The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

tommy2bad

Festus ;
So still no evidence of how this life you believe in on some planet ina goldilocks zone is going to arise.

No but theirs an example of it happening here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
If it happened once, it can happen again.

Festus

tommy2bad wrote: »

No but theirs an example of it happening here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
If it happened once, it can happen again.

and how did life start there?

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

Evidence of a planet in a goldlocks zone is not evidence of life, is it.

I've flipped a coin a thousand times. You have not seen the results of this flipping, but I still ask you is it reasonable to believe that at least one of those times the coin come up heads?

The answer would seem to be yes, very reasonable given that the alternative, that I flip the coin 1000 time and every single time it is tails, seems rather improbable.

If you said yes though I would ask how do you have evidence for this given that I haven't shown you the results of a single coin toss yet? Surely you cannot have any evidence for what any of the coins are until you have seen the results of the tosses.

Of course in actual fact you can because you can use evidence of both the nature of the coin and the amount of times I was flipping it to make a very reasonable conclusion that at least one of those 1000 flips the coin will have landed heads. You cannot demonstrate this with certainty without the results, but it is hardly "faith" to believe that has happened.

Anyone who doesn't think life has arisen else where in the universe is either greatly over estimating how difficult it is for life to arise on a planet, or greatly underestimating the size of the universe (in my experience it tends to be the latter, since the actual size of the universe is so huge as to make it very difficult to properly comprehend).

mark renton

Zombrex wrote: »

(in my experience it tends to be the latter, since the actual size of the universe is so huge as to make it very difficult to properly comprehend).

tis big

tommy2bad

john47832 wrote: »

tis big

So needs a 'yo moma

Festus

Zombrex wrote: »

I've flipped a coin a thousand times. You have not seen the results of this flipping, but I still ask you is it reasonable to believe that at least one of those times the coin come up heads?

The answer would seem to be yes, very reasonable given that the alternative, that I flip the coin 1000 time and every single time it is tails, seems rather improbable.

If you said yes though I would ask how do you have evidence for this given that I haven't shown you the results of a single coin toss yet? Surely you cannot have any evidence for what any of the coins are until you have seen the results of the tosses.

Of course in actual fact you can because you can use evidence of both the nature of the coin and the amount of times I was flipping it to make a very reasonable conclusion that at least one of those 1000 flips the coin will have landed heads. You cannot demonstrate this with certainty without the results, but it is hardly "faith" to believe that has happened.

Anyone who doesn't think life has arisen else where in the universe is either greatly over estimating how difficult it is for life to arise on a planet, or greatly underestimating the size of the universe (in my experience it tends to be the latter, since the actual size of the universe is so huge as to make it very difficult to properly comprehend).

isn't appeal to probability a logical fallacy?

that said...

I know how to flip a coin.

I do not know how life began.

do you?

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

isn't appeal to probability a logical fallacy?

Depends on what you are trying to demonstrate.

Festus wrote: »

I know how to flip a coin.

I do not know how life began.

do you?

I've a fairly good idea. The conditions of the early Earth seem ideal for producing self replicating molecules, of which there are a limited number of varieties.

Sin City

Ok, the Christians among us here answer me this question. If ye believe that God put us on this planet and formed space and other planets light years away and different galaxies and different universe sand had space going on for an infinity and the only life he had ever created was on earth why have anything beyond earth? what would be the point or is it just some pyrotechnics to keep him amused?

Wouldnt an equally valid hypothesis is that God played no hand in the formantion of the universe through billions of years of evolution and possible a high degree of chance that life did evolve on this planet.

It is true that no one knows for certain the how life came to be , ie simple ,microbial life although there have been many many theories (most more substantial than a man with a big white beard was messing with his new chemistry set when he accidentdly dropped a vial) some which are radical like exogenesis or even that life actually originated a multitude of times. But these are all valid hypothesis and not just saying that God did it

tommy2bad

Sin City ;
why have anything beyond earth?

Sure why not?

Sin City

tommy2bad wrote: »

Sure why not?

Why not indeedd
Maybe God was a stoner and like all the pretty colours:D:D

tommy2bad

Sin City wrote: »

Why not indeedd
Maybe God was a stoner and like all the pretty colours:D:D

Or just creative and had to keep on creating, who knows maybe He hasn't finished yet

Festus

Zombrex wrote: »

Depends on what you are trying to demonstrate.

I'm not the one attempting to present an argument based on probablility.

Zombrex wrote: »

I've a fairly good idea. The conditions of the early Earth seem ideal for producing self replicating molecules, of which there are a limited number of varieties.

A good idea. Do you think that is enough? Either the mechanism by which life appeared is known or it is not known.
So, do you know or not know how life began?

Either science can answer the question or it cannot. If it can it should do so. If it cannot it should admit that that is the demarcation and it is not even going to bother to find out.
If the latter then it must leave the answer to another area of study.

Festus

Sin City wrote: »

Ok, the Christians among us here answer me this question. If ye believe that God put us on this planet and formed space and other planets light years away and different galaxies and different universe sand had space going on for an infinity and the only life he had ever created was on earth why have anything beyond earth? what would be the point or is it just some pyrotechnics to keep him amused?

Wouldnt an equally valid hypothesis is that God played no hand in the formantion of the universe through billions of years of evolution and possible a high degree of chance that life did evolve on this planet.

It is true that no one knows for certain the how life came to be , ie simple ,microbial life although there have been many many theories (most more substantial than a man with a big white beard was messing with his new chemistry set when he accidentdly dropped a vial) some which are radical like exogenesis or even that life actually originated a multitude of times. But these are all valid hypothesis and not just saying that God did it

Due to the loaded nature of the narrative it would be unfair to describe these as valid hypotheses, or even hypotheses.

Perhaps state the null hypothesis as the Big Bang had a cause.

You can then set about finding the evidence to reject the null hypothesis. A suggested method would be to find other situations where there is an effect with no observable cause and extrapolate.

Sin City

Festus wrote: »

Due to the loaded nature of the narrative it would be unfair to describe these as valid hypotheses, or even hypotheses.

Perhaps state the null hypothesis as the Big Bang had a cause.

You can then set about finding the evidence to reject the null hypothesis. A suggested method would be to find other situations where there is an effect with no observable cause and extrapolate.

Such as quantim physics where particals can appear out of nothing?
That has already been tested and proven.

How about we have a Null Hypothesis that God doesnt exist

Who can find evidence to reject the Null hypothesis

mark renton

:rolleyes:


I do believe your snookered Fetus

Festus

Sin City wrote: »

Such as quantim physics where particals can appear out of nothing?
That has already been tested and proven.

Citations?

Festus

john47832 wrote: »

:rolleyes:


I do believe your snookered Fetus

I do believe your English teacher would be very annoyed with you

Sin City

Festus wrote: »

Citations?

Ill have to go look for them
In the meantime you can watch this

Festus

Sin City wrote: »

Ill have to go look for them
In the meantime you can watch this

Sorry, too busy firing up my particle accelerator to see what effects it can cause and cleaning down my black boards to write up some equations to explain in conceptual terms the anomalies that are observable when particles are banged in to each other at high speed to see if causing an action can cause a particle to effectively appear out of nothing and then see if I can write off the cause as non existent.

Sin City

Festus wrote: »

Sin City wrote: »

Ill have to go look for them
In the meantime you can watch this

Sorry, too busy firing up my particle accelerator to see what effects it can caused and cleaning down my black boards to write up some equations to explain in conceptual terms the anomalies that are observable when particles are banged in to each other at high speed to see if causing an action can cause a particle to effectively appear out of nothing and then see if I can write off the cause as non existent.

at least im making an attempt to justify my beliefs

can the same.be said for a belief in god other than the bible/jesus said so ?

Festus

Sin City wrote: »

at least im making an attempt to justify my beliefs

can the same.be said for a belief in god other than the bible/jesus said so ?

Yes, the same can be said.

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

I'm not the one attempting to present an argument based on probablility.

No, you are the one pondering whether appeals to probability are a logical fallacy. And I pointed out that that depends on what you are trying to demonstrate.

Festus wrote: »

A good idea. Do you think that is enough?

For the question you asked, yup.

Festus wrote: »

Either the mechanism by which life appeared is known or it is not known.
So, do you know or not know how life began?

We don't. But then the question isn't do we know how life began on Earth. The question is do think it I likely that life exists external to Earth.

Festus wrote: »

If the latter then it must leave the answer to another area of study.

Which other areas of study. I hope not one that doesn't have any standards and is thus not bound to admit when it doesn't know something, such as theology?

lmaopml

Why is life out there such a drama?

It seems that sentient life such as ourselves would have been picked up since we started turning on TV sets and radios and sending out and searching for signals of same -

If life exists elsewhere; so what? Other than it would be really exciting?

Cossax

Festus wrote: »

I'm not the one attempting to present an argument based on probablility.



A good idea. Do you think that is enough? Either the mechanism by which life appeared is known or it is not known.
So, do you know or not know how life began?

Either science can answer the question or it cannot. If it can it should do so. If it cannot it should admit that that is the demarcation and it is not even going to bother to find out.
If the latter then it must leave the answer to another area of study.

What kind of world would we live in if humans had followed this line throughout history?

MrPudding

Cossax wrote: »

What kind of world would we live in if humans had followed this line throughout history?

The dark ages.

MrP

Zombrex

lmaopml wrote: »

Why is life out there such a drama?

It seems that sentient life such as ourselves would have been picked up since we started turning on TV sets and radios and sending out and searching for signals of same -

If life exists elsewhere; so what? Other than it would be really exciting?

The more examples of life there are the less special humans appear. The less special humans appear the less justification for the assertion that we are special. Some people don't like that, preferring to think we have a special place in the universe.

Wh1stler

Festus wrote: »

Sorry, too busy firing up my particle accelerator to see what effects it can caused and cleaning down my black boards to write up some equations to explain in conceptual terms the anomalies that are observable when particles are banged in to each other at high speed to see if causing an action can cause a particle to effectively appear out of nothing and then see if I can write off the cause as non existent.

You're not only snookered but you are also in trouble with your English teacher too.

Glass houses etc.

tommy2bad

Zombrex wrote: »

The more examples of life there are the less special humans appear. The less special humans appear the less justification for the assertion that we are special. Some people don't like that, preferring to think we have a special place in the universe.

They might but that wouldnt be biblical.
The bible tells us were screw ups who needed God Himself to fix it. Special? special needs more like.

Zombrex

tommy2bad wrote: »

They might but that wouldnt be biblical.
The bible tells us were screw ups who needed God Himself to fix it. Special? special needs more like.

The Bible states that out of all life God produced humans as special among them, and placed humans as having dominion over all the other animals.

That gets a bit harder to explain when a Kartasian battleship arrives in orbit around us and threatens to glass the surface of the planet. Though I guess at that point people will have bigger things to worry about contradictions of Christian faith :P

Wh1stler

Abraham; he committed adultery with Hagar and is blessed among men.

King Saul; chosen by God. He fails to heed the word of God and ends up out of favour with God.

King David; chosen by the God who handed the commandments down to Moses. David commits adultery and then murder even though he was aware of God's feelings towards Saul and of the reason why. David obviously did not fear God. Or else, God made a king of a fool.

Solomon; practices idolatry by building sacrificial alters for his pagan wife even while he, the wise one, knew about Saul and David. Solomon had no fear of God. Or else, another fool was made king.

The list goes on; a succession of fools hand-picked by God to do His will that cosistently fail Him in spite of the experiences of their fathers and predecessors.

It looks like anyone who had power back then did not believe in the Hebrew God.

And God, in His omniscience, seems unable to back the right horse.

Now we have a Pope, hand-picked by God.

Oh oh! There could be trouble ahead.