative language (as you claim) then all of your other claims about the description must surely be considered figurative too, while you have been claiming them to be factual.

So it either describes a rhino/hippo, or the whole thing is just an exercise in figurative language that could be describing anything.

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 9:40am

wolfsbane wrote: »

So you know for sure aliens (if there are any) are not demonic? Please share with us your grounds for this belief.

You belief in opposing truths says a lot.

********************************************************************
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This idea has already been thrashed out by author James Blish in a book called A Case of Conscience. You should read it.

tommy2bad · 27-03-2012 10:36am

Many reacted negatively to the story, but surprisingly few educated Catholics were among them. One even sent James Blish a copy of the actual Church guidelines for dealing with extraterrestrials.

Thats from the wiki link that Monty Burnz posted;
The RCC have guidelines for extraterrestrials,:eek: too much time on their hands.....

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 11:58am

lmaopml wrote: »

Just a tad extreme..:pac:

We're a while off from discovering sentient life - any life really....So I wouldn't worry too much about it. If we discover alien neanderthals somewhere out there you could always emigrate..:P

Er, not sure you quite understood the point I was making. We have already discovered non-human sentient life, it is just extinct now. Not mentioned in the Bible, oddly enough.

Festus · 27-03-2012 12:34pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The example was at the quantum level, not the laser stuff. I learned how lasers worked when I was 10, but thanks for the links.

So how about addressing the causeless events that occur in quantum mechanics, without the (bizarre) defence that it doesn't count because it is small?

Define quantum mechanics. Would you agree that it is mathematical?

It's not that it doesn't account because it is small. It doesn't count because it does not extrapolate.
You are presenting a argument based on the appearance and disappearance of "stuff" from "nothing" based on probablility and statistics and described by some very exotic mathematics.

To put it bluntly quantum mechanics while a very interesting and very valid science it is conceptual. What you are presenting is an observation and a explanation from quantum thoery.
That the effects you are describing are observable and measurable is as a result of the cause that the universe exists.
However there is a big problem with what you are suggesting. Time.
If you want your pseudoscience to stick you are going to have to prove that time existed along with something non-empty before the big bang.

So we are back to square one. What caused the Universe to exist in the first place? The Big Bang.
What caused the Big Bang?

Festus · 27-03-2012 12:38pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Er, not sure you quite understood the point I was making. We have already discovered non-human sentient life, it is just extinct now. Not mentioned in the Bible, oddly enough.

Citations please? And do note that if the genus is homo then the classification would be human.

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 12:49pm

Festus wrote: »

Citations please? And do note that if the genus is homo then the classification would be human.

No, humans are Homo sapiens. Homo neanderthalensis are Neanderthals. Different species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_neanderthalensis

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 2:50pm

Festus wrote: »

So we are back to square one. What caused the Universe to exist in the first place? The Big Bang.
What caused the Big Bang?

Quick phone answer to your post: what caused God? We already know that you can accept that things can happen without a cause, otherwise you would not believe in a causeless God: therefore this is as big a problem for your argument as it is for that of science.

Festus · 27-03-2012 3:27pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Quick phone answer to your post: what caused God? We already know that you can accept that things can happen without a cause, otherwise you would not believe in a causeless God: therefore this is as big a problem for your argument as it is for that of science.

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

Festus · 27-03-2012 3:30pm

Zombrex wrote: »

No, humans are Homo sapiens. Homo neanderthalensis are Neanderthals. Different species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_neanderthalensis

Perhaps you missed this line - it's near the start:

Neanderthals are classified either as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate human species (Homo neanderthalensis)

So you see - Human

Now, what other non human sentient beings did you have in mind?

Or are you confusing Star Trek with real life again.

Morbert · 27-03-2012 3:34pm

Festus wrote: »

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

Why is there a God rather than nothing?

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 3:41pm

Festus wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Quick phone answer to your post: what caused God? We already know that you can accept that things can happen without a cause, otherwise you would not believe in a causeless God: therefore this is as big a problem for your argument as it is for that of science.

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

Silly argument. You are begging the question as to how God (or Gods) exist without a beginning, and are further assuming that the universe has a beginning.

Festus · 27-03-2012 3:42pm

Morbert wrote: »

Why is there a God rather than nothing?

Because the universe had a beginning

Festus · 27-03-2012 3:43pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Silly argument. You are begging the question as to how God (or Gods) exist without a beginning, and are further assuming that the universe has a beginning.

Prove the universe had no beginning.

HamletOrHecuba · 27-03-2012 3:52pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

The RCC have guidelines for extraterrestrials,:eek: too much time on their hands.....

Are you serious?

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 3:58pm

Festus wrote: »

So you see - Human

Are homo neanderthalens homo sapiens? (hint, the clue is in the name).

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 3:59pm

Festus wrote: »

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

Can you detail how something can have a cause without time itself existing.

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 4:00pm

Festus wrote: »

Because the universe had a beginning

So God exists so he can create the universe? Who decided that?

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 4:02pm

Festus wrote: »

Everything that has a begining has a cause.

What are you basing that on?

Can you detail something that began to exist and then explain what caused this to happen. Something that actually began to exist, not a simple re-arrangement of things that already existed to form a new type of thing.

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 4:15pm

Festus wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Silly argument. You are begging the question as to how God (or Gods) exist without a beginning, and are further assuming that the universe has a beginning.

Prove the universe had no beginning.

Prove that it did.
Prove that God exists.

Very silly argument, in my opinion.

Morbert · 27-03-2012 5:02pm

Festus wrote: »

Because the universe had a beginning

The beginning of the universe explains why there is a God rather than nothing?

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 6:00pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This idea has already been thrashed out by author James Blish in a book called A Case of Conscience. You should read it.

Read it about 50 years ago.

Doesn't deal with the possibility that aliens are actually common or garden demons, as far as I can remember.

And that is the sole possibility, given the Scriptural background, in my opinion. Those of you who believe in evolution have a logical reason to expect material aliens in abundance.

******************************************************************
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 6:12pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So it moves its tail like something that doesn't move? And you think that makes more sense?

'The dog wagged his tail like a mountain'? LOL

Or perhaps it is actually descriptive, and describes how a rhinoceros or hippopotamus flicks its tail like a twitching tree branch?

This introduces a new big problem for you - if we accept that the animal is described using figurative language (as you claim) then all of your other claims about the description must surely be considered figurative too, while you have been claiming them to be factual.

So it either describes a rhino/hippo, or the whole thing is just an exercise in figurative language that could be describing anything.

Yes, a tail like a cedar in size is moved by the beast. Seems plain enough to me.

So use of metaphor in a description must mean all of the thing described is metaphorical??? 'Ali danced like a butterfly, but stung like a bee' - can't be speaking of a real man???

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Job 40:“Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 See now, his strength is in his hips,
And his power is in his stomach muscles.
17 He moves his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.
18 His bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 6:28pm

Sin City wrote: »

why would aliens be demonic?

I mean technicaly wouldnt God be classed as an alien?

They would be demonic because they can't be material - other material beings not mentioned in Scripture - and only demons (fallen angels) are prophesied as coming to deceive mankind.

God is certainly not part of any creation. But by alien I mean a creature not from this world.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Corkfeen · 27-03-2012 6:43pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

They would be demonic because they can't be material - other material beings not mentioned in Scripture - and only demons (fallen angels) are prophesied as coming to deceive mankind.

God is certainly not part of any creation. But by alien I mean a creature not from this world.

Bloody Hell. Alien life hasn't even been discovered as of yet but you're already set on creating a new form of intolerance(a continuation of xenophobia)...... So just because they didn't mention it in the bible, it must be an evil demon..... I didn't ever think I'd read something so absurd. I guess someone calling quantum mechanics a pseudoscience in a topic where he claims that creationism is a real science is a bit more absurd... Admittedly that was Festus but I have a feeling that you'd concur with him.

mark renton · 27-03-2012 6:56pm

Your logic seems to be flawed

Festus wrote: »

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

This would imply that God having no beginning has no cause

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 7:03pm

Cossax said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Depends on how one reads it. If the animals have already been created and are then brought to Adam, it squares with the Genesis 1 account. Otherwise the accounts directly contradict. Is it likely that an author would place such a plain contradiction immediately following his first account?
Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Fairly unambiguous I'd have thought. I don't know why it'd be contradictory, maybe different writers/editors, but it is contradictory.

The Hebrew can be rendered as 'made' or 'had made', as the ESV tranlates:
Genesis 2:19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. That makes sense of the whole passage. Even in secular literature one should not expect so blatant a contradiction in so short a space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The rationalwiki article you linked to is the normal evolutionary propaganda. Attacking fellow-scientists in such a manner is not of course confined to attacks on creationists, but is common enough in inter-evolutionary spats. Ego is a big problem for humans, and scientific education does nothing to lessen it.
Evolutionary propaganda? Really?
There is nothing scientific about creationism, it is something entirely built on the Bible/faith - the least those who believe in it could do is be upfront about that instead of trying to coat it in some pseudo-scientific language.

Writing off the scientists who dissent from your theory is not good science. It drags down science into ideology and partisanship.

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Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

23 And Adam said:

“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 7:11pm

Corkfeen wrote: »

Bloody Hell. Alien life hasn't even been discovered as of yet but you're already set on creating a new form of intolerance(a continuation of xenophobia)...... So just because they didn't mention it in the bible, it must be an evil demon..... I didn't ever think I'd read something so absurd. I guess someone calling quantum mechanics a pseudoscience in a topic where he claims that creationism is a real science is a bit more absurd... Admittedly that was Festus but I have a feeling that you'd concur with him.

The Bible is God's revelation of all we need to know for a righteous and holy life. If we were to encounter material aliens, we have no instructions as to how to deal with them. No commandment to love them as ourselves ( they are not fellow-men), nor permission to eat them (they are not part of this animal creation). God has not left us in such ignorance.

The only sentient beings outside of ourselves are the angels. The holy angels will not be appearing as aliens, telling us they are material beings from another world. Holy angels do not lie. But fallen angels do. Fallen angels = demons.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 7:15pm

Wh1stler wrote: »

It gets better and better; the God of truth will lie?

You really must make up your mind. Or God must.

The text does not say God lies. It says He gives men over to delusion, so that they will believe this final, monstrous lie of Satan. As a judgement for not believing the truth He send them in the gospel.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

tommy2bad · 27-03-2012 7:23pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

The Bible is God's revelation of all we need to know for a righteous and holy life.
No problem with that bit.
If we were to encounter material aliens, we have no instructions as to how to deal with them. No commandment to love them as ourselves ( they are not fellow-men), nor permission to eat them (they are not part of this animal creation). God has not left us in such ignorance.
Unless He gave them permission to eat us
The only sentient beings outside of ourselves are the angels. The holy angels will not be appearing as aliens, telling us they are material beings from another world. Holy angels do not lie. But fallen angels do. Fallen angels = demons.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I just find it strange that you would preclude something on the grounds that it isn't in a book written a few thousand years ago. God didn't mention zippers or Internet or -and I might agree as to them being the devils work- iPods.

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 7:39pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, a tail like a cedar in size is moved by the beast. Seems plain enough to me.
<snip>
17 He moves his tail like a cedar;

So you are saying that the passage actually means 'he moves his tail (which is like a cedar in size)'? Perhaps we could have a look at the original language and see what that says?

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 7:44pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

I just find it strange that you would preclude something on the grounds that it isn't in a book written a few thousand years ago. God didn't mention zippers or Internet or -and I might agree as to them being the devils work- iPods.

The Bible is not a 'dated' book - it is the word of God. He is not ignorant of all that comes to pass - indeed, He alone permits or prevents anything from happening.

Technology is technology - it differs from age to age, but is still just tools and constructions. Sentient life is quite another matter. It was created in the beginning, and described in Genesis.

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Lamentations 3:37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass,
When the Lord has not commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That woe and well-being proceed?

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 7:51pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

The Bible is not a 'dated' book - it is the word of God. He is not ignorant of all that comes to pass - indeed, He alone permits or prevents anything from happening.

To be fair, if that is the case he had some very strange ideas about astronomy and some other areas (in addition to evolution). Why did he say that the earth does not move, when it moves through space and also spins around its own axis?

Psalms 93:1 "The Lord reigns, he is clothed with majesty; The Lord is clothed, He has girded Himself with strength. Surely the world is established so that it cannot be moved."

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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